Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Alkiser
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:51 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:39 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:55 am The fact that Granolah reaches this pivotal moment of walking away from vengeance..."and it all happens offscreen and because of based Bardock" is so laughable.
On the subject of Granolah's resignation to revenge, recall the previous chapters when Granolah woke up from his nightmare in the 68th chapter, and when in the 76th after his fight with Vegeta he was darting all over the place to make it all end already. Guy simply wanted through revenge to regain his peace of mind and free himself from the nightmares, most likely he had solidified his belief that revenge would let him get away from it all. But then when he saw what he had led to with his selfish decisions and then what happened he simply gave it up. He could have killed the warmers now but he embraced that it wouldn't have accomplished anything, in the 84th chapter Monaito put forth his idea that the pride of the race isn't about revenge either, which ties in with Granola's current change. His quest for revenge brought danger to Monaito, put the sugar city in danger of destruction and nearly killed two innocent saiyans.
The peasant has simply given up and wants to live his life in peace without destroying his life and the lives of others with revenge.

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:08 pm

batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:16 pm Vegeta dumped it blatantly all at once, but there are other valid ways to deliver information.
Chapter 76 delivered its information in multiple ways, both through dialogue and visual storytelling. Even by the end, Granolah still wanted his revenge. There is no 'delivering of information' in this case; you say the pieces are there, but we never see the pieces come together. What's set up is never paid off.

That is the crux of my issue with this arc. There is nothing more grating to me as a reader than having my investment gradually and meticulously built up over the course of several chapters only for the writer to go "lol jk, no more granolah, here check out my sweet choreography for another year with this baddie i've barely done anything with". I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy filler and meandering plot progression.
It's more than wanting Elec's approval; it's wanting to serve his role within his family unit.
As do most henchman archetypes. Again, very few of these chapters focus on Gas's characterization as much as the pre-Gas chapters do with Granolah; the most he gets is some pep talks from Elec, and most of his focus specifically went to his moveset.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

User avatar
OLKv3
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1820
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:51 pm

batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:03 am
kemuri07 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:55 am The fact that Granolah reaches this pivotal moment of walking away from vengeance..."and it all happens offscreen and because of based Bardock" is so laughable.
It wasn't off-screen. Granolah's development has been ongoing since he encountered Goku and Vegeta, and it's something that Monaito has been trying to drill into him for his whole life. As for Bardock, Granolah heard the same flashback that we saw while unconscious (possibly in the past in addition to the present).
It was definitely off screen. His last appearance before this chapter was ignoring Gas to try and murder Elec. He got ambushed by Gas and shot by Elec, and then was unconscious.
He wakes up, says he heard the flashback in his sleep, and now no longer wants revenge on Elec? COME ON.

User avatar
Alkiser
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:51 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:52 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:51 pm
batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:03 am
kemuri07 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:55 am The fact that Granolah reaches this pivotal moment of walking away from vengeance..."and it all happens offscreen and because of based Bardock" is so laughable.
It wasn't off-screen. Granolah's development has been ongoing since he encountered Goku and Vegeta, and it's something that Monaito has been trying to drill into him for his whole life. As for Bardock, Granolah heard the same flashback that we saw while unconscious (possibly in the past in addition to the present).
It was definitely off screen. His last appearance before this chapter was ignoring Gas to try and murder Elec. He got ambushed by Gas and shot by Elec, and then was unconscious.
He wakes up, says he heard the flashback in his sleep, and now no longer wants revenge on Elec? COME ON.
I was reminded of the Cell saga as Goku heard in his sleep, all talk of Androids and Cell.

EGonzo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:36 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:35 pm

Alkiser wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:52 pm
OLKv3 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:51 pm
batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:03 am
It wasn't off-screen. Granolah's development has been ongoing since he encountered Goku and Vegeta, and it's something that Monaito has been trying to drill into him for his whole life. As for Bardock, Granolah heard the same flashback that we saw while unconscious (possibly in the past in addition to the present).
It was definitely off screen. His last appearance before this chapter was ignoring Gas to try and murder Elec. He got ambushed by Gas and shot by Elec, and then was unconscious.
He wakes up, says he heard the flashback in his sleep, and now no longer wants revenge on Elec? COME ON.
I was reminded of the Cell saga as Goku heard in his sleep, all talk of Androids and Cell.
It reminded me of it too, but in the Cell saga all that does is save us a few panels of recap. Here it's a character's development that gets skipped over.

