Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:38 pm

Soba Mask wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:30 pmWell to be honest the whole manga is really bad.
Then why are you reading it....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:10 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:38 pm
Soba Mask wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:30 pmWell to be honest the whole manga is really bad.
Then why are you reading it....
Best to at least be fully informed of what you criticise/take issue with on a regular basis, I suppose. Though with 45 page manga chapters being described as "grueling" to read - i.e. viewing series of images with text on them by clicking on/swiping the screen around 23-45 times (depending on page layout) in the span of like 20-30 mins of a day, tops - at least once every month, perhaps there's more than something in what you ask.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:10 pm

Hey, looks like Toyotaro finally remembered Granolah exists.

Don't see the need for him praising Bardock for some reason, but hey.

Please, for the love of God, let this be the end of this fight. Nothing was accomplished, there was no building in this fight and it was just a conveyor belt of tropes and random shit happening. It developed no character, nor did it expand on much.

Please be over.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:22 am

I still think the Cerelean DBs will get destroyed because of all the harm they caused. Maybe by Granolah or even Monaito himself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:40 am

kemuri07 wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:59 am DBZ Abridged Future Trunks: "...that was anticlimactic."


Like yeah, to put us through this arc for over a year only for Granolah to be like, "yo I heard Papa Bardock in like, my dreams, so I don't hate you guys anymore!" is just kinda, what the fuck? Like, yeah this was always the path that it was going to take, but it did in such a rushed fashion. This is what people meant when they say this arc just ignores Granolah. You can go a literally point at times he's in the chapters, but the focus is not on him. Granolah: The Survivor completely abandons the character arc of the title character for fucking fan service. And then to just dismiss his vendetta against Frieza and the Saiyans because he heard fucking Bardock is just insane to me. Like this is bad. Like really bad.

And I get it. I get that some here don't care, I get that some people are here for the cool fights and the cool forms and don't think about this series as any thing more than that. But the thing is--DBZ used to be good at this. It used to be good at maintaining a coherent narrative with well developed stakes. Does anyone actually give a shit about anything going on? Nothing matters. It's all so inconsequential and has no affect on any of the characters or narrative as DB. Vegeta gets a new form, and so what? The same thing happens. Goku supposedly gets some new lease on being a Saiyan, and it does nothing to him as a character. Like he fights Gas the same exact way he fights everyone else. None of this matters.

And I know some people are excited to finally move on, but man I don't have faith it''l be any better than this. There are some issues with the franchise as a whole that no one seems to be willing to fix. And because of that, the same shit is going to happen.

Jeez I hope Super Hero is as good as people have been saying.
I mean, that's how Toyotaro treated Future Trunks in his own arc, so I don't see where the surprise is. That's how he structures EVERY arc. Sideline every other character (Piccolo in U6, Trunks in the Future Trunks arc, everyone else in the ToP, but specifically the big three Gohan, Freeza and 17) and only have Goku and Vegeta do relevant stuff, have Vegeta lose badly then Goku comes back and kicks ass, have him lose due to plot issues and then have another support character come in and help save the day as a big "surprise" (Trunks in his arc, Freeza in the ToP, Meerus in the Moro arc and Granolah now).

Sure, other characters do stuff, like the Z-FIghters fighting Moro's goons, or eliminating randos in the ToP, but the events usually appear contrived in such a way to include them, rather than feel like the natural flow of events.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Captain Awesome » Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:09 am

So glad I could live to see new Dragon Ball manga to see *checks chapter* Goku vs Hulk hands.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:28 am

Captain Awesome wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:09 am So glad I could live to see new Dragon Ball manga to see *checks chapter* Goku vs Hulk hands.
And don't forget the giant shoes :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:34 am

This chapter went 300 miles a minute. Definitely felt fusterclucky. I can't help but feel this could have been wrapped up better if we didn't have so much extended fighting and cliffhangers.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:38 am

Okay I actually enjoyed this chapter quite a lot, partly because it actually finished off the entire fight with Gas but also because the fighting itself had some pretty wack abilities being shown off. I kind of wish Toyo left out the entire berserk gas mode thing and replaced it with this, shorten down the previous fights and get to this part far earlier than he did. I don't know if this is a term that can be used to describe something, but this arc has a lot of stagnant fighting, where the fights don't progress enough, with neither side able to get an advantage for far too long. I don't mind this if its used in a single chapter or two chapters, but honestly the second that Gas started fighting the gang, its been a non stop stalemate. Over all the future outlook is looking bright for this arc, Gas is out of gas, Elec is still standing and this arc is nearing its end, maybe??? We gotta see if the conclusion will be worth while though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:39 am

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 86:

- Legit forget this chapter came out yesterday. (That tells you how much I'm invested in this arc)

- I find the Ki-enlarged attacks to be weird and kinda lame. Like, the giant fist, giant boot and giant spirit Goku just seem too... Shonen-esque (?)

- Oil and Macki are such jabronis. Taken out so easily by an old Namekian who had no prior indication of having any sort of unique abilities. I hope Toyotaro is saving them for something important later down the line because they felt so underutilized as characters to the point where they feel more like props.

