Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Having Gas die from old age would be neat. It would be the first time when we had a main villain die from nartual causes. DBS always does something different than have Goku always win.
Beerus: Goku lost
Freeza: Goku wins
Hit: Goku lost
Zamasu: Erased by Zeno
Jiren: Won with the help of Freeza, but it was #17 would won the TOP. Not Goku
Broly: No real winner because Broly was sent back to Vampa. Not to mention, Goku had to fuse into Gogeta to fight against him.
Moro: Goku wins (The first new villain in DBS to die from Goku)
Gas: Probably death from old age
Beerus: Goku lost
Freeza: Goku wins
Hit: Goku lost
Zamasu: Erased by Zeno
Jiren: Won with the help of Freeza, but it was #17 would won the TOP. Not Goku
Broly: No real winner because Broly was sent back to Vampa. Not to mention, Goku had to fuse into Gogeta to fight against him.
Moro: Goku wins (The first new villain in DBS to die from Goku)
Gas: Probably death from old age
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
I think the Earthlings fighting around the world added a bigger scope to the story, otherwise it would feel very similar to Granolah with multiple bouts of Goku and Vegeta fighting the same guys. Plus, it's the Earthlings stunting on fools! There's always time for that .Skar wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:04 pmI guess it's similar to BoG and RoF because their antagonists threatened the Earth but only the Z fighters were aware. That's the only way to still claim it's all happening during peacetime at least from the perspective of the general population. Piccolo, Saiyans, Cell, and Buu were broadcasted on the news and most of the population knew about them.Koitsukai wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:43 pmThe Moro arc would probably benefit from trimming off some stuff, mainly the Earthlings fighting or Buu's involvement that led nowhere IIRC, but I think it's ok for the most part. And yes, taking place on Earth while being the greatest threat U7 has ever seen, including GT, Z, videogames and even other franchises makes absolutely no sense. Fine, you don't want to leave U7? then just use another planet, I dunno.
If I'd cut anything, I'd cut some of the Goku vs Moro stuff. His first loss on Earth should be a quick squash, for instance. And I'd cut out some of the more ridiculous stuff towards the end like the Moro sensu and the Goku Susanoo.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
I think this is very possible. Omen isn't just a crappy version of MnG; it's a -Sign- of what's to come. And while Omen did well for a moment, it's obviously not the answer Goku's looking for.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Frieza died too in Resurrection F.Hellspawn28 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:08 pm Moro: Goku wins (The first new villain in DBS to die from Goku)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
I said "new villain". Golden Freeza is not really a new character.jjbgood wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:13 pmFrieza died too in Resurrection F.Hellspawn28 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:08 pm Moro: Goku wins (The first new villain in DBS to die from Goku)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
I think Vegeta suffers from that same I-am-my-own-worst-enemy-and-subsequent-downfall mentality that Thanos is afflicted with. No matter how strong he gets or whatever tricks he learns, Vegeta still finds ways to lose against whichever latest threat and then just accepts his fate no matter how severe the repercussions are. I don't know if it's because of any dysfunctional life lessons he obtained from serving half of his life under Freeza, his Saiyan drive to simply fight before covering all of his bases, or his prideful overconfidence(maybe all of the above?), Vegeta undoubtedly refuses to learn from his defeats and grasp victory when it's there. It might actually be inspirational that he trains so hard and gains so much strength...if not for the fact that he consistently lets challenges overcome him rather than the other way around.
I dunno, maybe Vegeta just likes losing?
I dunno, maybe Vegeta just likes losing?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
You're putting too thought into this considering Vegeta is not a real life person. We all know why he never wins against the main Villain in the story whether its the anime, manga or the movies because Toei, Toyotaro and Toriyama just don't see any significance in him winning against the main villain in the narrative they always establish. This is a Shonen series where Vegeta getting power ups and getting good fights still entertains the fanbase. The main issue is that Vegeta going through the same character writing has just gotten repetitive.theherodjl wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:47 am I think Vegeta suffers from that same I-am-my-own-worst-enemy-and-subsequent-downfall mentality that Thanos is afflicted with. No matter how strong he gets or whatever tricks he learns, Vegeta still finds ways to lose against whichever latest threat and then just accepts his fate no matter how severe the repercussions are. I don't know if it's because of any dysfunctional life lessons he obtained from serving half of his life under Freeza, his Saiyan drive to simply fight before covering all of his bases, or his prideful overconfidence(maybe all of the above?), Vegeta undoubtedly refuses to learn from his defeats and grasp victory when it's there. It might actually be inspirational that he trains so hard and gains so much strength...if not for the fact that he consistently lets challenges overcome him rather than the other way around.
