Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:59 am

jd55513 wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:10 pm [snip]

Now back to the current discussion. The reason giving up revenge is a narratively sound and consistent and is a nice bow on the character of Granolah is due to the fact that Monaito warned Granolah of the troubles and conflict that using Dragon Balls would usher. New foes and nothing but suffering and pain would occur because Granolah is trapped by his past and his identity of being some savior or having to carry a burden of bringing justice to the Cerealieans.
Granolah sought the use of Dragon Balls for selfish reasons which is a big no for Buddhist beliefs, as it puts you further in a illusion.
As Monaito explained, the Dragon Balls are to be used for selfless reasons, generally as a reward to brave warriors.
We know that almost everyone who has made selfish wishes receives negative karma as a result of using them.
Granolah recieved his punishment by nearly dieing and going blind in the face of other more powerful enemies, as Monaito foreshadowed, and at the cost of being surpassed by the Saiyan and Gas, with a little lifespan.

Hearing the voice of Bardock in his comatose state, gave him time to reflect on the Saiyans and the choices he made up to that point.
Seeing that Bardock save his life, and that Goku and Vegeta are fighting for his safety probably broke through the anger and hatred he had in himself. He probably pities Gas too, as he represents another "Granolah" who gave up everything to fall short.

Granolah has matured, just like Vegeta when it comes to past mistakes and guilt/hatred.
This is all well and good, but people here are complaining more about that we/they didn't get to see the "hearing the voice of Bardock in his comatose state, gave him time to reflect on the Saiyans and the choices he made up to that point, seeing that Bardock save his life, and that Goku and Vegeta are fighting for his safety probably broke through the anger and hatred he had in himself" being explicitly depicted to lead Granolah to the conclusion of him giving up revenge, rather than that conclusion in itself. It's not necessarily a dealbreaker for me that I have to assume/surmise it "probably" happened based on all of the horrible stuff he's wrought upon himself/his close ones from his revenge & his general words/demeanor this recent chapter, but it is for some that that detailed process was skipped over to finish up the final battle (I wouldn't have minded another chapter for it even if it'd elongate the arc by another month lmao).

Also, https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1272.html the DB official site published basically a summary of the whole arc up till now, so it's useful if you need a quick refresh or maybe look into what exactly the story was telling/what was being told.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:20 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:59 am Also, https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1272.html the DB official site published basically a summary of the whole arc up till now, so it's useful if you need a quick refresh or maybe look into what exactly the story was telling/what was being told.
Gotta love how this article calls this an amazing arc and names the Goku vs Gas battle exciting.
Almost feels like the one who wrote it has a big case of Ultra Ego :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:53 am

Before Gas can deliver the final blow, Goku saves Vegeta and transforms into his black-haired Ultra Instinct form! However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct! With this newfound transformation, Goku overwhelms the strongest warrior in the universe, sending Gas crashing to the ground with a devastating attack!
This is such a strange way to describe what Goku did there. The silver-haired Ultra Instinct is supposed to be the true Ultra Instinct, no? Perhaps it would be better to say “Goku has finally figured out his unique version of Ultra Instinct” and “with this newfound power…”.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jjbgood » Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:00 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:53 am
Before Gas can deliver the final blow, Goku saves Vegeta and transforms into his black-haired Ultra Instinct form! However, this is a different form of Ultra Instinct in which Goku retains his emotions: in other words, Goku has finally awoken his true Ultra Instinct! With this newfound transformation, Goku overwhelms the strongest warrior in the universe, sending Gas crashing to the ground with a devastating attack!
This is such a strange way to describe what Goku did there. The silver-haired Ultra Instinct is supposed to be the true Ultra Instinct, no? Perhaps it would be better to say “his unique version of Ultra Instinct” and “with this newfound power”.
as far as i understand: the silver hair form (mastered ultra instinct) is a transformations that helps him to use UI. But now he uses it basically in his base form, without an transformation. Did Whis not mention something like this long before? "You will not need that transformation, once you made the technique your own", or something like that? Its kinda what they tried with the SSJGod in Battle of Gods. He attained the power of the transformation in his base form, so he doesnt need to transform anymore (yeah, that was retconned, i know). Knowing Toyotarou how he loves to bring back old forms and give them meanings, i guess, we will see omen and mastered again and again, even with the explaination, that he now has mastered the true ultra instinct without the need of any transformation...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jul 24, 2022 11:08 am

Did I interpret it right? Goku was out cold and the silver hair form was activated on its own, surpassing True MnG, after Elec said Granny was about to destroy the planet? or was he just lying down?

All of this needs to be addressed by the story, everybody was convinced it was Sign but improved-ish.
I mean, by the end of chapter 85, Goku drops the aura but his hair isn't entirely black, it has the Sign shades it always had, you leave 85 thinking it's Sign. But this month, without the aura, is just base Goku with silver eyes, and some website saying it's a new form.

