Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

So Toyotaro is gonna take a break, huh? Is that a common thing? First time I heard it was with Eiichiro Oda, and it was for the last saga (which will take years to finish...).

Funny enouhh, Yusuke Murata, artist of One-Punch Man is also taking a month break after releasing the last chapter of the Monster Association/Garou Arc yesterday. What a coincidence they both finish in the same week and now both are taking a break.
But yeah I haven't really heard much about that either.
I think Toriyama back in his heyday was only on extended breaks between series? And then there would be the occasional vacations during serialization, which meant he wouldn't work for a week here and there.

I'm just gonna say, the panel of Freeza killing Gas and the fact the speed lines are used as some kind of mask, implying Freeza turns into his Black form for a moment in order to get the kill, is pretty clever.

Agreed and no doubt that was a blink and you'll miss it look at his new form.

[Grimlock]

I know Oda took a break once when he was hospitalized for sleep deprivation and overworking.

Yeah, urgent stuff must require breaks. But deliberate breaks? That's a first.

He really puts everything he's got into One Piece.

As should all artists into their projects.

With this new Freeza development, I don't think they're going to jump ahead in the timeline for awhile, at least not in the manga.

Well, hopefully you are wrong. There are a lot of stuff they "set up" and take forever before delving into them. Let anything related to Freeza be one of those. Enough of Freeza (can we please move on from Freeza?). There are many more interesting things to happen first.

But yeah I haven't really heard much about that either.
I think Toriyama back in his heyday was only on extended breaks between series? And then there would be the occasional vacations during serialization, which meant he wouldn't work for a week here and there.

It's good that he had occasional vacations. As I think his case was more demanding than Toyotaro's. And for over ten years, occasional vacations during serialization is more than necessary.

[Extreme_kai]

I'd just like to point out there was already another planet with its own rosat in the Moro arc, so it's not an entirely left-field concept. It's where Goku and Merus train.

That's not the issue, the issue is they did not show him finding the rosat, so it came out of the left field. Up until then, we had no ideas If Frieza knew what a rosat room was. Now that he knows what that room does, what is stopping him from training 20,40,50 years in the room and going Diamond Frieza off-screen? Many people have theorized Frieza's race has long lifespans possibly 1000s of years, so maybe training 100 years in a limitless rosat room would not be out of the question. This offscreen room training just made the power scaling even worse, It's (4 months of traing+mental training in hell) Golden Frieza and MVP 17(I fight monsters and poachers on an island) on steroids. I know, I need to stop ranting about the same thing, but it's just painfully bad writing even for super.

[Xeogran]

(can we please move on from Freeza?)

He's the arch-vlilain of DBS, so slim chances. We just witnessed him taking priority over new villains and easily disposing of them. Even during Moro arc, his lack of presence had to be explained by Toyotaro in a special.

I honestly think the last DBS arc (if there will be one that is ) will be related to him.

[Jack Bz]

I'd just like to point out there was already another planet with its own rosat in the Moro arc, so it's not an entirely left-field concept. It's where Goku and Merus train.

That's not the issue, the issue is they did not show him finding the rosat, so it came out of the left field. Up until then, we had no ideas If Frieza knew what a rosat room was. Now that he knows what that room does, what is stopping him from training 20,40,50 years in the room and going Diamond Frieza off-screen? Many people have theorized Frieza's race has long lifespans possibly 1000s of years, so maybe training 100 years in a limitless rosat room would not be out of the question. This offscreen room training just made the power scaling even worse, It's (4 months of traing+mental training in hell) Golden Frieza and MVP 17(I fight monsters and poachers on an island) on steroids. I know, I need to stop ranting about the same thing, but it's just painfully bad writing even for super.

I'm not defending the writing or the use of the room, I said in my post before this that this arc has been solidified as the worst in the manga for me.

My only point was that I've seen more than a few people say "oh, so now other planets just have a rosat now?" as if that wasn't an already established thing

[UpFromTheSkies]

Well, hopefully you are wrong. There are a lot of stuff they "set up" and take forever before delving into them. Let anything related to Freeza be one of those. Enough of Freeza (can we please move on from Freeza?). There are many more interesting things to happen first.

