Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:58 am

Dragmobot12 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:53 pm Here's my prediction: Elec will die in a western duel style with Granolah, It's impossible for Granolah to lose this one as he is a much faster gunslinger.
How do you think Elec will get himself into a duel with Granolah? Would Granolah coerce him or something?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:50 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:45 am I don't see how the principle behind Spirit Fission is the same as Ultra Ego outside of them being powerful techniques at Vegeta's disposal. There's a narrative foundation behind Ultra Ego. It serves as Vegeta's own path that parallels Goku that was talked about since the Tournament of Power and developed even further during the Moro Arc where Vegeta left for Yardrat to do his own thing separate from Goku.

It also serves as a lesson for Vegeta to forget about the sins of the past while simultaneously having pride in who he is and how his identity as a Saiyan can help move him forward. His discovery of his "own Ultra Ego" allowed him to not be burdened by those sins while having pride in who he was. Whereas in the beginning, Vegeta completely disregarded who he was because of the sins of the past. The conflict between his Saiyan pride and having to cope with the sins of his people because of their Saiyan blood is something that the narrative had been leading up to since the beginning. And that is represented by Ultra Ego. Vegeta's lust for destruction against Granolah led him to Ultra Ego, upon his defeat against Granolah he reflects that "destruction" was not who he was, and then he obtains his "own Ultra Ego" by finally having pride in who he was despite those sins.

With Spirit Fission, the only narrative purpose is for Vegeta to atone for his sins back on Namek by returning the planet's energy back to the Namekians but that's just a temporary plot element and not some overarching narrative that Toyotaro had been slowly developing. We might not see Spirit Fission, but we will definitely see Ultra Ego again.
Predicting where Ultra Ego goes from here and how to overcome its main issue, my guess is that Vegeta's mindset for UE is still flawed in that he equates his battle soul burning (and in turn, the unlimited power he gets from it) too much to willingly eating too much attacks like a masochist rather than to his mind always being focused on destruction like Beerus (who seems to have full mastery of it wherein it's a 24/7 mindset for him so he has no limits to his power) or winning like Bardock. Maybe he'll have to train in a similar way to Goku via being able to use UE (the ability) in his other forms down to his base rather than the purple haired form lol
TKA wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:36 am
theherodjl wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:47 am I think Vegeta suffers from that same I-am-my-own-worst-enemy-and-subsequent-downfall mentality that Thanos is afflicted with. No matter how strong he gets or whatever tricks he learns, Vegeta still finds ways to lose against whichever latest threat and then just accepts his fate no matter how severe the repercussions are. I don't know if it's because of any dysfunctional life lessons he obtained from serving half of his life under Freeza, his Saiyan drive to simply fight before covering all of his bases, or his prideful overconfidence(maybe all of the above?), Vegeta undoubtedly refuses to learn from his defeats and grasp victory when it's there. It might actually be inspirational that he trains so hard and gains so much strength...if not for the fact that he consistently lets challenges overcome him rather than the other way around.
I dunno, maybe Vegeta just likes losing?
Your analysis is lacking.

Vegeta's self-defeating tendencies were settled at the end of the original manga's Buu Ac, where he comes to see the flaws with his world view. Then we got the timeskip to the end of the story, where he's presented as an equal to Goku. That's the story telling you Vegeta has grown as a person and no longer suffers from the mental and emotional shackles he placed himself under.

Him losing in Super isn't really due to any flaw in the character. He's losing because the stories are contrived and the reasons are lackluster. In the Moro arc, he lost just because he wasn't strong enough, which is fine. But every other time in Super, it's because of crazy circumstances nobody could've predicted (re: contrived writing in some cases).
You're generally right on what you say about Vegeta's Super Ls for RoF, FT and Granolah, but I'm not sure if they fit with BoG (his rageboosted SS2 was just weaker than Beerus/he let Goku be the SSG ritual guy), U6 (was just overall unprepared to deal w/ Hit's unknown Time Skip w/o opp to observe, manga adding his SSB being weak from prev going into it), and ToP (his SSBE overall and him teaming up with Goku in the manga just wasn't enough to overpower Jiren).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:37 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:50 pm
Goku9001 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:45 am I don't see how the principle behind Spirit Fission is the same as Ultra Ego outside of them being powerful techniques at Vegeta's disposal. There's a narrative foundation behind Ultra Ego. It serves as Vegeta's own path that parallels Goku that was talked about since the Tournament of Power and developed even further during the Moro Arc where Vegeta left for Yardrat to do his own thing separate from Goku.

