Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TKA
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:44 am

Marz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:16 amwhy keep following it?
In the hopes that the narrative will get better.

It's not rocket surgery here. We enjoyed the manga from the first tournament until the end of the tournament of power. That's like 6 years, man. Now we see it dipping and not being enjoyable, but we want it to be again so we keep reading, hoping it will recapture that magic.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:52 pm

Just because there are complaints about the story does not mean one should stop reading. Fans will indeed post their likes and dislikes. Expressing gripes about where improvements can be made or the lack of quality is only natural. You see sports fans do this all the time about their desired team. Doesn't mean they will stop being followers.

With that said, Toyotaro has potential with Elec to spice things up. I know some want the arc just to wrap up but he has a chance to end well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:51 am

Miracles wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:52 pm With that said, Toyotaro has potential with Elec to spice things up. I know some want the arc just to wrap up but he has a chance to end well.
I'd like to see what DB does with an elusive villain. We haven't really had that before. I'd like to see a villain last for maybe 2 or 3 arcs before getting their comeuppance.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:44 am

BWri wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:51 am I'd like to see what DB does with an elusive villain. We haven't really had that before. I'd like to see a villain last for maybe 2 or 3 arcs before getting their comeuppance.
tfw that vilalin turns out to be 7-3 (who's probably gonna survive this arc onto the next)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:26 pm

Xeogran wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:44 am
BWri wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:51 am I'd like to see what DB does with an elusive villain. We haven't really had that before. I'd like to see a villain last for maybe 2 or 3 arcs before getting their comeuppance.
tfw that vilalin turns out to be 7-3 (who's probably gonna survive this arc onto the next)
As much as I'm looking forward to the next part of 7-3's story thread, that's not really what I'm referring to. I'm hoping its a more active antagonist and hopefully one with some charisma. They could have done something like this with Frieza or Champa previously, Frieza in particular, but he's mostly just a background character after DBS: Broly. And Champa's scheme was all just to setup a gag/heartwarming moment. Was hoping for something more sinister/long term from him back in the day.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm

Well, seeing as the arc is more or less finished, I thought I'd pop back in to weigh some of my thoughts. Reading back everything I've wrote here, it's probably not gonna go down well with anyone, but let it be known that I like and respect pretty much all of the regular posters on this side of the forum. You're the real Gs of Kanzenshuu. Right, here we go.

Like many people here, I haven't been the biggest fan of the arc and my interest in the Super manga as a whole waned considerably as a result. Most of my criticisms are roughly the same as what's been parroted back and forth for the last several months, so I frankly didn't feel much of a need to repeat the obvious every four weeks. Of course, the manga itself is partly to blame with its overall poor writing, but on the same token -- and with all due respect -- it does feel like some folks here have let their fiery passion turn to an ugly vitriol that's just unpleasant to see, no matter how sincere or heartful it is. When I realised I was falling into a similar repetitive rut, not just here but on other parts of Kanzenshuu, I took a step back from the forum and Dragon Ball as a whole (though some exciting IRL developments also led me astray).

And look, I get it, I really do. It's easy to see why so many fans have become frustrated with the arc and desperately want to see it improve. But posting the same repetitive criticisms every month on a fan forum will not accomplish anything on that front, as much as I and others are likely to agree with the points made. Toyotaro doesn't read this forum. At some point, the only productive thing to do is redirect your passion elsewhere.

On the same token, I'm really not a fan of this forced division between the Manga Scrutinisers and the "Manga Riders", as that guy with the Super-Baby-Bogdanoff-2 profile picture put it. While I certainly appreciate that many people genuinely enjoy the manga currently and want to liven up the discourse, some vocal loyalists are perhaps too keen to turn their fondness for the manga as a cudgel to beat dissenters with, which only causes the discussion to grind to a halt (not unlike the arc's plotting). Some of the strident attempts to make these "redemptive readings" of the arc, compelling and persuasive as they can be at their best, do tend to come across as slightly disingenuous/contrarian at their worst. At the end of the day, if you're not willing to hear out someone's criticisms or give any ground to their position whatsoever, all that does is piss them off. No matter how persuasive you think you're being and no matter how much hidden artistic merit you think something has, you can't force another dude to like it.

