Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Alkiser
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Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Alkiser » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:45 pm

That's what I was wondering who could be the ultimate bad guy of the whole Superki, and after some lengthy deliberation I decided that the ultimate antagonist to end the DBS series would be Frizer. Because he probably has the most far-reaching plans of the villains so far, as we know from the anime his ambition is to overthrow Zeno, and it would only be on a dream that this ambition would end because Zeno can remove him before he lifts a finger. There was also this guy Hearts but he was not able to defeat Gogeta, let alone overthrow Zeno. Frizer himself hasn't appeared since Broly, it's been three arc's (Moro,Granolah, Super Hero) and he's only been mentioned in them. As if they were preparing him for something bigger, and it would be a nod to fan rumors and theories that Toriyama was going to end Dragon Ball on the Namek saga where the ultimate bad guy was Frizer.

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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:06 pm

No one will ever surpass Zamasu in terms of ambitions, plans, and scope of his actions. Frieza doesn't come close.

Zamasu is the only Multiversal villain, as in the only villain whose plans and influence affected the entire Multiverse, and who tried to remove both Gods (successfully) and mortals (successfully, only 2 survived) from the Cosmos.

Frieza is not comparable. He will never be able to overthrow Zeno using the Super Dragon Balls, because he doesn't know the Divine language of the Gods, so he can't make the wish. His "villainous wish" in the Broly movie with the normal DBs was simply to grow a little taller. He has become a meme villain. His empire only has influence in the Seventh Universe, while Zamasu, after killing all the other Gods, was the highest authority in the entire Cosmos (except for Zeno, who as we know doesn't get involved unless Goku summons him).

I don't see how there can be any villain who will ever pose a greater obstacle than Zamasu, someone who threatened the entire Multiverse and was even making plans to take over the other timelines too.

It seems to me like the "ultimate villain" has already been shown and we have already seen what an "ultimate villain" is capable of (literally consuming an entire timeline into himself).

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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:16 pm

I don’t know about “ultimate evil,” but the only real idea left for a Dragon Ball villain that I had any particular interest in was seemingly wasted with Hearts, so that’s unfortunate.

Now that I think about it though, the anime version of the Tournament of Power does have a few moments which suggest that Freeza intends to overthrow the Gods, but that hasn’t gone anywhere at the moment.

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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:30 am

DB should definitely have its own personification of evil like how DC has The Great Evil Beast and Marvel has The One Below All. And IIRC, Zeno was once stated to be a destroyer of evil so it could be established in a later arc that Zeno's purpose is to prevent a grand force of darkness from overtaking DB's multiverse & timelines. Zamasu could be retconned as having been a puppet to the great evil which is why he was so willing to give into hate and commit atrocities across various levels of existence; it could also explain why Black appeared to be a shadowy monster in his first appearance in the anime and why Merged Zamasu shot up into the sky and then outer space as a cloud of darkness. The great evil had attempted to break through into DB's mainline reality and so, Future Zeno was forced to shut down the proverbial system so that the access point was permanently sealed. The ToP could even be used as an additional justification to see if any other inhabitants in the main timeline had been infected by the great evil and that if the wish with the Super DBs to restore all other universes had not been made, it would've been confirmation to the Zeno Twins that the evil had indeed infiltrated the main timeline.
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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Trouser » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:27 am

Frieza is doing just fine, but I'd love for Beerus to became the real evil, because now everyone thinks he's some kind of a best friend with ZFighters when he's not. This or Dragon Balls like in Dragon Ball GT.

And modern Toriyama and his lack of care. And because Toriyama always used two villains, the second one is Dragon Room because apparently someone is scared of telling him that something is "not okay".
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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:13 am

theherodjl wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:30 am Zamasu could be retconned as having been a puppet to the great evil which is why he was so willing to give into hate and commit atrocities across various levels of existence; it could also explain why Black appeared to be a shadowy monster in his first appearance in the anime and why Merged Zamasu shot up into the sky and then outer space as a cloud of darkness.
I'd hate it, I don't think DB should go the Naruto route and reveal that everyone was manipulated by this one villain who was never even mentioned before.

I think you can perfectly introduce a major villain from, for example, the Demon Realm, without having to retcon the backstories of established villains in the process.

We know and saw that Zamasu fell from grace because he was overcome by hatred towards mortals and the desire to create a perfect utopia. No corruption or manipulation was involved here. Plus Zamasu is too egocentric [and smart] to listen to anyone but himself, even other villains would be ignored if not outright despised by him. In the videogame we see that he indeed despises Demons, for instance.

Besides, DB is a series where every villain is usually "contained" to his own arc. It's not a series like Naruto where there's one villain who is responsible for every arc, so it wouldn't really make much sense to introduce this Bigger Bad of the entire series.