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:40 pm

batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:07 pm I don't agree with this attitude of deciding what must be done. I think it's kind of odd to point to a Zack Snyder work to explain how something in Dragon Ball should be presented.
You used the word "rebirth".

For a rebirth to happen, there has to be a triggering event, there has to be the moment where the character being reborn reckons with the past and there has to be resolution. It's thesis, antithesis and synthesis. That's a literary rebirth. It's a much shortened version of the hero's journey.

If that's not the context you intended, then fair enough. But if Granolah's sleep was meant to be the death of the old him, it is writing malpractice to NOT show him battling who he was and squaring it with who he wants to become. As writing goes, nothing is truly a "must" and it's not all that rigid. However, I can tell you I sure would've been more entertained watching Granolah come to grips with who he is/wants to be rather than 8 pointless chapters of fighting a nothing character like Gas, where nothing fucking happened.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

kemuri07
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:57 pm

Remember the arc is called Granolah the survivor not “Bardock is the basest, drippest bad ass there is.

Absolutely this chapter needed to show us with Granolah wrestling with his need for revenge and the willingness to walk away. It did not.

This is lazy.

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:17 pm

A good example of Granolah is actually Vegeta in the Buu arc. He starts the arc wanting to be his old self because he’s dissatisfied with who he is. He then tries to go back to his old self, but realizes he’s become far too complicated as a person to go back to being who he used to be. Then he dies.

Toriyama, if he was writing like Toyotaro, would’ve had Vegeta return later and be like “hey man, I figured my shit out. Let’s fuck Buu up together.” But that’s not what happened. He came back and listed his grievances so we, the audience, could see his change happen onscreen.

We watch for dozens more chapters as he reasons things out and why he is now at peace with who he was. The necessity of death to be reborn and reforged is very Campbellian, even though we know Toriyama probably fell ass backwards into it. You don’t need to have had everything planned out; you just need to have good writing instincts.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

User avatar
batistabus
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: DBS:SH

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:54 pm

TKA wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:40 pm For a rebirth to happen, there has to be a triggering event, there has to be the moment where the character being reborn reckons with the past and there has to be resolution. It's thesis, antithesis and synthesis. That's a literary rebirth. It's a much shortened version of the hero's journey.
>He almost dies and is comatose because his revenge nearly led him to ruin.
>On deaths door, he hears Bardock's story (which we see on screen and he tells us he heard). He reflects on that and on the events leading up to what he did. No need to show them again because they've already been presented in the story. If this were an anime, I'm sure we'd get plenty of reused animation flashbacks.
>He fights alongside his former enemies and shows mercy to his greatest adversaries. He has gone from villain to hero.
it is writing malpractice to NOT show him battling who he was and squaring it with who he wants to become. As writing goes, nothing is truly a "must" and it's not all that rigid. However, I can tell you I sure would've been more entertained watching Granolah come to grips with who he is/wants to be rather than 8 pointless chapters of fighting a nothing character like Gas, where nothing fucking happened.
Also @OLKv3 & kemuri07 since you guys are basically saying the same thing.

He has struggled with his revenge this whole arc. He knew he was wrong when Monaito warned him about the Dragon Balls, but he couldn't pass up the opportunity. He knew Goku and Vegeta weren't really bad guys early on, but he couldn't put aside his prejudice. He knew he became the bad guy when he scared and endangered the Sugarian family, but he felt that there was no turning back. He knew he was wrong to cast aside Monaito and Oatmeel but felt he had no other choice. And he nearly got himself killed in the process. His knowledge of error was demonstrated by his facial expressions and words at the time, and the cause of these errors was his quest for revenge. All the pieces were in place, and when he nearly died, he was able to start again. Not to mention that he started making progress the moment Vegeta gave him a senzu. The "who he wants to be" part starts today; he is showing you.
TKA wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:17 pm A good example of Granolah is actually Vegeta in the Buu arc...Toriyama, if he was writing like Toyotaro...
That's great and all, but that's a different character with different motivations in a completely different story. You speak with certainty as if you know this presentation was Toyotaro's doing instead of Toriyama's...we don't know that. You seem to want more vulnerability and melodrama for Granolah, yet that might be even less likely under Toriyama.
kemuri07 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:57 pm This is lazy.
Calling this "lazy" is meaningless and inaccurate. Nothing about drawing 45 pages a month without a hiatus in years is lazy. It is a creative decision you don't agree with.