I dunno, maybe Vegeta just likes losing?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Thanos isn't a real life person either but it's still a solid analysis to his character. Just because a character is fictional doesn't mean they aren't subject to interpretation. Granted, Toriyama is far from being among the creative likes of J.R.R Tolkien or Stanley Kubrick but his characters aren't all just one-dimensional plot devices.Issei189 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:38 amYou're putting too thought into this considering Vegeta is not a real life person. We all know why he never wins against the main Villain in the story whether its the anime, manga or the movies because Toei, Toyotaro and Toriyama just don't see any significance in him winning against the main villain in the narrative they always establish. This is a Shonen series where Vegeta getting power ups and getting good fights still entertains the fanbase. The main issue is that Vegeta going through the same character writing has just gotten repetitive.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
It interests me whether Vegeta will keep Ultra Ego for the next arc or it will be stuck in a limbo like Forced Spirit Fission, where it gets sometimes mentioned but never used again. Shame how Vegeta's training on Yardrat has no meaning to the current arc at all.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Tbf, Spirit Fission was always going to be a niched technique.Xeogran wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:04 am It interests me whether Vegeta will keep Ultra Ego for the next arc or it will be stuck in a limbo like Forced Spirit Fission, where it gets sometimes mentioned but never used again. Shame how Vegeta's training on Yardrat has no meaning to the current arc at all.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Vegeta's UE will definitely remain. Unlike Spirit Fission, where he simply learned it to specifically deal with Moro, UE is for his overall development.
UE's introduction was to help Vegeta grow from his guilt. Beerus said if he wanted such power, he had to get rid of the stray thoughts [past sins] and focus solely on destruction. Destroying his old self and creating a new. Which in turns helps show the contrast from Goku's Ultra Instinct pursuit.
UE's introduction was to help Vegeta grow from his guilt. Beerus said if he wanted such power, he had to get rid of the stray thoughts [past sins] and focus solely on destruction. Destroying his old self and creating a new. Which in turns helps show the contrast from Goku's Ultra Instinct pursuit.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
I don't see how the principle behind Spirit Fission is the same as Ultra Ego outside of them being powerful techniques at Vegeta's disposal. There's a narrative foundation behind Ultra Ego. It serves as Vegeta's own path that parallels Goku that was talked about since the Tournament of Power and developed even further during the Moro Arc where Vegeta left for Yardrat to do his own thing separate from Goku.
It also serves as a lesson for Vegeta to forget about the sins of the past while simultaneously having pride in who he is and how his identity as a Saiyan can help move him forward. His discovery of his "own Ultra Ego" allowed him to not be burdened by those sins while having pride in who he was. Whereas in the beginning, Vegeta completely disregarded who he was because of the sins of the past. The conflict between his Saiyan pride and having to cope with the sins of his people because of their Saiyan blood is something that the narrative had been leading up to since the beginning. And that is represented by Ultra Ego. Vegeta's lust for destruction against Granolah led him to Ultra Ego, upon his defeat against Granolah he reflects that "destruction" was not who he was, and then he obtains his "own Ultra Ego" by finally having pride in who he was despite those sins.
With Spirit Fission, the only narrative purpose is for Vegeta to atone for his sins back on Namek by returning the planet's energy back to the Namekians but that's just a temporary plot element and not some overarching narrative that Toyotaro had been slowly developing. We might not see Spirit Fission, but we will definitely see Ultra Ego again.
It also serves as a lesson for Vegeta to forget about the sins of the past while simultaneously having pride in who he is and how his identity as a Saiyan can help move him forward. His discovery of his "own Ultra Ego" allowed him to not be burdened by those sins while having pride in who he was. Whereas in the beginning, Vegeta completely disregarded who he was because of the sins of the past. The conflict between his Saiyan pride and having to cope with the sins of his people because of their Saiyan blood is something that the narrative had been leading up to since the beginning. And that is represented by Ultra Ego. Vegeta's lust for destruction against Granolah led him to Ultra Ego, upon his defeat against Granolah he reflects that "destruction" was not who he was, and then he obtains his "own Ultra Ego" by finally having pride in who he was despite those sins.
With Spirit Fission, the only narrative purpose is for Vegeta to atone for his sins back on Namek by returning the planet's energy back to the Namekians but that's just a temporary plot element and not some overarching narrative that Toyotaro had been slowly developing. We might not see Spirit Fission, but we will definitely see Ultra Ego again.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
And don't forget Toriyama's words, that Vegeta will die sooner than Goku, from a high blood pressure.theherodjl wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:47 am I think Vegeta suffers from that same I-am-my-own-worst-enemy-and-subsequent-downfall mentality that Thanos is afflicted with. No matter how strong he gets or whatever tricks he learns, Vegeta still finds ways to lose against whichever latest threat and then just accepts his fate no matter how severe the repercussions are. I don't know if it's because of any dysfunctional life lessons he obtained from serving half of his life under Freeza, his Saiyan drive to simply fight before covering all of his bases, or his prideful overconfidence(maybe all of the above?), Vegeta undoubtedly refuses to learn from his defeats and grasp victory when it's there. It might actually be inspirational that he trains so hard and gains so much strength...if not for the fact that he consistently lets challenges overcome him rather than the other way around.