I'd love for them to do something with Uub, but the way things currently are it doesn't look like that will happen soon. Maybe they will keep the movies in the future, and keep the manga where it is, so we'll get both? Or even better, they could do a second series, but they'd be stretching Toyo too thin at that point.

[Xeogran]

It is a bit of a shame that Elec was annihilated like that, though perhaps it was the point: he was just a useless poser who amounted to nothing.

I doubt so. Elec was built up as a mastermind and not as an idiot. We should have had hints that his planning was bad, but we never got any until this last chapter where we just suddenly learn he's stupid and sucks and dies.

Gas was the brawn, Elec was meant to be the brain. His plan to ask Zuno, get the Dragon Balls, not getting close to the Gas vs Goku fight at first (until he just did anyway). It was all meant to tell us he has a strategy beyond just relying on Gas, but nope.

[nineko]

By the way, I think that Freeza didn't kill Goku and Vegeta because he is not stupid, he is aware that at least four sets of Dragon Balls exist, not to mention that Whis can technically revive them (if Beerus asks him to), or they can trade their lives with the Kaioshins since that precedent has been set too. Killing Goku and Vegeta is basically pointless at this time, he needs to find some greater option if he still wants to target the Saiyans, unless he changed his goals, wasn't he interested into overturning the order of the gods?

[FortuneSSJ]

Freeza was great. The arc has been revolving around his character and now he finally appeared.
Love how Toyotaro drew Gas' death. First time we have a character's lifespan running out during the battle until only his skeleton remains.

This is why I don't like the usual Dragon Ball formula: Introduce a new villain - kill him in the same arc. Like other mangas do, let some villains survive so they can be used later like they did here.

Some people may be tired of Freeza, but he's one of my favourite characters of the old cast since anime ToP. Now that there are other strong characters around he was to play his cards right to not get killed and it's interesting to see him in that situation.

Goku looking to the scouter and his reflex being Bardock was cool. Monaito improving his healing abitlities in the end too. It gives the message despite you being old you can still improve if you work hard.

Not sure if Granolah will still die in 3 years or they will use the DBs to undone it?


Overall I liked the arc, but didn't like:

- The Heeters were wasted. Only Gas was a proper fighter. Elec seemed to be smarter in the beginning of the arc and I expected more from him. The fact that Gas was just a pawn to him was disappointing. It would be cool to have villains that actually care about each other like the Phantom Troupe in HunterxHunter. Maki and Oil didn't do much either... I was hoping there would be a fifth one like the Bojack crew and it would be revealed Elec was just the second in command.

- For the first time in the franchise they introduced a new Dragon Ball set without cooldown and where only 2 DBs are needed to make the wish. And they refused to elaborate further... Goku/Vegeta didn't even find about those differences. Top tier writing <3

- I know we're talking about a franchise that names characters after food and other stuff, but I can't deny my disappointment when we keep getting stuff like Golden Freeza, Orange Piccolo, Black Freeza...I think there's a limit to everything and we have gone past that for some time.

[ssj3kakarot]

I wonder how Frieza managed to find the Room of Spirit and Time. So there are other ways to get in, other than Kami's Lookout? Will they tell us later, or are they just throwing this bit of information at us and dropping it forever? Well, it was clever, at least, that Frieza being in the RoSaT meant that he wasn't counted as one of the beings in the universe when Granola and Gas made their wishes. Not sure that would have mattered anyway, since he'd still be growing more powerful while in there. He'd have passed them up anyway.

Oh well. Is there any official colorized version of Black Frieza? I'd like to see that. If we're going by the logic that Golden Frieza was meant to be a mockery of Super Saiyan, maybe Black Frieza is based on Ultra Instinct. Although if Frieza has a say in its appearance (which is unclear), silver would have made more sense, since that form was the strongest Frieza had last seen Goku.

I absolutely loved the walking corpse that was Gas in the end. The way his body falls apart as the fight goes on, bones breaking, skin falling off, there's no way the anime would be that graphic. Makes me wonder how they'd handle this if/when they adapt this arc. It would probably be heavily censored.