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6332
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:11 am

I'll wait until we see how the resolution shakes out, but this is the first chapter in a long time where I felt like the events were very stock and predictable and the character beats that had been carrying the arc kind of disappeared.

Obviously we have Granolah getting over his revenge and rediscovering his ability to connect with and rely on others, but I think we knew he was over things when he was fighting for everyone's sake a few chapters back. Goku and Vegeta's respective revelations sort of took a back seat, and any reservations Gas may have had about the physical ramifications of last chapter's ending twist weren't present.

As pyrotechnics, I felt like the previous few months all had more enjoyable action. This felt like a very stock climax, if indeed it was one (and either way, it reads as one in serialization) for an arc that didn't feel all that stock and had managed to keep me guessing every month despite the small scope and contained structure.

I also don't know how I feel about two climaxes in a row hinging on giant energy Goku. Not that there's anything wrong with technique reuse, but it gets a full splash page and it's a surprise ending move that we just saw last ending.

I felt like this was a rather limp climax to an arc I mostly enjoyed. Or, as Bubastis points out, almost a climax that feels like it was matched to an arc substantially faster paced than this one was.

kemuri07
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:32 am

batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:54 pm
TKA wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:40 pm For a rebirth to happen, there has to be a triggering event, there has to be the moment where the character being reborn reckons with the past and there has to be resolution. It's thesis, antithesis and synthesis. That's a literary rebirth. It's a much shortened version of the hero's journey.
>He almost dies and is comatose because his revenge nearly led him to ruin.
>On deaths door, he hears Bardock's story (which we see on screen and he tells us he heard). He reflects on that and on the events leading up to what he did. No need to show them again because they've already been presented in the story. If this were an anime, I'm sure we'd get plenty of reused animation flashbacks.
>He fights alongside his former enemies and shows mercy to his greatest adversaries. He has gone from villain to hero.
it is writing malpractice to NOT show him battling who he was and squaring it with who he wants to become. As writing goes, nothing is truly a "must" and it's not all that rigid. However, I can tell you I sure would've been more entertained watching Granolah come to grips with who he is/wants to be rather than 8 pointless chapters of fighting a nothing character like Gas, where nothing fucking happened.
Also @OLKv3 & kemuri07 since you guys are basically saying the same thing.

He has struggled with his revenge this whole arc. He knew he was wrong when Monaito warned him about the Dragon Balls, but he couldn't pass up the opportunity. He knew Goku and Vegeta weren't really bad guys early on, but he couldn't put aside his prejudice. He knew he became the bad guy when he scared and endangered the Sugarian family, but he felt that there was no turning back. He knew he was wrong to cast aside Monaito and Oatmeel but felt he had no other choice. And he nearly got himself killed in the process. His knowledge of error was demonstrated by his facial expressions and words at the time, and the cause of these errors was his quest for revenge. All the pieces were in place, and when he nearly died, he was able to start again. Not to mention that he started making progress the moment Vegeta gave him a senzu. The "who he wants to be" part starts today; he is showing you.
TKA wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:17 pm A good example of Granolah is actually Vegeta in the Buu arc...Toriyama, if he was writing like Toyotaro...
That's great and all, but that's a different character with different motivations in a completely different story. You speak with certainty as if you know this presentation was Toyotaro's doing instead of Toriyama's...we don't know that. You seem to want more vulnerability and melodrama for Granolah, yet that might be even less likely under Toriyama.
kemuri07 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:57 pm This is lazy.
Calling this "lazy" is meaningless and inaccurate. Nothing about drawing 45 pages a month without a hiatus in years is lazy. It is a creative decision you don't agree with.
Alll of this is doing the work that the story “should be doing” you’re filling in the blanks that writing and character development should be doing.

Basically storytelling should employ “show don’t tell”. And there are many instances throughout this arc in which characters basically yell out their character motivations rather than the writing showing us this transition.

Having such revelatory transformation in which a character dead set on revenge to decide to walk away from the idea of vengeance, and to do so off screen and while he’s in a coma in which he hear’s Bardock is dramatically inert. The arc is taking narrative shortcuts to arrive at these plot points, but it never feels earned because the story doesn’t do the work to make any of it matter.