It also serves as a lesson for Vegeta to forget about the sins of the past while simultaneously having pride in who he is and how his identity as a Saiyan can help move him forward. His discovery of his "own Ultra Ego" allowed him to not be burdened by those sins while having pride in who he was. Whereas in the beginning, Vegeta completely disregarded who he was because of the sins of the past. The conflict between his Saiyan pride and having to cope with the sins of his people because of their Saiyan blood is something that the narrative had been leading up to since the beginning. And that is represented by Ultra Ego. Vegeta's lust for destruction against Granolah led him to Ultra Ego, upon his defeat against Granolah he reflects that "destruction" was not who he was, and then he obtains his "own Ultra Ego" by finally having pride in who he was despite those sins.

With Spirit Fission, the only narrative purpose is for Vegeta to atone for his sins back on Namek by returning the planet's energy back to the Namekians but that's just a temporary plot element and not some overarching narrative that Toyotaro had been slowly developing. We might not see Spirit Fission, but we will definitely see Ultra Ego again.
Predicting where Ultra Ego goes from here and how to overcome its main issue, my guess is that Vegeta's mindset for UE is still flawed in that he equates his battle soul burning (and in turn, the unlimited power he gets from it) too much to willingly eating too much attacks like a masochist rather than to his mind always being focused on destruction like Beerus (who seems to have full mastery of it wherein it's a 24/7 mindset for him so he has no limits to his power) or winning like Bardock. Maybe he'll have to train in a similar way to Goku via being able to use UE (the ability) in his other forms down to his base rather than the purple haired form lol
I would agree with that. I think it's clear that Vegeta never mastered Ultra Ego since Vegeta's Ultra Ego is meant to parallel Goku's Ultra Instinct. Even when Goku discovered his own Ultra Instinct, it's made clear that he hasn't perfected it and I would think the same applies to Ultra Ego especially if the intention is for Vegeta to continue remaining as a novice to Beerus. I'm also of the belief that Vegeta's Ultra Ego is unique to his own and the mere concept of "Destruction" could manifest itself differently depending on the user. Vegeta's battle spirit intensifying from battle damage may not be out of necessity but his own unique way of how he views "Destruction" which could change as he continues progressing with the form.

I would love to see some unique techniques on how "Destruction" could manifest itself outside of literal Destruction. Beerus even tells Vegeta he has a variety of techniques beyond just Hakai. I would rather see that rather than him applying UE to all forms because as of right now, that seems pretty pointless and counterproductive. Why suffer extreme damage to grow stronger when you could simply just avoid the damage by going to a higher form? It wouldn't make any sense until he alters his perception of "Destruction".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by UiChad55 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:26 pm

It seem like y'all misunderstood this chapter. Let me help some people understand more(you can still feel free to disagree, I'm simply informing).

If you go back & read chapter 60 Goku was most definitely using Emotions in sign. The problem was that he was trying to "Brute Force" UI as a way to gamble into his full potential.

Merus in chapter 60 - "By relying on sheer power alone, he can't make the most of Ultra Instinct's strength"

What Goku is doing in chapter 85 is using the instability that's within sign as an opportunity to draw power from his emotions.

Goku to Gas in chapter 85 - "neither, see I figured out the best transformation to MAKE USE OF MY POWER"

On top of that this is an more accurate & stronger Goku, he literally just found out about his Saiyan Nature. He himself said he remembered what Saiyan Pride was all about & how he lacked faith in his own power.

UI (Silver) is still the strongest, it's just that Goku heart isn't calm & tranquil enough to use it effectively. He would be wasting stamina & his accuracy would continue to decrease like it did against Granolah.

Gas - "I thought Silver Hair indicated maximum strength, why not use that?"

Goku - " For that Ultra Instinct to work, i need my heart to be calm & tranquil. But in this form, i can put my emotions to work for me. And believe me my heart's not calm now".

It's literally explained right before our eyes, it's like yall choose to look right over the explanation & instead shit on the Manga. It's fine if you don't like it, but how are you giving an opinion on something you don't fully comprehend? This is not a Goku trying to learn UI, this is Goku trying to discover his own style of UI. He couldn't use his emotions with the Angels style because Angels are completely calm & tranquil. Goku evolved in the Moro arc but he evolved as a Angel & not himself.