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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:49 am

I hope the final villain is none of these suggestions and ends up being totally unexpected, off-the-wall, and whimsically goofy. Just like the original run.
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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:12 pm

I hope it's not Freeza, we've seen him as a protagonist 3 times now, we dont need a 4th time. If they reuse a villian, it could be the shadow dragons, and with all the abuse the dragon balls have been receiving lately, they could very well be setting up a shadow dragon arc. It might be interesting if it ties into Namekian lore and involves Piccolo, Zalama, and the Namekian book of legends.

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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:08 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:13 amPlus Zamasu is too egocentric [and smart] to listen to anyone but himself
Well you know, Darkseid never realized that he was the physical representation of The Great Evil Beast's left hand, having lived for eons unaware that his actions had been the result of the true brain guiding his every move. It would make sense that Zamasu's ego wouldn't allow him to be aware of the fact that he was a puppet and that his ego stemmed from being controlled to begin; unable to see his strings because he wasn't allowed to look up and couldn't bring himself to do so even if he could. It could make him more of a tragic character as opposed to being another Shonen villain who exists to do bad things so that he can be defeated by the protagonist.
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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:24 pm

Yeah, the "ultimate evil" should be the Shadow Dragons or Hearts (bonus points if it changes the status quo). Anything other than that would be boring for a "finale".
theherodjl wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:30 amDB should definitely have its own personification of evil like how DC has The Great Evil Beast and Marvel has The One Below All.
It already has (albeit in a much smaller scale). That would be Janemba, the personification of all that is evil (a smoke in a tank, basically).
theherodjl wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:30 amit could also explain why Black appeared to be a shadowy monster in his first appearance in the anime
Huh? That was just for dramatic purposes for the audience, Goku Black isn't a "shadowy monster", or are we just gonna assume the androids are some ghostly things too as they also appeared as such in the anime?
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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:31 pm

theherodjl wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:08 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:13 amPlus Zamasu is too egocentric [and smart] to listen to anyone but himself
Well you know, Darkseid never realized that he was the physical representation of The Great Evil Beast's left hand, having lived for eons unaware that his actions had been the result of the true brain guiding his every move. It would make sense that Zamasu's ego wouldn't allow him to be aware of the fact that he was a puppet and that his ego stemmed from being controlled to begin; unable to see his strings because he wasn't allowed to look up and couldn't bring himself to do so even if he could. It could make him more of a tragic character as opposed to being another Shonen villain who exists to do bad things so that he can be defeated by the protagonist.
We know why Zamasu became a villain and it's because he was too obsessed with creating a perfect world. No manipulation was involved here.

If we really have to make an ultimate bad guy, maybe you could say that the bad guy was released inadvertently when Zamasu shattered the Super Dragon Balls, and fled the Future timeline before it was erased. I mean, the Super Dragon Balls are literally planet-sized, maybe they act as the prison for some ultimate villain or something like that. After the new movie, it's clear Toriyama has no problem asspulling villains into existence.

That way, you don't retcon Zamasu's origin story but at the same time you can argue that Zamasu inadvertently set that villain free.

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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by fleahop » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:04 pm

Honestly, I don't want to see an "ultimate evil" in this series. I think that time has come and flown by at mach speed. Instead, I think that we should take a look at the recent stories being told. More of the characters looking into themselves, lower stakes, understanding pasts, etc.

I believe a good final villain would take these qualities to the next level and finally make Goku challenge his belief system. Sure, it'd be hamfisted because they think the fans are stupid or thay don't care, idk. It's still what I think Super is leading towards.
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Re: Ultimate evil in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Skar » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:55 pm

I have an idea for an ultimate evil. Be warned it's a stupid idea. What if instead of the Shadow Dragons there's a dragon that's a personification of death. It turns out that the dragonballs were never meant to be used for resurrection since it disturbs the natural balance of the universe or something like that. His goal is to restore balance by everyone who has ever been resurrected. That includes the seven universes erased by Zeno and everyone wished back in U7 throughout the series. The only deaths that don't count is when Freeza destroyed the Earth in RoF since Whis only reversed time.

This would have to take place after EoZ since it couldn't happen in DBS. He could be like Death from Bill & Ted except as a dragon so a fun guy. The dragon is merciful and he spares those born from a parent who have been resurrected like Pan, Bra, and Uub. Also he spares planets and inanimate objects that have been restored by the dragonballs.

It would be a depressing ending but just something I thought about. Earth would be pretty empty since the only character still alive born before the Buu saga are Satan and Mr Buu. I was going to say Dende too but I remembered he was killed on Namek. U7 as a whole would be even emptier since he would re-kill all the people killed during the Moro arc.

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