User avatar
batistabus
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: DBS:SH

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:20 am

kemuri07 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:32 am Alll of this is doing the work that the story “should be doing” you’re filling in the blanks that writing and character development should be doing.

Basically storytelling should employ “show don’t tell”. And there are many instances throughout this arc in which characters basically yell out their character motivations rather than the writing showing us this transition.

Having such revelatory transformation in which a character dead set on revenge to decide to walk away from the idea of vengeance, and to do so off screen and while he’s in a coma in which he hear’s Bardock is dramatically inert. The arc is taking narrative shortcuts to arrive at these plot points, but it never feels earned because the story doesn’t do the work to make any of it matter.
I'm just pointing out what's on the page. You say you want "show don't tell", but it seems you want Granolah to spell out exactly how he's feeling. It's not necessary at this point.

kemuri07
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:54 am

batistabus wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:20 am
kemuri07 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:32 am Alll of this is doing the work that the story “should be doing” you’re filling in the blanks that writing and character development should be doing.

Basically storytelling should employ “show don’t tell”. And there are many instances throughout this arc in which characters basically yell out their character motivations rather than the writing showing us this transition.

Having such revelatory transformation in which a character dead set on revenge to decide to walk away from the idea of vengeance, and to do so off screen and while he’s in a coma in which he hear’s Bardock is dramatically inert. The arc is taking narrative shortcuts to arrive at these plot points, but it never feels earned because the story doesn’t do the work to make any of it matter.
I'm just pointing out what's on the page. You say you want "show don't tell", but it seems you want Granolah to spell out exactly how he's feeling. It's not necessary at this point.
And that's the bare minimum. If what was on the page was compelling enough then most of us wouldn't be going on about how dull this arc is. And yes it absolutely is necessary to show the audience exactly how these changes happen. Not literally in the sense that characters blurt out their character development like what Granolah and what Goku ultimately does--"oh now I suddenly understand what it's like to be a saiyan--some how" --the audience should be able to feel emotionally these changes, that's what makes an emotional core of any story work. And you do so through storytelling, getting the audience through the headspace of its characters, so that when these things happen (Goku turning SSj, Trunks going back in time to defeat the androids, Vegeta's sacrifice against Buu) it has an emotional effect on the audience.

Granolah deciding to not seek vengeance falls flat because unlike the examples i provided, it doesn't do the work to make it mean anything. It's just an excuse so that we can have Granolah and Goku fight together. That's it.

User avatar
batistabus
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: DBS:SH

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:28 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:54 am snip
This conversation is going in circles. The events of this arc have done nothing but show Granolah that revenge can only bring ruin. We've seen him reel, cry, beg for death, etc. If you ever feel inclined to reread the arc, look at those moments I described above and see if you still feel his change came out of nowhere.

User avatar
Jack Bz
Regular
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:59 pm

I miss Magnificent Ponta's posts about the manga. Are they gone forever?

RIP come back I miss you

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:13 pm

batistabus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:54 pm >He almost dies and is comatose because his revenge nearly led him to ruin.
>On deaths door, he hears Bardock's story (which we see on screen and he tells us he heard). He reflects on that and on the events leading up to what he did. No need to show them again because they've already been presented in the story. If this were an anime, I'm sure we'd get plenty of reused animation flashbacks.
>He fights alongside his former enemies and shows mercy to his greatest adversaries. He has gone from villain to hero.
All of that is offscreen.

If he is comatose, that's a perfect chance to show him reflecting on it. There's a reason we tend to have characters reflect on their actions after they've gone through a traumatic event. Offscreening him for so many pages only for him to show up now and being all friendly with them is a substandard way of communicating this idea.

Again, this cannot be extricated from its context. Spend less time showing Gas throwing around ki in the shape of weapons and more time giving your supposedly main character some much needed pathos.
.All the pieces were in place, and when he nearly died, he was able to start again.
All the pieces for an interesting character study are there, I'll give you that. But Toyotaro fumbled putting them together. You're doing more work than he did.
That's great and all, but that's a different character with different motivations in a completely different story.
I said it was similar, not the same. Characters having a paradigm shift and then trying to figure out where they are now. That's the crux of the comparison I made. It is perfectly apt.
You speak with certainty as if you know this presentation was Toyotaro's doing instead of Toriyama's...we don't know that.
You're absolutely right. My bad. But if Toriyama wrote this, then this is the absolute worst he's written Dragonball since his return to the franchise with Battle of Gods. It's uncharacteristically poor storytelling from him if it is indeed him.
You seem to want more vulnerability and melodrama for Granolah
I don't need melodrama. I didn't need it with manga Jiren, who was a very good character. I didn't need it from DBS Broly, who is a very good character. I didn't need it from Manga Kale and Caulifla, who turned out to be good characters.