I suppose you could read this as a centrist "both siiiiides" shitbag type of comment. Maybe it is, but whatever, I stand by it. Again, I genuinely respect the hell out of y'all, but sometimes we need to take a step back to see when things aren't going anywhere.

Anyway, going back to re-read earlier arcs myself, I realised just how much information Toyotaro was able to regularly and skilfully pack into each chapter. It's honestly hard to believe that the Granolah Gas arc is made by same guy who did the Universe 6, Goku Black, and Tournament of Power arcs. There's almost no comparison to be made. Many people criticised the anime for over-emphasising ephemeral action over meaningful narrative progression; I feel that the manga is really no different at all in this regard, at this point anyway.

It may be cliché to call Super "official fan fiction", but I've found few other terms to describe the Gas arc than an unfunny attempt to make an official parody of Dragon Ball. I'm the strongest in the universe now", "No, I'M the strongest!", "Nu-uh, I was holding back my true power!", "Jokes on you, so was I!", "Ha! I have a secret transformation", "Same here, ", "You thought it was over bitch, I'm now EVEN STRONGER-ER than before!"

Self-parody was already done far better by Toriyama in the Majin Buu arc, decades ago. This arc is just everything non-fans mock Dragon Ball for without nearly as much irony.

EDIT: Shit, I meant to include some positive points here.

As much as I think he's been severely misused in the back half of the story, I am still a big fan of Granolah. Cool design, fleshed-out motivations, compelling personality, unique powers, what's not to like?

The chapter of Goku and Gas teleporting across the galaxy was possibly one of the greatest single chapters of the entire Super manga, IMO. It was the equivalent of that Goku vs. Hearts fight in Super Dragon Ball Heroes, which was dazzling enough to make you almost forget you're watching Super Dragon Ball Heroes.

More of a neutral point, but I didn't end up hating Bardock's infamous wish. At worst, I think it was cheesy and I'm not a huge fan of Bardock's implementation in the arc to begin with, but I don't think it ruins Dragon Ball forever as some say. To me, it gives a kinda neat rationalisation behind Goku's extraordinary luck in the earlier arcs (which was heavily implied to be partly down to some divine protection from his granpda even back then).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm Many people criticised the anime for over-emphasising ephemeral action over meaningful narrative progression; I feel that the manga is really no different at all in this regard, at this point anyway.
I would put it a different way. The anime attempted to deliver on narrative progression, but it failed at presenting it in a satisfying (integrated, consistent, tonally-appropriate, etc.) way. This is especially apparent when compared to the same arcs of the manga. On the other hand, we could regularly expect at least one or two cool cuts of fighting animation per episode.

As for how that criticism applies to this arc...there's certainly a lot of fighting. More than I would like, maybe. To me, it feels like padding mandated by the higher-ups at V-Jump. I've found the action entertaining, and I don't think it comes at the expense of the narrative - except in the form of month-to-month pacing. Even then, I've enjoyed every chapter and looked forward to the next.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm While I certainly appreciate that many people genuinely enjoy the manga currently and want to liven up the discourse, some vocal loyalists are perhaps too keen to turn their fondness for the manga as a cudgel to beat dissenters with, which only causes the discussion to grind to a halt (not unlike the arc's plotting). Some of the strident attempts to make these "redemptive readings" of the arc, compelling and persuasive as they can be at their best, do tend to come across as slightly disingenuous/contrarian at their worst. At the end of the day, if you're not willing to hear out someone's criticisms or give any ground to their position whatsoever, all that does is piss them off. No matter how persuasive you think you're being and no matter how much hidden artistic merit you think something has, you can't force another dude to like it.
I'm not sure if you're referring to me in this quote, but since others have expressed a similar view toward me, I will respond.

Nobody should apologize for expressing why they like this arc, manga, or anything else related to Dragon Ball here. Personally, I will not concede to arguments I don't think are well-founded simply to avoid being labeled as biased. As for the idea of beating others over the head with my opinion, I try my best to back off when I feel that the conversation has become unproductive, and I choose my battles. Similarly, it's entirely possible for there to be an impassioned debate between people who don't agree but still respect each other.