Whis in chapter 68 - "copying me won't get you far, you must develop your own style"

Goku in chapter 82- "I just can't keep my heart calm the way you do, whis".

*Whis response* in chapter 82 - That's understandable. As an Angel, i am a fundamentally different life-form than you."

Whis in chapter 82 - " How many times must i tell you? It's up to you to discover your own unique version of Ultra Instinct. Listen to the voice within you. Deep down, what are you really?"

Goku in chapter 85 - "My own Ultra Instinct?"

Vegeta gave Goku the time he needed to find his answer, you must keep in mind this fight take place in one day, the Monthly schedule makes it feel longer. This is Vegeta going against his 2nd opponent with UE who is massively stronger than him. The only possible way he would be able to close the gap is thru the damage he receives. However just because Goku & Vegeta aren't physically fighting with each other against Gas, it's still a group effort.

Vegeta to Goku in chapter 82 - "But what if your Ultra Instinct? It seems no different than before. Figure it out fast, until then...HE'S MINE!!".

Like i said before, I'm not here to change opinions. I'm here to inform, so that y'all can formulate a more accurate opinion:)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:22 pm

UiChad55 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:26 pm It seem like y'all misunderstood this chapter. Let me help some people understand more(you can still feel free to disagree, I'm simply informing).

If you go back & read chapter 60 Goku was most definitely using Emotions in sign. The problem was that he was trying to "Brute Force" UI as a way to gamble into his full potential.

Merus in chapter 60 - "By relying on sheer power alone, he can't make the most of Ultra Instinct's strength"

What Goku is doing in chapter 85 is using the instability that's within sign as an opportunity to draw power from his emotions.

Goku to Gas in chapter 85 - "neither, see I figured out the best transformation to MAKE USE OF MY POWER"

On top of that this is an more accurate & stronger Goku, he literally just found out about his Saiyan Nature. He himself said he remembered what Saiyan Pride was all about & how he lacked faith in his own power.

UI (Silver) is still the strongest, it's just that Goku heart isn't calm & tranquil enough to use it effectively. He would be wasting stamina & his accuracy would continue to decrease like it did against Granolah.

Gas - "I thought Silver Hair indicated maximum strength, why not use that?"

Goku - " For that Ultra Instinct to work, i need my heart to be calm & tranquil. But in this form, i can put my emotions to work for me. And believe me my heart's not calm now".

It's literally explained right before our eyes, it's like yall choose to look right over the explanation & instead shit on the Manga. It's fine if you don't like it, but how are you giving an opinion on something you don't fully comprehend? This is not a Goku trying to learn UI, this is Goku trying to discover his own style of UI. He couldn't use his emotions with the Angels style because Angels are completely calm & tranquil. Goku evolved in the Moro arc but he evolved as a Angel & not himself.


Whis in chapter 68 - "copying me won't get you far, you must develop your own style"

Goku in chapter 82- "I just can't keep my heart calm the way you do, whis".

*Whis response* in chapter 82 - That's understandable. As an Angel, i am a fundamentally different life-form than you."

Whis in chapter 82 - " How many times must i tell you? It's up to you to discover your own unique version of Ultra Instinct. Listen to the voice within you. Deep down, what are you really?"

Goku in chapter 85 - "My own Ultra Instinct?"

Vegeta gave Goku the time he needed to find his answer, you must keep in mind this fight take place in one day, the Monthly schedule makes it feel longer. This is Vegeta going against his 2nd opponent with UE who is massively stronger than him. The only possible way he would be able to close the gap is thru the damage he receives. However just because Goku & Vegeta aren't physically fighting with each other against Gas, it's still a group effort.

Vegeta to Goku in chapter 82 - "But what if your Ultra Instinct? It seems no different than before. Figure it out fast, until then...HE'S MINE!!".

Like i said before, I'm not here to change opinions. I'm here to inform, so that y'all can formulate a more accurate opinion:)
Yeah, you are correct. I also reiterated what the story stated but in a brief manner. Not in detail like yourself.
It's going to be interesting to see if Goku continues to fight, pushing past the limits against a stronger Gas like his father did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:45 pm

UiChad55 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:26 pm Snip
Pretty good explanation. Seems that your username is befitting here!
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