If the story is interesting and the characters work within the story, that's all you need. We didn't need chapters upon chapters explaining Jiren; we got very little and it still wound up being Toyotaro's (or Toriyama's) best character in that arc. We didn't need Broly explaining how much Paragus meant to him for us to feel bad for him when he saw Paragus' corpse. Etc.

The writing of this arc has been so slow, and so bloated and misguided that Granolah as a character feels so lost within it. And when this arc is over, much like Moro, I will forget Granolah happened. Except this time, when I try to remember what he looks like, I'll only picture Tapion.

---------------

I probably won't reply further. I said last month that I don't wanna be a drag for those who are enjoying this and I meant it.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4622
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:18 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:59 pm I miss Magnificent Ponta's posts about the manga. Are they gone forever?

RIP come back I miss you
Sadly, he didn’t log in since May 17th. He always had something worthwhile to say, it’s a shame. I hope it’s all good with him.

I just did a reread of the chapter and noted Goku’s perfect ultra instinct activated in response to his desire to protect again, like when Merus gave up his life. So, in his case, when his heart is not tranquil he can access ultra instinct full potential with this desire.

User avatar
ChronoTwigger
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:45 pm
Location: PizzaLand

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:50 am

I dunno how people cannot agree the whole story was so written:
-Ok, Bardack in. Let's find any excuse.-
-Someone meet him in the past?-
-Ok, but then?-
-I dunno, let's see how things going. In the meanwhile, Toyo, have them fight. Again and again. Fill the void.-
[LATER]
-WTF we're on an endless maze... How they can beat the "absolutely stronger +1" being... And time's running out.-
-Mumble... Granola repent.-
-WHY?! HOW?!-
-Who care, just do it. A... dream or kinda. Just speed up the ending. Anyway, I'll leave, I'm really out of this mess, next arc on your own Toyo-
-Oh no Sensei! I can only trace... ehr.. draw Vegeta fighting. I didn't do anything but fan art so far!-
-And again... someone care? *POOF*-
I learned english listening to songs. So I don't know anything about. The day you had to learn play piano by just listening .mp3, you'll understand.

User avatar
picc
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:26 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:20 pm

Imagine when this arc finally gets animated, and we have to deal with filler in a story that is already filler. 40+ episodes for one round of the many fights to finish.
Planet Namek Bred

jd55513
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 86 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:10 pm

I always find it odd that people still look at Dragon Ball, and it's narrative and character driven plot points from a "Western" point of view instead of the actual core audience, which is a "Eastern" point of view.
Philosophy is the key to really understanding a lot of fiction, shonen, cartoons etc. Many authors have a formal education and tend to use and play with philosophical concepts and elements of human nature using art. (Toriyama using his love of martial arts movies and Journey to the West, which is a big epic on Buddhism and Daoism.)

As you will hopefully see, the Western Tradition (i.e Socrates----Modern Philosophy) is usually concerned with aspects of reality and on what it means to be human or to interact with objects in the world and to some extent, find meaning in activities and pursuits. Especially when it comes to what lies above our reality and on notions of some creator.
The Eastern Tradition is NOT concerned with that necessarily, it is concerned with the flourishing of society and the improvement of the self.
Besides the obvious author statements that he based early Dragon Ball on Journey to the West. Gokus character is also based on Sun Wukong, as many of you may already know.
The character archetype of Goku, is a synthesis of Shintoism, Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism. In this case,
For Buddhism they believe in innate buddhahood for all sentient beings(which includes all evil doers like King Piccolo, Frieza, Cell, Kid Buu, Zamasu, and even Moro). Goku is like a "Bodhisattva" which, are enlightened beings who strive to get others to achieve enlightenment and awakening.