I express my point of view because I want to share my passion for Dragon Ball. I am a Dragon Ball fan on a Dragon Ball fan site. If my comments stand out among the disproportionate negativity, it's because that's how I genuinely feel, and I'm okay with that. On a similar note, if I wasn't online, I would not be aware of the amount of criticism leveled at this story.

----

There's been some discussion here regarding the "exhausting" negativity of this thread. Some users have expressed concern about how other users might be hesitant to express themselves because of this. If you want to steer the conversation in a certain direction, give it a shot. You don't have to respond to everyone who quotes you. This forum is big enough for multiple conversations, so we should all just engage with what we want. Let the mods sort out the rest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:17 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm On the same token, I'm really not a fan of this forced division between the Manga Scrutinisers and the "Manga Riders", as that guy with the Super-Baby-Bogdanoff-2 profile picture put it.
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batistabus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm Many people criticised the anime for over-emphasising ephemeral action over meaningful narrative progression; I feel that the manga is really no different at all in this regard, at this point anyway.
I would put it a different way. The anime attempted to deliver on narrative progression, but it failed at presenting it in a satisfying (integrated, consistent, tonally-appropriate, etc.) way. This is especially apparent when compared to the same arcs of the manga. On the other hand, we could regularly expect at least one or two cool cuts of fighting animation per episode.

As for how that criticism applies to this arc...there's certainly a lot of fighting. More than I would like, maybe. To me, it feels like padding mandated by the higher-ups at V-Jump. I've found the action entertaining, and I don't think it comes at the expense of the narrative - except in the form of month-to-month pacing. Even then, I've enjoyed every chapter and looked forward to the next.
While I've been mostly fine with the fights every chapter & feel there's generally been a good (or at least) amount of meaningful story progression/characterisation in each one amongst the fighting, I can understand (despite not fully agreeing) the "fighting for the sake of fighting" complaining/perception lobbed at the arc. It's especially noticeable that the standard amount of chapters for each individual fight has bumped up to 2 (90 pages overall, which in the grand scheme of a monthly manga, is a lot) from 1 (like the recent chapter & most previous arcs' ones). As a side note, I'm generally wary of attributing deficiencies in/criticisms of the writing (like padding) to/as being mandated by management/editors, like shadowy higher power scapegoats, since it almost feels like deflecting critique from those directly responsible for the manga i.e. Toyotaro & Toriyama, who for one (or two) have never really brought them up in interviews about the manga's production/arcs' planning & writing (compared to say, much of what we know about Toriyama and his editors during DB), & the Moro arc (where we assume Toyo generally had free reign) is evidence of filler action/fights in close to every chapter prior to the Granolah arc.

The main chapter I feel that really exemplifies or accentuates that "fighting no story" criticism is chapter 79/Gas vs Granolah (Part 1), which was a lot of flashy fighting between 2 arc OCs (your mileage may vary if you cared/chose to care about them/their fight) while Goku/Vegeta just watch on the sidelines across 45 pages (& half of the next chapter), with minimal meaningful takeaways that could easily be summed up as: showcase Gas's cool weapon abilities (which the previous chapter did), Gas's power he got from the wish (that he refused to use out of pride of his own skills), & Gas isn't used to that power so Granolah still has a chance to win (the last one being near-invalidated next chapter as Granolah took too long & Gas got more accustomed to it). It could've easily been blended with Part 2 of the fight/the next chapter, which itself ends back to where we started the prev chap or 2 chaps ago (Gas is now stronger than everyone else, is gonna wreck everyone) (though we did have SSB Goku managing to land a meaningful Bardock "fiery resolve"-esque/PTSD-triggering hit on the unleashed Gas).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:18 am

batistabus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:04 pm Many people criticised the anime for over-emphasising ephemeral action over meaningful narrative progression; I feel that the manga is really no different at all in this regard, at this point anyway.
I would put it a different way. The anime attempted to deliver on narrative progression, but it failed at presenting it in a satisfying (integrated, consistent, tonally-appropriate, etc.) way. This is especially apparent when compared to the same arcs of the manga. On the other hand, we could regularly expect at least one or two cool cuts of fighting animation per episode.