- The whole climax borrowed heavily from the climax of the Goku/Piccolo/Raditz fight of the Saiyan arc. I don't mind. If you're gonna borrow, borrow from the best.

- I wish Gas was dead, there's no point in keeping him alive. He's not going to pull a heel-face turn and I doubt he's going to fight again or have any sort of character arc.

- Granolah's character arc was pretty quickly resolved in the end. Ugh. His character has been handled so badly in the arc, especially when you take into consideration how good it started. I thought the whole point of Granolah's wish to be the strongest in the universe was that he would keep getting stronger (so that the objective behind the wish would be constantly maintained) but instead, that seemed to be thrown out the window so they could be over a dozen chapters of Goku and Vegeta getting into what turned out to be a battle with an enemy who is so underdeveloped as a character, he's fit into something like Dragon Ball Heroes than an official midquel of the original manga.

I wouldn't even mind if Granolah was benched in his own story arc if this led to some major themes being developed in his absence or some character development being given to Goku, Vegeta and Gas. But that didn't happen. Instead, there were meaningless flashbacks of Bardock that were supposed to lead to Goku developing his own version of Ultra Instinct but just lead to Goku fighting the same way as before, Vegeta hitting a dead end with Ultra Ego and Gas continuing to act like Saturday morning cartoon henchman. Granolah's entire character arc was effectively shelved for fan service and to maintain the status quo. This is not good storytelling.

Overall thoughts... thank God this shit is finally over! for now

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:49 am

Gas won't stay dead. He's probably going to get revived after he dies burning himself out. Either by Granolah or by the Heaters, but he's certainly not staying dead. After this, he, Oil and Maki are probably going to leave Elec in the dust. If Elec gets his comeuppance I'm not sure, but I see him getting out alive, with his only punishment being losing his gang.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:55 am

The fact that Granolah reaches this pivotal moment of walking away from vengeance..."and it all happens offscreen and because of based Bardock" is so laughable.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:03 am

kemuri07 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:55 am The fact that Granolah reaches this pivotal moment of walking away from vengeance..."and it all happens offscreen and because of based Bardock" is so laughable.
It wasn't off-screen. Granolah's development has been ongoing since he encountered Goku and Vegeta, and it's something that Monaito has been trying to drill into him for his whole life. As for Bardock, Granolah heard the same flashback that we saw while unconscious (possibly in the past in addition to the present).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:19 am

Draconic wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:40 am I mean, that's how Toyotaro treated Future Trunks in his own arc, so I don't see where the surprise is.
Nah. From the start, the Future Trunks arc's whole premise is Trunks putting his hopes in Goku and Vegeta while offering support, which he proceeds to do up until the end. It's under no illusions about Trunks's role, Trunks is never ignored in the story, and it helps that it's a briskly paced arc in general.

What this arc does is build Granolah up as the emotional and thematic centerpiece for two volumes, then completely takes the focus away from him for the remainder of his own story *without a hint of irony* to instead have the plot revolve around some dumbass one-dimensional henchman that literally none of the protags and none of the readers have a reason to care about. Nine chapters of Gas and absolutely nothing to show for it. That's a world of difference.

Just grueling all around, really.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:50 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:19 am then completely takes the focus away from him for the remainder of his own story *without a hint of irony* to instead have the plot revolve around some dumbass one-dimensional henchman that literally none of the characters and none of the readers have a reason to care about.
I don't know if that's a fair way to describe Granolah's removal from the story. It's a chance for him to be reborn. He gives up everything for revenge, is fed up and wants to die, accepts death, is nearly killed, and reemerges with a new attitude. Was he gone for too long? Well...I wanted him back sooner.

Gas has depth and motivation that is more than most critics on this forum give him credit for, but he's not exactly dripping with depth or charisma, either. I did like what was shown and I think it's in line with what we should expect from a Dragon Ball story (although I could've used more along the lines of pants-peeing). Besides that, Gas' action was a standout element of the arc. The guy had no end to his arsenal of techniques.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:01 pm

The rebirth shouldn’t happen offscreen.

Whether it’s Excalibur or Zack Snyder’s Justice League, the rebirth has to happen onscreen. The character who is reborn then has to reason out why the way they were before wasn’t working and why they must be different now. Going “I heard your father’s voice” while you were offscreen for months isn’t how to do it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:07 pm

TKA wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:01 pm The rebirth shouldn’t happen offscreen.

Whether it’s Excalibur or Zack Snyder’s Justice League, the rebirth has to happen onscreen. The character who is reborn then has to reason out why the way they were before wasn’t working and why they must be different now. Going “I heard your father’s voice” while you were offscreen for months isn’t how to do it.
I don't agree with this attitude of deciding what must be done. I think it's kind of odd to point to a Zack Snyder work to explain how something in Dragon Ball should be presented.

We saw Granolah struggling throughout the arc. The catalyst and change happened right in front of us. Granolah's shift in attitude was anything but a shock.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:08 pm

I feel like this went nowhere. Besides Vegeta getting UE, nobody really accomplished anything or changed at all.