I dunno, maybe Vegeta just likes losing?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Your analysis is lacking.theherodjl wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:47 am I think Vegeta suffers from that same I-am-my-own-worst-enemy-and-subsequent-downfall mentality that Thanos is afflicted with. No matter how strong he gets or whatever tricks he learns, Vegeta still finds ways to lose against whichever latest threat and then just accepts his fate no matter how severe the repercussions are. I don't know if it's because of any dysfunctional life lessons he obtained from serving half of his life under Freeza, his Saiyan drive to simply fight before covering all of his bases, or his prideful overconfidence(maybe all of the above?), Vegeta undoubtedly refuses to learn from his defeats and grasp victory when it's there. It might actually be inspirational that he trains so hard and gains so much strength...if not for the fact that he consistently lets challenges overcome him rather than the other way around.
I dunno, maybe Vegeta just likes losing?
Vegeta's self-defeating tendencies were settled at the end of the original manga's Buu Ac, where he comes to see the flaws with his world view. Then we got the timeskip to the end of the story, where he's presented as an equal to Goku. That's the story telling you Vegeta has grown as a person and no longer suffers from the mental and emotional shackles he placed himself under.
Him losing in Super isn't really due to any flaw in the character. He's losing because the stories are contrived and the reasons are lackluster. In the Moro arc, he lost just because he wasn't strong enough, which is fine. But every other time in Super, it's because of crazy circumstances nobody could've predicted (re: contrived writing in some cases).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
TKA is correct. The problem with DBS is that it's structured in a way that "only" allows Vegeta to lose and Goku to win. Like think about it:
We've been in this arc for over a year now, and only substantial characters throughout the entirety is Granollah, Goku, Vegeta, and Gas. That's about it. That's a year of story telling that only features several characters. Think about your favorite anime/manga and why its great. And I guarantee you a big reason why you like that show is because its structured in a way that allows side characters to have their own personal victories while still focusing on the main character's struggles.
That's not what's happening here. So despite gaining a new power up, Vegeta has to lose because Goku has to win.
We've been in this arc for over a year now, and only substantial characters throughout the entirety is Granollah, Goku, Vegeta, and Gas. That's about it. That's a year of story telling that only features several characters. Think about your favorite anime/manga and why its great. And I guarantee you a big reason why you like that show is because its structured in a way that allows side characters to have their own personal victories while still focusing on the main character's struggles.
That's not what's happening here. So despite gaining a new power up, Vegeta has to lose because Goku has to win.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Here's my prediction: Elec will die in a western duel style with Granolah, It's impossible for Granolah to lose this one as he is a much faster gunslinger.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
I'd like to add something to this: Vegeta cannot win against any main villain, like you're saying, but also, Goku cannot directly win against Vegeta even though he should often be able to. I mean, technically Vegeta could beat a main villain without too much of an issue, that's just on the writers not wanting to do it, but if Goku is ever shown to directly win against Vegeta, the dynamic will collapse. The whole routine is based on Vegeta growing in strength to the point where he can be a "stand-in" for Goku in order to lose to the villain so that the reader thinks "wow how will Goku win now". (TV Tropes probably has a term for this.) If Vegeta was ever shown to be directly inferior to Goku, it wouldn't work, readers would think "yeah well Goku hasn't tried yet so this doesn't matter anyway" instead. So Vegeta keeps getting power-ups that put him on par-ish with Goku but are never going to be quite enough to beat any main villain, and Goku will never be shown defeating him ever, leading to this weird "Goku > Villain > Vegeta >= Goku" cycle that just keeps rolling arc after arc after arc. That's just how DBS has been, is being and probably will be written.kemuri07 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:13 pm TKA is correct. The problem with DBS is that it's structured in a way that "only" allows Vegeta to lose and Goku to win. Like think about it:
We've been in this arc for over a year now, and only substantial characters throughout the entirety is Granollah, Goku, Vegeta, and Gas. That's about it. That's a year of story telling that only features several characters. Think about your favorite anime/manga and why its great. And I guarantee you a big reason why you like that show is because its structured in a way that allows side characters to have their own personal victories while still focusing on the main character's struggles.
That's not what's happening here. So despite gaining a new power up, Vegeta has to lose because Goku has to win.
(feel free to correct me on some of this if necessary, I'm pretty unsure of some of my wording here)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Not sure if that works exactly but, Worf effect is probably close enough.Alruneia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:51 am I'd like to add something to this: Vegeta cannot win against any main villain, like you're saying, but also, Goku cannot directly win against Vegeta even though he should often be able to. I mean, technically Vegeta could beat a main villain without too much of an issue, that's just on the writers not wanting to do it, but if Goku is ever shown to directly win against Vegeta, the dynamic will collapse. The whole routine is based on Vegeta growing in strength to the point where he can be a "stand-in" for Goku in order to lose to the villain so that the reader thinks "wow how will Goku win now". (TV Tropes probably has a term for this.)