As for how that criticism applies to this arc...there's certainly a lot of fighting. More than I would like, maybe. To me, it feels like padding mandated by the higher-ups at V-Jump. I've found the action entertaining, and I don't think it comes at the expense of the narrative - except in the form of month-to-month pacing. Even then, I've enjoyed every chapter and looked forward to the next.
I agree with most of this, I do get a sense that something must have changed editorially behind the scenes, which does interest me. Though as Shorty said, there’s no way of knowing for sure yet. I definitely agree that Toyotaro’s earlier renditions of Toriyama’s story outlines were mostly far more narratively satisfying in the manga. Funnily enough, I was just reading the chapter where Beerus destroys Zamasu, it’s so cleverly structured from start to finish. The build-up to Future Zamasu’s appearance after the parallel dialogue between Beerus/Zamasu and Vegeta/Black was masterful.

During this arc, there have been several times when I’ve also been enjoying it enough to be eagerly anticipating the next chapter, but there was a loooong slump around Tall Gas’s introduction where it really felt like nothing was happening anymore. With each passing chapter, there was less and less to talk about, which was quite disheartening in light of how well-balanced story and action were in previous arcs.
I'm not sure if you're referring to me in this quote, but since others have expressed a similar view toward me, I will respond.

Nobody should apologize for expressing why they like this arc, manga, or anything else related to Dragon Ball here. Personally, I will not concede to arguments I don't think are well-founded simply to avoid being labeled as biased. As for the idea of beating others over the head with my opinion, I try my best to back off when I feel that the conversation has become unproductive, and I choose my battles. Similarly, it's entirely possible for there to be an impassioned debate between people who don't agree but still respect each other.

I express my point of view because I want to share my passion for Dragon Ball. I am a Dragon Ball fan on a Dragon Ball fan site. If my comments stand out among the disproportionate negativity, it's because that's how I genuinely feel, and I'm okay with that. On a similar note, if I wasn't online, I would not be aware of the amount of criticism leveled at this story.

----

There's been some discussion here regarding the "exhausting" negativity of this thread. Some users have expressed concern about how other users might be hesitant to express themselves because of this. If you want to steer the conversation in a certain direction, give it a shot. You don't have to respond to everyone who quotes you. This forum is big enough for multiple conversations, so we should all just engage with what we want. Let the mods sort out the rest.
I never meant to imply that anyone who praises the arc should have to apologise or downplay themselves. If anyone feels they have to do that, that’s definitely a problem. No specific one person was meant to be “targeted” by that part or any part of my rant there. It’s more about the generally divisive vibe on this side of the forum at the moment (tbh, you generally conduct yourself politely and modestly so I apologise if you did feel targeted, that definitely wasn’t my intention).

What personally annoys me a bit is when it becomes less about even-handed discussion and giving one’s own opinions, and more about trying to “debunk” the opinions of the other party without really addressing what they’re saying, which I believe is why the tone of these threads has become more combative. Nobody likes to feel like they are not being heard. I’m under no delusion that I’ve probably been guilty of this myself in the past, but I like to think I’ve given people I disagree with a fair shake, and in turn I’ve had my views and perspectives changed countless times. About the “too much fighting” criticisms, I really enjoyed how the fighting and story were interwoven early on and was happy to argue that, but as the arc progressed the fighting became much more vapid and superfluous in my view. Yet as people were making this point, there were still a few catty, dismissive comments like “but Dragon Ball always has fighting, why u mad”, which feels intentionally obtuse in the face of why people have an problem with the way the fighting has been handled.

Okay, so I’m gonna name a name here, and one I really don’t want to start shit with — not least because he seems to have taken a voluntary leave of absence as well — but, and again I’m not trying to be a dick about it, I feel it illustrates my point than vague comments about “vibes” ever will.