They believe in universal compassion. This is why Goku is written to be pure "kokoro" (heart) and empty minded. forgiving, as well as doing things like giving a senzu bean, or giving mercy to the most malicious beings in the universe.

Goku's character archetype is based on the central character in Journey to the West, Son Wukong. The story is about a tale of retrieving buddhist scrolls from India.
It's also apparent that Eastern Philosophy is there. Because historically, Buddhism spread from India to China and then Japan. As it spread to China. The Shaolin Monks incorporated Buddhism into their martial arts(Kung fu) as it spread to Japan, in influenced the way of the warrior, or Bushido. (Zen Buddhism)

In the East, specifically in terms of Buddhism, the primary struggle facing people is the cultivation of self and freeing themselves from the cycle of samsara. Those who selfishly pursue things will be forced to endlessly reincarnate and thus, continue to experience "dukka"(suffering) and "anatta"(impermance) until they let go of the five aggregates of Buddhism.

In Confucianism, You have a humanist centered philosophy, that espouses, the flourishing of society as being the best good. Anything deviating from this or the virtues of a enlightened individual in society leads to the imbalance and gives the impression of "Evil". that is Specifically to "way of the gentlemen" are benevolence (ren 仁), righteousness (yi 義), ritual propriety (li 禮), wisdom (zhi 智), and trustworthiness (xin 信).

However, in Shintoism, there is a struggle and balancing of kegare ("pollution" or "impurity"), while ensuring harae ("purity"). Which contradicts some Buddhist ideas of the non-self(atman)

I really think people need to understand that the Eastern Philosophy in Asian cultures is vastly different than in Western cultures.
In regards to Metaphysics and Ethics, it is night and day on concepts of Good and Evil.

For example, Evil in the East is not a "substance" in a monist point of view. It does not have matter associated with it.
There is no ultimate good or evil in Eastern philosophy. There is only relative good and evil. "All undertakings are beset with imperfections, as fire with smoke" (Gita 18.48).
In Daoism, you have the Cosmic Yin and Yang. Which is Dialectical monism, also known as dualistic monism. This is not to be confused with just monism(the idea that reality is built on things of a material substance, like atomism). This is a special case of ontology (study of being) where the forces represent themselves, as perceptions in the realm of the minds, not substantive nature. It's also merely an illusion like Buddhism.

In Daoism, they practice "wu wei" and forms of partaking in Dao(or Tao) there is human dao, natural dao and great dao.

In the West, from a theological point of view, St. Augustine viewed evil as a "privation of good" he didn't believe Evil was created since that would deconstruct the presumption that a God was perfect in the sense of omnipotent, all good, and omniscient.

Also in the West, people tend to believe in a concept in Theodicy called the "vale of soul making". This would be the explaination for the problem of evil. That is, the existence of evil as a phenomenological effect, that motivates and breeds self cultivation of behavior and harmonious virtues in mortals.

The reason I added the stuff about evil and Godhood, is that people always struggle with coming to terms of why don't Whis or the Kaioshins or the other Gods, actually intervene. This is a struggle that parallels actual history in theology and is across cultures.


Now back to the current discussion. The reason giving up revenge is a narratively sound and consistent and is a nice bow on the character of Granolah is due to the fact that Monaito warned Granolah of the troubles and conflict that using Dragon Balls would usher. New foes and nothing but suffering and pain would occur because Granolah is trapped by his past and his identity of being some savior or having to carry a burden of bringing justice to the Cerealieans.
Granolah sought the use of Dragon Balls for selfish reasons which is a big no for Buddhist beliefs, as it puts you further in a illusion.
As Monaito explained, the Dragon Balls are to be used for selfless reasons, generally as a reward to brave warriors.
We know that almost everyone who has made selfish wishes receives negative karma as a result of using them.
Granolah recieved his punishment by nearly dieing and going blind in the face of other more powerful enemies, as Monaito foreshadowed, and at the cost of being surpassed by the Saiyan and Gas, with a little lifespan.

Hearing the voice of Bardock in his comatose state, gave him time to reflect on the Saiyans and the choices he made up to that point.
Seeing that Bardock save his life, and that Goku and Vegeta are fighting for his safety probably broke through the anger and hatred he had in himself. He probably pities Gas too, as he represents another "Granolah" who gave up everything to fall short.

Granolah has matured, just like Vegeta when it comes to past mistakes and guilt/hatred.

Post Reply