If the reader is going by the art, it needs to be consistent, if it is not, then the author needs to be more explicit about it. Readers cannot be expected to also visit the V-Jump website.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:59 pm

I agree with many of the complaints about the arc, but manga threads have really become unbearable. At this point I'm convinced that people are more concerned with finding the next new thing to complain about rather than doing a sober analysis. It became forced now. And people who appreciate things about the arc almost seem to feel guilty about it because others are just complaining all the time, so they always need to put "but" in the middle, which is kinda sad. I don't really have the will to even discuss about any of it tbh

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:49 pm

"True Ultra Instinct" seems just more like Goku's overall better grasp on UI (the state/technique) by making it his own (i.e. with emotions like a Saiyan rather than an Angel), rather than a new form entirely. Goku does have the Sign hair highlights & aura for a total of 2-3 pages this chapter before he gets choked/heavy-hit out into base form hair/no aura (with still UI eyes). Vegeta does note last chapter of Goku's new UI "fighting style" rather than the form though (also should be noted Vegeta wasn't there when Goku named/used UI Sign against Moro, so he wouldn't know to call it that anyway).

It's always odd talking about "Ultra Instinct" since even now, the term gets conflated/shares the name with the state, the form(s) & the technique/fighting style. It doesn't help that the silver-haired form is called "Perfected Ultra Instinct" when it's not really 'perfected' & it's just a power boost which mandates a calm UI state/mind/heart & allows UI (the technique) to be used at max accuracy/efficiency.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:48 pm

Marz wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:59 pmAt this point I'm convinced that people are more concerned with finding the next new thing to complain about rather than doing a sober analysis
I'm fine with taking a step back and not engaging if it's going to be a bummer to those enjoying this.

It's shit like this that I don't like though. The only reason I bother to say anything about the dip in writing quality was because I enjoyed the manga from its debut until the end of the Tournament of Power. I want that level of storycraft back. I didn't give a rat's ass about the anime, so you didn't see me in anime threads saying "this shit sucks" (not that I even do that with the manga; I give very clear critiques about what I didn't enjoy and where those things fell short).

I want to like the story, but it's not giving me a reason to. I'd hate to have to start treating this manga like I've treated every piece of non-Toriyama spearheaded Dragonball content since the 90s: totally pointless fluff not really worth thinking or talking about.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:38 pm

I'm tired of having to explain my general process for reviewing chapters every month while also constantly having to emphasize that I'm not looking for things to complain about, so I won't be entertaining remarks like that anymore. Y'all can think whatever you want.

This, however...
Marz wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:59 pm And people who appreciate things about the arc almost seem to feel guilty about it because others are just complaining all the time, so they always need to put "but" in the middle, which is kinda sad.
...is patently untrue. Nobody here is jumping down anyone's throat for feeling more positive about this arc, and if anything, the exact opposite has been the case from what I've personally observed; some of those who aren't as let down by these chapters are routinely having something to say about those who are, often unprovoked, occasionally even resorting to personally directed potshots for no reason. I've been on the receiving end of that, myself.

So here's some friendly advice: don't worry about what I think. I'm just one dude with an opinion. If you really want more positive responses, nobody's stopping you from coming up with them on your own. There's no need to be so cartoonishly reactionary towards other people for expressing their disappointment.

Besides, I generally only post just a few times in these threads because I don't want to be a drag. The last time I posted in this one was Thursday.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:26 am

One detail I liked about Gas was his aura. It's unique as far as I can tell? It's a bunch of little ki flares. I wonder how that might look animated.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:14 pm

I have no problems with complaints. As long as they are legitimate. That grievances are made with an understanding of the story. Not murmuring about issues the plot answered or explained.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:23 pm

Can Ultra Instinct be 'true' if it relies on emotional intensity to improve it? I suppose they had to find some way to make the anime version of Perfected Ultra Instinct canon to the manga though...
Since it's looking like Oil & Macki are showing some legit concern for Gas and are more diplomatic in comparison to their younger brother & Elec, are we going to see them undergo a heel-face turn in the coming chapter(s)? Because Android 17 & 18 started off ready to throw down and cause destruction on their way to battle Goku but they eventually turned good. It's interesting to note that Elec thus far has been the only one to openly display malicious intentions and subsequent evil acts of his own accord and while Gas has acted pretty violently himself, he's just following the orders of his older brother. Gas might even be capable of undergoing a turn but possibly in an unexpected manner or action, like how Android 17 internally influenced Super 17 to show an opening in his guard. Elec probably has a backup plan and Gas' undiscovered desire for autonomy could be just the thing to counter it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 pm

theherodjl wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:23 pm Can Ultra Instinct be 'true' if it relies on emotional intensity to improve it?
In relation to the story, "true" is only concerning Goku embracing his Saiyan identity with this particular UI. As far as UI in general, silver haired form is the universal truth. Beerus acknowledges so in both anime/manga when Goku reached it in the TOP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:50 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 pm
theherodjl wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:23 pm Can Ultra Instinct be 'true' if it relies on emotional intensity to improve it?
In relation to the story, "true" is only concerning Goku embracing his Saiyan identity with this particular UI. As far as UI in general, silver haired form is the universal truth. Beerus acknowledges so in both anime/manga when Goku reached it in the TOP.
I also think its possible to be both tranquil/calm & emotional/rageful at the same time even though they seem oxymoronic. The way manga UI took to get to basically anime UI was pretty odd but I think the "Goku, as an emotional Saiyan, is fundamentally different to a calm Angel" conflict/angle was a workable way around/to it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:56 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:14 pm I have no problems with complaints. As long as they are legitimate. That grievances are made with an understanding of the story. Not murmuring about issues the plot answered or explained.
Just because it explains it doesn’t mean it explains it well.