A while ago, I saw a post by the Super Re-Reader himself, Magnificent Ponta, where he was defending his more redemptive views on the manga. It was all well and good, but there was something he said that bothered me (and I’ve probably blown out of proportion). I would’ve liked to have discussed it with him but I needed time away from the forum and didn’t want to get involved. He said something about wanting to be the most “responsible reader”. On paper, I absolutely agree that it’s important to be fair and thorough in your critique, but the disagreeable implication there is that those who are not actively seeking to find the most lenient readings of the arc that he frequently did are therefore being “irresponsible readers”. That, I feel, summarises what I’ve been taking issue with here. The more critical readers, for the most part, are not actively trying to be malicious towards Toyotaro or whatever. I’m sure guys like Baggins and TKA will reiterate that. Their critiques may be harsh — and definitely a bit repetitive sometimes — but they’re in no way any less valid or “responsible” than these more positive takes. They’re coming from a place of sincerity. The idea that to be a TRUE CRITIC, you have to artificially squeeze as much merit and themes from an artwork as possible purely for the sake of “balance” — even if you think the work itself is complete crap — is a rather narrow-minded view of literary criticism, IMO. Even the best critics in the world, like all of us mammals, know when to say “this is utter irredeemable tripe”. Obviously, Ponta did not think the arc was utter irredeemable tripe, he clearly enjoyed it, but I didn’t like the implication that those who couldn’t see the artistic merits he could find were just being irresponsible readers.

Maybe I’ve totally misinterpreted his opinion there, but that was my takeaway and it left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. In any case, he was by no means the only person to take this sort of approach, based on what I’ve seen so far.

For my part, I was one of the people who couldn’t see much value in the storytelling/character writing and thought the thematic content, wherever it could be found, was poorly handled. Tellingly, I noticed that much of the thematic discussion of this arc boiled down to speculation of what might happen to support their authoritatively-written theories rather than what was actually going on in the month-to-month story. And nearly every time, these theories were outright disproven or completely off the mark. If someone sees more merit in all of this, more power to them, but I won’t have anyone trying to act all superior just because I personally don’t always see it or agree with it.

Also, I don’t think we’ve been formally introduced Shorty but nice to meet you anyway. :) I’m also not a big fan of how nearly every fight has been extended to two or more chapters, I’ve rarely found it to be justified.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ChronoTwigger » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:55 am

I think there's something wrong when the debate go from criticizing the subject to criticize the critics on the subject.

In the context of tabletop RPG we reached the peak of this trend. You *cannot say* that a product is bad, as someone can be hurted by this. Here there's a similar derange, and I assure you that most of this come from a wrong, new netiquette trend.

One should be grown enough to understand two facts: the world is not your comfort zone, and freedom stop when another individual freedom begin (even if that area of freedom make you feel "wrong").

There's no way that someone can debate with me and change my idea this manga deranged to a terrible mess, with no content, random stuff and failed writing. If you think this mess is a good piece of manga, I can quote an infinite number of better products, so the logic can be flipped: why you still like and positively comment on this mess when you can read something better?
If someone try to amend the manga by attaching extra values you have to come by going deeper than the author himself, I can quote one part of DBS I liked (Zamasu arc), until I've come with the fact I was adding more by my own metanarrative than the authors did. I was 'figuring out' a better plot - it's like buying a terrible book and write the missing tenses on your own. That qualify the book as a bad thing. Objectively.
If once I thought it was anime schedule, the fact the issue show up again in the manga is to me evident they don't care. No one care. So why I should? And I want for people to notice.

I suspect a number of people is doing exactly that: attaching more value to a story that's good by intent, but poorly narrated to the point the good intent require so much effort to rise that doing *my own fanfiction* will be less costly - and I'm ot even sure the intent was the one I'm comeing with.

My critics are about that. And to me, is quite astounding that people can eat such stuff and didn't perceived the scam behind, the lack of passion, the lazy execution and the overall "they'll eat whatever, so give them whatever" that I can *clearly* see, crystal as the summer sky.

To me, you can pretend more, you should and you're in full right to pretend more.
But if you're satisfied by such poor meal *that's the thing* and none of my words or any other words should never put you in doubt to be *morally wrong*. The critic is about the product, *not you* that like it.
If you do feel morally assaulted by bad critics on a product you like, you're extending your comfort zone to me - and I'm not just a bunch of lines on *your* device, I'm not a system bug on your perfectly fit life, not I'm polarizing anything - I'm just another human being you cannot control, with different perspectives.

