Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

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Alkiser
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:44 pm

TBMx wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:13 am
batistabus wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:05 am Roshi dodging Jiren is the most impactful example demonstrating that Ultra Instinct is more about skill than raw power.
At the cost of burying the actual UI, cos when Goku fails to dodge anything from opponents such as Gas when the power gap between his Saiyan UI and Gas is less than Roshi and Jiren - that shows this is just an anything goes setting. The anything goes thing started at the ToP.
I don't think they'd have bothered to explain why Vegeta was weaker against Hit than Goku was in a lower form, if it was written today.
It is Ultra Instinct the body is supposed to move on its own, not Ultra Evasion which guarantees you to dodge every blow.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:35 pm

TBMx wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:27 pm Gohan drawing Kefla after Kale by herself nearly ringed out SSB Goku. And despite Vados saying Kefla may be unmatched at the tournament. Making an angel look stupid cos of Gohans random asspull is pretty egregious, as she said this after witnessing Gokus full power MSSB attempt on Jiren.
Vegeta denying he ever had a mentor despite y'know, Whis.
Vegeta asspulling SSBE , a form without name or explanation cos he was frustrated at his limits against Jiren and powered up hard in SSB, Goku did the exact same thing for the exact same reasons, is also a pureblood saiyan with MSSB at the same level as Vegeta and yet nada. No explanation given. Aka the start of the video game logic with forms. Goku gets one form cos its that way in the manual. Vegeta gets another cos the manual says so. Doesnt matter if they do the same things or if one is objectively better and should be easily accessible. Goku cant get SSBE just because its reserved for Vegeta. Vegeta can't get even ROshis bootleg UI lite despite the years he put into it just because UI is reserved for Goku, causing Vegeta to instantly give up on it, despite wanting it since RoF. The ToP 's explanation is that it doesnt suit him, which is lazy as Vegeta was told what UI is and never said it didnt suit him before. Its like the ToP replaced him with a different character. Which we see to this day. DBS cant decide who he is as hes meditating in DBS Superhero and brings up UI like ideas anyway. The ToP made it a confusing mess as to what he wants.

And yeah. Roshi dodged Jiren.
Everything here is exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said people obsessed with power levels don't actually read the story care about context.

I won't go over all the issues with what you've said because I'm certain people already have with you elsewhere. I know I've certainly had to explain it to people in these threads echoing the same tired talking points.

Instead, I'll just say you'll enjoy stories a lot more and get a lot more out of them when you engage with them and ponder why certain choices are made instead of kneejerk reacting with "bad writing".
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:46 pm

batistabus wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:05 am Roshi dodging Jiren is the most impactful example demonstrating that Ultra Instinct is more about skill than raw power.
yeah, but the difference in power was enormous. Frankly, a line about Jiren having to hold back to avoid casually killing Muten thus Muten's skill giving him the chance to keep up for a little until Jiren adapted would have worked wonders.

Especially with Manga Jiren stating he always uses 100% of his power and ability, thus implying Muten's skill was SO high he could keep up with a "always serious" Jiren

(anime is a wholly different beast: in the Jiren acts the opposite, always matching his adversary)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:56 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:46 pm
batistabus wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:05 am Roshi dodging Jiren is the most impactful example demonstrating that Ultra Instinct is more about skill than raw power.
yeah, but the difference in power was enormous. Frankly, a line about Jiren having to hold back to avoid casually killing Muten thus Muten's skill giving him the chance to keep up for a little until Jiren adapted would have worked wonders.

Especially with Manga Jiren stating he always uses 100% of his power and ability, thus implying Muten's skill was SO high he could keep up with a "always serious" Jiren

(anime is a wholly different beast: in the Jiren acts the opposite, always matching his adversary)
It’s the opposite. Manga Jiren only ever uses exactly as much power as is needed, keeping the rest in reserve.

It’s part of his response to Vegeta’s assertion that he never fights with anything on the line. He takes everything battle seriously enough to not waste more strength than necessary, in case anything goes wrong.

We don’t see him at full power until his fight with Ultra Instinct Goku.

I think the scene with Kame Sennin itself, especially combined with that later dialogue from Jiren, justifies how that plays out just fine.

I don’t remember how the anime goes, but manga Jiren is very explicit about his “always matching his opponent” philosophy. The dialogue in question comes just after he’s attacked by Blue Evolution Vegeta.

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Jack Bz
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:35 am

Yeah, Jiren basically says he tries to be 100% efficient with his movements at all times. That doesn't equate to going all out with every opponent you face.

Krillin notes when Jiren first has an aura, which is against UI sign, and it's made clear he wasn't ever using his full power until that point.

The tournament being a no killing tournament and Jiren's martial arts philosophy is more than enough for me to rationalise Roshi momentarily dodging Jiren until he uses a little bit more power.

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