Granolah is the only character that could have caused an impression. Being sidelined removed that. Bardock felt nothing more than fan-service, I do not care about dead characters.

The expanded lore regarding the Namekians was alright, unfortunately it felt like a plot device and something that will be forgotten.

Kudos to Toyotarõ for trying to be creative with the fighting but I don't like the members projection at all. It actually feels like a downgrade because it removes most of the choreography.

The wrap up (if it happens there's a no zero chance of more punching for reasons), might improve the arc if there's some set up's and the information the Heeters acquired have actual consequence.

Onto the next arc, if it's better.

PS: Gas name is on point, he's a fart I'll never remember about. Perhaps Toyotarõ has Toriyama's talent for childish puns after all. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:49 pm

batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:50 am He gives up everything for revenge, is fed up and wants to die, accepts death, is nearly killed, and reemerges with a new attitude.
After spending so much initial investment on a character, ideally you'd want to see what drives them to adopt those new attitudes. Granolah already made allusions to being swayed by Bardock's words, but how did that come to pass? What was his reaction, and what made him want to abandon any notion of revenge against the Heeters? Why wasn't this metamorphosis of the arc's main character shown on screen? Delve into the psychology of the character. Show, don't tell.

Chapter 76 is the best chapter in the entire arc because it does exactly that, and that one's a pure action chapter. I don't think I'm asking for much.
batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:50 am Gas has depth and motivation that is more than most critics on this forum give him credit for
He's a less conflicted/interesting version of Jiren that holds a one-way grudge and wants his brother's approval. There's nothing to him beyond that, but even if the arc wanted to explore those concepts, it never builds on Gas's limited personality traits or familial bonds prior to him getting boosted and showing up to screw with everyone's day to make him feel like an intriguing antagonist. He's your typical henchman archetype, and that's it. That's his character.

I think you are entirely correct that Gas's intended "standout" element is his giant arsenal of epic moves and weapons and techniques, and to me, that's clearly his purpose for existing in this story. Toyotaro wants these chapters to look cool at the expense of telling a compelling narrative. Needless to say, I'm not interested. It's quite vapid, and I think it's easily more in line with something we'd expect from Heroes than Toriyama's mainline works.

In short, this is a character-driven arc on paper that decided to discard its own premise halfway through.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:16 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:49 pm After spending so much initial investment on a character, ideally you'd want to see what drives them to adopt those new attitudes. Granolah already made allusions to being swayed by Bardock's words, but how and why did that come to pass? What made him want to abandon any notion of revenge against the Heeters? Why wasn't this metamorphosis of the arc's main character shown on screen? Delve into the psychology of the character. Show, don't tell.

Chapter 76 is the best chapter in the entire arc because it does exactly that, and that one's a pure action chapter. I don't think I'm asking for much.
He wants to give up on revenge because he realizes nothing good can come of it. His pursuit has caused him to hurt the only people in the world that care about him (Monaito and Oatmeel) and endanger innocent civilians. If he hadn't been so eager to get revenge on Freeza and make his wish, none of this would be happening. His father had tried to warn him, and the Saiyans tried to reach him, but he was too blinded by hate. If it wasn't shown on screen, how do I know? Granolah didn't verbally spell it out this chapter, but we already had all the pieces. Vegeta's final comment even amounts to "finally you get it".

Chapter 76 is also my favorite chapter. Vegeta dumped it blatantly all at once, but there are other valid ways to deliver information.
He holds a one-way grudge and wants his master's approval. There's nothing to him beyond that, but even if the arc wanted to explore those concepts, it never builds on Gas's limited personality traits or familial bonds prior to him getting boosted and showing up to screw with everyone's day to make him feel like an interesting antagonist. He's your typical henchman archetype, and that's it. That's his character.

I think you are entirely correct that Gas's intended "standout" element is his giant arsenal of epic moves and weapons and techniques, and to me, it's clear that that's his whole purpose for existing in this story. Toyotaro wants these chapters to look cool at the expense of telling a compelling narrative. Needless to say, I'm not interested. It's quite vapid, and I think it's easily more in line with something we'd expect from Heroes than Toriyama's mainline works.
It's more than wanting Elec's approval; it's wanting to serve his role within his family unit. Gas doesn't speak about Elec specifically; although Elec is the head, he wants to ensure that Heata reigns supreme. Elec manipulates him, but unlike Bibidi/Boo, Gas actually wants what Elec wants and doesn't view it as being used. Maki and Oil think Elec is taking things too far, but Gas would probably say they're not taking it far enough. Family - and what that means - is a big part of this arc, and Gas' view is an important layer of that. Not something you'd study in a literature class, but it's something.

Also, while Gas is the "antagonist" (I think A vs B labels are less important than the story taken as a whole), a lot of the actual focus while Granolah is asleep is put on Goku's/Vegeta's/Bardock's journey and mentality. Gas is a wall to overcome. Toyotaro tried to make him as visually interesting as possible, but what draws my attention (and the framing of the manga) is the conflict of the Saiyans.

The only thing that makes this resemble Heroes is the lack of humor, which is my biggest problem with the arc, but it's a superficial similarity.

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