Spoilers for Super hero:If Vegeta was ever shown to be directly inferior to Goku, it wouldn't work, readers would think "yeah well Goku hasn't tried yet so this doesn't matter anyway" instead. So Vegeta keeps getting power-ups that put him on par-ish with Goku but are never going to be quite enough to beat any main villain, and Goku will never be shown defeating him ever, leading to this weird "Goku > Villain > Vegeta >= Goku" cycle that just keeps rolling arc after arc after arc. That's just how DBS has been, is being and probably will be written.
(feel free to correct me on some of this if necessary, I'm pretty unsure of some of my wording here)
Spoiler:
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
Lukmendes wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:21 amSpoilers for Super hero:If Vegeta was ever shown to be directly inferior to Goku, it wouldn't work, readers would think "yeah well Goku hasn't tried yet so this doesn't matter anyway" instead. So Vegeta keeps getting power-ups that put him on par-ish with Goku but are never going to be quite enough to beat any main villain, and Goku will never be shown defeating him ever, leading to this weird "Goku > Villain > Vegeta >= Goku" cycle that just keeps rolling arc after arc after arc. That's just how DBS has been, is being and probably will be written.
(feel free to correct me on some of this if necessary, I'm pretty unsure of some of my wording here)
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread
With Super, it almost looks like they completely scrapped the EOZ ending. Of course, everyone is giving answers in interviews like - this whole Super stuff takes place in that "huge" gap between Majin Buu and Epilogue...
But yeah, having and them basically ignoring EOZ so far even in video games since Budokai 3/Infinite World and of course, GT except for the characters featuring in some games.
Kakarot is the most glaring example, as they adapted the two Z movies kind off and implemented parts of Super in Trunks DLC, that might be the reason.
But outside of Uub inclusion in manga, that is pretty much it's own world apart from the anime TV/Movie realm, it looks like they are going as a continuation of Z and the EOZ is kinda limiting and now it starts to hit the wall a bit.
Toriyama already scrapped Bardock's old design, that he actually designed himself sans the hair that looked more like Vegeta's, and revamped Bardock's story and look miles away from the beloved TV Special (and a tiny visual tidbit in the original manga), that everyone took as an integral part as a prequel story to the anime, same way as the Trunks TV Special intermission that wasn't retconned so far.
But I don't believe that he might change his own ending like that and in the end, it would be a kind of middle finger, as Super is already scolded for fun ideas but no stakes as it has to stay true to what follows. Kinda like the Obi-wan TV show.
There is actually fun precedence in Star Wars that I have read probably from Pablo Hidalgo or someone from Lucasfilm, that it is a mythos and discrepancies in details in the new canon in-between mediums like comic books and TV shows do not matter, as we are not watching the story as it really happened, but it's retelling Kinda blew my mind and breaks the fourth wall a lot... in the end, I am just watching Star Wars and enjoy it.
But what I wanted to say, is that Dragon Ball doesn't have canon at all and is pretty much lenient at times ever since the anime adaptation of the manga started, so in the end, who knows what they might do with it.
But yeah, having
Spoiler:
Kakarot is the most glaring example, as they adapted the two Z movies kind off and implemented parts of Super in Trunks DLC, that might be the reason.
But outside of Uub inclusion in manga, that is pretty much it's own world apart from the anime TV/Movie realm, it looks like they are going as a continuation of Z and the EOZ is kinda limiting and now it starts to hit the wall a bit.
Toriyama already scrapped Bardock's old design, that he actually designed himself sans the hair that looked more like Vegeta's, and revamped Bardock's story and look miles away from the beloved TV Special (and a tiny visual tidbit in the original manga), that everyone took as an integral part as a prequel story to the anime, same way as the Trunks TV Special intermission that wasn't retconned so far.
But I don't believe that he might change his own ending like that and in the end, it would be a kind of middle finger, as Super is already scolded for fun ideas but no stakes as it has to stay true to what follows. Kinda like the Obi-wan TV show.
There is actually fun precedence in Star Wars that I have read probably from Pablo Hidalgo or someone from Lucasfilm, that it is a mythos and discrepancies in details in the new canon in-between mediums like comic books and TV shows do not matter, as we are not watching the story as it really happened, but it's retelling Kinda blew my mind and breaks the fourth wall a lot... in the end, I am just watching Star Wars and enjoy it.
But what I wanted to say, is that Dragon Ball doesn't have canon at all and is pretty much lenient at times ever since the anime adaptation of the manga started, so in the end, who knows what they might do with it.
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