So, critics on critics are silly to the point I don't think they're rational at all.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:51 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:18 am Funnily enough, I was just reading the chapter where Beerus destroys Zamasu, it’s so cleverly structured from start to finish. The build-up to Future Zamasu’s appearance after the parallel dialogue between Beerus/Zamasu and Vegeta/Black was masterful.
Agreed, that's really good stuff.
What personally annoys me a bit is when it becomes less about even-handed discussion and giving one’s own opinions, and more about trying to “debunk” the opinions of the other party without really addressing what they’re saying, which I believe is why the tone of these threads has become more combative.
I agree with this sentiment. I'm all for greater patience and understanding. On the other hand, I think many of us are drawn to forums (instead of social media, for example) because we're interested in conversation and can be convinced. I've changed my mind on plenty of things (the dub, music, animation, etc.) because of conversations I've had on these forums. In those cases, my foundation for holding a previous opinion was "debunked", and for better or worse, not always in a civil manner. If someone claims to dislike something, but is invested enough to spend hours discussing it every month, they probably like it more than they're letting on. So if someone claims they don't like something for "x" reason, but they can be shown to view it another way, they might.
The idea that to be a TRUE CRITIC, you have to artificially squeeze as much merit and themes from an artwork as possible purely for the sake of “balance” — even if you think the work itself is complete crap — is a rather narrow-minded view of literary criticism, IMO.

Tellingly, I noticed that much of the thematic discussion of this arc boiled down to speculation of what might happen to support their authoritatively-written theories rather than what was actually going on in the month-to-month story. And nearly every time, these theories were outright disproven or completely off the mark.
I don't think this accurately represents the balance of criticism at all, personally. The treatment of Toyotaro by "hardcore" fans, here and across the internet, has been uncharitable (to put it generously) since the start of the DBS manga. One of the best examples was Trunks' healing powers; fans were up in arms at Toyo for "plot holes" and incompetence" before the reveal. The same thing happened before Merus was reveal to be an angel. I can think of very few instances of people admitting they overreacted in those circumstances, although the "wait until the chapter actually comes out" discourse on Twitter has definitely improved.

As for excited speculation about where the story may lead...let me put it this way. Anyone commenting with certainty about where the story will go before it's over (and especially when it's just starting) is going to be wrong. Dragon Ball - even Super - is hard to predict. That's what makes it fun. Still, if you're eagerly anticipating the next part of the story, it can be fun to guess how things might unfold. I'd rather read that than unfounded pessimism; at least wait until the story is resolved before complaining about things that haven't happened. In both cases, anyone engaging should dial down the certainty, but I don't think these are equal offenses.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:01 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:18 am Also, I don’t think we’ve been formally introduced Shorty but nice to meet you anyway. :) I’m also not a big fan of how nearly every fight has been extended to two or more chapters, I’ve rarely found it to be justified.
Hey hey, LFH73, feeling is mutual. 👌
ChronoTwigger wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:55 am I think there's something wrong when the debate go from criticizing the subject to criticize the critics on the subject.

In the context of tabletop RPG we reached the peak of this trend. You *cannot say* that a product is bad, as someone can be hurted by this. Here there's a similar derange, and I assure you that most of this come from a wrong, new netiquette trend.

One should be grown enough to understand two facts: the world is not your comfort zone, and freedom stop when another individual freedom begin (even if that area of freedom make you feel "wrong").

There's no way that someone can debate with me and change my idea this manga deranged to a terrible mess, with no content, random stuff and failed writing. If you think this mess is a good piece of manga, I can quote an infinite number of better products, so the logic can be flipped: why you still like and positively comment on this mess when you can read something better?
If someone try to amend the manga by attaching extra values you have to come by going deeper than the author himself, I can quote one part of DBS I liked (Zamasu arc), until I've come with the fact I was adding more by my own metanarrative than the authors did. I was 'figuring out' a better plot - it's like buying a terrible book and write the missing tenses on your own. That qualify the book as a bad thing. Objectively.
If once I thought it was anime schedule, the fact the issue show up again in the manga is to me evident they don't care. No one care. So why I should? And I want for people to notice.

I suspect a number of people is doing exactly that: attaching more value to a story that's good by intent, but poorly narrated to the point the good intent require so much effort to rise that doing *my own fanfiction* will be less costly - and I'm ot even sure the intent was the one I'm comeing with.

My critics are about that. And to me, is quite astounding that people can eat such stuff and didn't perceived the scam behind, the lack of passion, the lazy execution and the overall "they'll eat whatever, so give them whatever" that I can *clearly* see, crystal as the summer sky.