That’s kinda my point: the story telling is below average therefore it is not effective.

Kinda getting tired of this idea that I don’t like this arc because I don’t understand the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:04 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:56 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:14 pm I have no problems with complaints. As long as they are legitimate. That grievances are made with an understanding of the story. Not murmuring about issues the plot answered or explained.
Just because it explains it doesn’t mean it explains it well.

That’s kinda my point: the story telling is below average therefore it is not effective.

Kinda getting tired of this idea that I don’t like this arc because I don’t understand the story.
I wasn't talking about you or anyone specific. I just said I don't mind valid complaints in general. I didn't even read your post.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:28 am

batistabus wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:26 am One detail I liked about Gas was his aura. It's unique as far as I can tell? It's a bunch of little ki flares. I wonder how that might look animated.
That's a good topic. As far as I know, with Super, the anime and manga have their own takes on aura. Whenever the Super anime comes back, I wonder which direction they'll take with it. The anime usually goes crazy with the special effects but I tend to like it ... as long as it's not like SSBE Vegeta ... :sick:

I like the naturalistic look of the SSB aura in the manga though.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:19 am

jjbgood wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:00 am
as far as i understand: the silver hair form (mastered ultra instinct) is a transformations that helps him to use UI. But now he uses it basically in his base form, without an transformation. Did Whis not mention something like this long before? "You will not need that transformation, once you made the technique your own", or something like that? Its kinda what they tried with the SSJGod in Battle of Gods. He attained the power of the transformation in his base form, so he doesnt need to transform anymore (yeah, that was retconned, i know). Knowing Toyotarou how he loves to bring back old forms and give them meanings, i guess, we will see omen and mastered again and again, even with the explaination, that he now has mastered the true ultra instinct without the need of any transformation...
That's not what it is. Whis' suggestion earlier was meant for Goku to use Ultra Instinct in his weaker forms because using Ultra Instinct in his Silver-haired form uses up too much stamina. This is why Whis tells Goku only to use the Silver-haired form as a trump card.

The idea of Goku discovering his own Ultra Instinct is something that is touched up on much later. When Goku does use "True Ultra Instinct" for the first time, Gas merely questions why Goku isn't using the Silver-haired form since it is his strongest. Goku's response to this is that he isn't using it and decided that this form works best because it allows him to put his emotions to use. This website also states that Goku returned to his black-haired form and his Base form isn't a transformation.

Essentially, True Ultra Instinct = Ultra Instinct Omen + Saiyan Pride/Emotions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ten na nGael » Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:22 pm

Although I think the fight was too long overall, the last two chapters have had some nice little details. Like Goku kicking Gas upward and then releasing a follow up blast from his foot. There have been plenty of things like that during this fight, like the train exchange.
I hope next month gives a nice wrap up to the arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:16 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:38 pm ...is patently untrue. Nobody here is jumping down anyone's throat for feeling more positive about this arc, and if anything, the exact opposite has been the case from what I've personally observed; some of those who aren't as let down by these chapters are routinely having something to say about those who are, often unprovoked, occasionally even resorting to personally directed potshots for no reason. I've been on the receiving end of that, myself.
That was not what I meant. People who aren't enjoying the arc aren't complaining about people who are positive about it, but people who are positive about it seem to be wary of genuinely saying they like or appreciate things about the arc because the environment has become so negative. Like, last month the mod had to ask people to actually discuss the story in the threads dedicated to the chapter because people were just spitting out the same complaints for months. I mean, yeah, you can hate the story, but you have to wonder why people like that even keep following it (this isn't about you, I'm speaking generally).

I'm obviously not condemning criticism or saying people should just be positive about the story, but the threads have gotten to the point of annoying repetition, nothing new is bring to the table.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:38 pm So here's some friendly advice: don't worry about what I think. I'm just one dude with an opinion. If you really want more positive responses, nobody's stopping you from coming up with them on your own. There's no need to be so cartoonishly reactionary towards other people for expressing their disappointment
I don't post often, I usually just read a few posts. But surely any desire to post in chapter threads is long gone. Simply because there's nothing interesting to discuss when people just repeat the same things for months and aren't really interested in discussing the direction of the plot. And if there's not interest because they think the story is boring, why keep following it?

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