To me, you can pretend more, you should and you're in full right to pretend more.
But if you're satisfied by such poor meal *that's the thing* and none of my words or any other words should never put you in doubt to be *morally wrong*. The critic is about the product, *not you* that like it.
If you do feel morally assaulted by bad critics on a product you like, you're extending your comfort zone to me - and I'm not just a bunch of lines on *your* device, I'm not a system bug on your perfectly fit life, not I'm polarizing anything - I'm just another human being you cannot control, with different perspectives.

So, critics on critics are silly to the point I don't think they're rational at all.
Interesting, enlightened post. Here is an accompanying picture you could add to go along with it for better comprehension.

Image

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LoganForkHands73
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:03 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:51 pm
What personally annoys me a bit is when it becomes less about even-handed discussion and giving one’s own opinions, and more about trying to “debunk” the opinions of the other party without really addressing what they’re saying, which I believe is why the tone of these threads has become more combative.
I agree with this sentiment. I'm all for greater patience and understanding. On the other hand, I think many of us are drawn to forums (instead of social media, for example) because we're interested in conversation and can be convinced. I've changed my mind on plenty of things (the dub, music, animation, etc.) because of conversations I've had on these forums. In those cases, my foundation for holding a previous opinion was "debunked", and for better or worse, not always in a civil manner. If someone claims to dislike something, but is invested enough to spend hours discussing it every month, they probably like it more than they're letting on. So if someone claims they don't like something for "x" reason, but they can be shown to view it another way, they might.
Yeah, I'd like to hope this is the case. Nothing better than having your view changed or changing someone else's.
I don't think this accurately represents the balance of criticism at all, personally. The treatment of Toyotaro by "hardcore" fans, here and across the internet, has been uncharitable (to put it generously) since the start of the DBS manga. One of the best examples was Trunks' healing powers; fans were up in arms at Toyo for "plot holes" and incompetence" before the reveal. The same thing happened before Merus was reveal to be an angel. I can think of very few instances of people admitting they overreacted in those circumstances, although the "wait until the chapter actually comes out" discourse on Twitter has definitely improved.

As for excited speculation about where the story may lead...let me put it this way. Anyone commenting with certainty about where the story will go before it's over (and especially when it's just starting) is going to be wrong. Dragon Ball - even Super - is hard to predict. That's what makes it fun. Still, if you're eagerly anticipating the next part of the story, it can be fun to guess how things might unfold. I'd rather read that than unfounded pessimism; at least wait until the story is resolved before complaining about things that haven't happened. In both cases, anyone engaging should dial down the certainty, but I don't think these are equal offenses.
Yeah, people used to be extremely harsh on Toyotaro, I also think the trolls and haters have generally died down across this forum and social media. People moaning about Merus was especially dumb. However, there's a thin line between the mindless haters and the honest critics, the latter of whom are not (always) being uncharitable or unreasonable in their assessments of the manga, vitriolic as they can be. I don't think it's fair to dismiss them just because the positive readings have also been dismissed in the past.

Let's flip the scenario. On this side of the forum, I've noticed a lot of dismissal of all non-Toriyama DB media. "Toei" seems to be regularly -- and very unfairly, in my opinion -- used as a shorthand for "worthless crap", like calling someone Scrappy-Doo. The sentiment seems to extend way past the Dragon Ball Super anime, though that's often the main target. As much as I think it's a bit OTT, I've come to just accept that that's the general consensus here, it's no skin off my nose if people think Toei sucks though I do find it funny when people, in the same breath, praise the last four movies to high heaven, all of them made by... which studio, again?

I don't mind harmless speculation. This side of the forum is very fixated on Deep Thematic Analysis, which is neither here nor there for most readers, but I noticed that in the case of the Granolah arc specifically, many people seemed way too eager to speculate on the thematic content of the story before it was even close to finished. I personally believe that thematic analysis is only really valuable with the benefit of clear hindsight. At most, you can maybe spot some recurring motifs, but the wider themes can only be vindicated when the story and the messages within are whole and complete. It's not a big deal to me, but I believe it speaks to the weaknesses of the arc that more people were interested in dissecting their own imaginary roleplay scenarios rather than the actual published story. On both sides of the love-hate spectrum, there are people who are seeing things that simply aren't there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:04 pm

Alas, we are in the Dragon Ball Super manga chapter discussion thread having read up to the 86th chapter of Dragon Ball Super. Tis an unfortunate fate indeed for those who either liked/positively commented on something like this instead of (reading) something better, or those who disliked/negatively commented on something like this instead of (reading) something better. Or something worse, if you're into that.
Last edited by Shorty GZ2 on Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:24 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:04 pm Alas, we are in the Dragon Ball Super manga chapter discussion thread having read up to the 86th chapter of Dragon Ball Super. Tis an unfortunate fate indeed for those who either liked/positively commented on something like this instead of (reading) something better, or those who disliked/negatively commented on something like this instead of (reading) something better. Or worse, if you're into that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:01 am

TKA wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:44 am
Marz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:16 amwhy keep following it?
In the hopes that the narrative will get better.

It's not rocket surgery here. We enjoyed the manga from the first tournament until the end of the tournament of power. That's like 6 years, man. Now we see it dipping and not being enjoyable, but we want it to be again so we keep reading, hoping it will recapture that magic.
First time I've heard the manga ToP called "magic". Usually it gets lambasted. Rightly so imo. I didnt like the manga or anime ToP. Its when they gave up entirely on scaling and making sense in general.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:56 am

TBMx wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:01 am
First time I've heard the manga ToP called "magic". Usually it gets lambasted. Rightly so imo. I didnt like the manga or anime ToP.
Cool.
Its when they gave up entirely on scaling and making sense in general.
I don't give a shit about the power level community and their inability to understand context, or storytelling. Can't speak for the anime, but the manga had nothing egregious.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:27 pm

TKA wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:56 am
TBMx wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:01 am
First time I've heard the manga ToP called "magic". Usually it gets lambasted. Rightly so imo. I didnt like the manga or anime ToP.
Cool.
Its when they gave up entirely on scaling and making sense in general.
I don't give a shit about the power level community and their inability to understand context, or storytelling. Can't speak for the anime, but the manga had nothing egregious.

Inb4"RoshiDodgedJiren"
Gohan drawing Kefla after Kale by herself nearly ringed out SSB Goku. And despite Vados saying Kefla may be unmatched at the tournament. Making an angel look stupid cos of Gohans random asspull is pretty egregious, as she said this after witnessing Gokus full power MSSB attempt on Jiren.
Vegeta denying he ever had a mentor despite y'know, Whis.
Vegeta asspulling SSBE , a form without name or explanation cos he was frustrated at his limits against Jiren and powered up hard in SSB, Goku did the exact same thing for the exact same reasons, is also a pureblood saiyan with MSSB at the same level as Vegeta and yet nada. No explanation given. Aka the start of the video game logic with forms. Goku gets one form cos its that way in the manual. Vegeta gets another cos the manual says so. Doesnt matter if they do the same things or if one is objectively better and should be easily accessible. Goku cant get SSBE just because its reserved for Vegeta. Vegeta can't get even ROshis bootleg UI lite despite the years he put into it just because UI is reserved for Goku, causing Vegeta to instantly give up on it, despite wanting it since RoF. The ToP 's explanation is that it doesnt suit him, which is lazy as Vegeta was told what UI is and never said it didnt suit him before. Its like the ToP replaced him with a different character. Which we see to this day. DBS cant decide who he is as hes meditating in DBS Superhero and brings up UI like ideas anyway. The ToP made it a confusing mess as to what he wants.

And yeah. Roshi dodged Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:05 am

Roshi dodging Jiren is the most impactful example demonstrating that Ultra Instinct is more about skill than raw power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:13 am

batistabus wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:05 am Roshi dodging Jiren is the most impactful example demonstrating that Ultra Instinct is more about skill than raw power.
At the cost of burying the actual UI, cos when Goku fails to dodge anything from opponents such as Gas when the power gap between his Saiyan UI and Gas is less than Roshi and Jiren - that shows this is just an anything goes setting. The anything goes thing started at the ToP.
I don't think they'd have bothered to explain why Vegeta was weaker against Hit than Goku was in a lower form, if it was written today.

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