Granola still only has a few years left to live, but he seems with that. Really surprised Monaito survived until the end. I was sure he was going to make a noble sacrifice, taking his overpowered Dragon Balls off the table. Instead, he gets super healing after a few minutes of practice, and Whis shows up out of nowhere to save him from death. Weird, but okay. It sounds like he's going to just deactivate the Dragon Balls after using them once more to restore the planet. Don't know why they felt the need to keep him alive. Is he even going to serve a purpose after this? Are himself and Granola going to appear again? Kinda doubt it, so why not give the character a satisfying ending?

What happened to that robot guy? The one Granola was hired to retrieve. Did...everybody just forget about him? What information did he have that Elec needed? I guess it doesn't really matter now that Elec is dead.

I dunno. Mixed feelings all around. I enjoyed it, but it also feels off at times.

Frieza didn't gain access to Kami's Room of Spirit and Time. He found one of similar properites on a different planet.

[ZeroNeonix]

I wonder how Frieza managed to find the Room of Spirit and Time. So there are other ways to get in, other than Kami's Lookout? Will they tell us later, or are they just throwing this bit of information at us and dropping it forever? Well, it was clever, at least, that Frieza being in the RoSaT meant that he wasn't counted as one of the beings in the universe when Granola and Gas made their wishes. Not sure that would have mattered anyway, since he'd still be growing more powerful while in there. He'd have passed them up anyway.

Oh well. Is there any official colorized version of Black Frieza? I'd like to see that. If we're going by the logic that Golden Frieza was meant to be a mockery of Super Saiyan, maybe Black Frieza is based on Ultra Instinct. Although if Frieza has a say in its appearance (which is unclear), silver would have made more sense, since that form was the strongest Frieza had last seen Goku.

I absolutely loved the walking corpse that was Gas in the end. The way his body falls apart as the fight goes on, bones breaking, skin falling off, there's no way the anime would be that graphic. Makes me wonder how they'd handle this if/when they adapt this arc. It would probably be heavily censored.

Granola still only has a few years left to live, but he seems with that. Really surprised Monaito survived until the end. I was sure he was going to make a noble sacrifice, taking his overpowered Dragon Balls off the table. Instead, he gets super healing after a few minutes of practice, and Whis shows up out of nowhere to save him from death. Weird, but okay. It sounds like he's going to just deactivate the Dragon Balls after using them once more to restore the planet. Don't know why they felt the need to keep him alive. Is he even going to serve a purpose after this? Are himself and Granola going to appear again? Kinda doubt it, so why not give the character a satisfying ending?

What happened to that robot guy? The one Granola was hired to retrieve. Did...everybody just forget about him? What information did he have that Elec needed? I guess it doesn't really matter now that Elec is dead.

I dunno. Mixed feelings all around. I enjoyed it, but it also feels off at times.

Frieza didn't gain access to Kami's Room of Spirit and Time. He found one of similar properites on a different planet.

Yeah, I used to think the RoSaT was unique to Earth, but I guess not. Makes me wonder how common they are. Are they all connected? If people entered from two different planets, could it be used for fast travel?

[OLKv3]

Freeza sure brings in the activity

[Zephyr]

Nice to finally see Freeza again. Also nice to see him acting more like a rival than an outright villain, as he should be after Resurrection F and the Tournament of Power saw him beginning down the path of a martial artist. Just about the only interesting or worthwhile thing in this entire arc.

I wonder if Kuriza's already been born, or if that's something we won't see before the epilogue.

Super Hero spoilers:

Spoiler:

The manga's given Vegeta and Freeza new forms, and Super Hero's given Piccolo and Gohan new forms. Would be cool if all four of them show up at the next Tournament of Power.

[JulieYBM]

Nice to finally see Freeza again. Also nice to see him acting more like a rival than an outright villain, as he should be after Resurrection F and the Tournament of Power saw him beginning down the path of a martial artist. Just about the only interesting or worthwhile thing in this entire arc.

I wonder if Kuriza's already been born, or if that's something we won't see before the epilogue.

Super Hero spoilers:

Spoiler:

The manga's given Vegeta and Freeza new forms, and Super Hero's given Piccolo and Gohan new forms. Would be cool if all four of them show up at the next Tournament of Power.

Spoiler:

If they do another Tournament of Power I would hope for at least one nice curveball story arc before it to really make sure that the Tournament of Power feels like it's not just more of the same from the previous arc. Nevertheless, I agree with you!

[Xeno Goku Black]

The arc as a whole was alright. It wasn't particularly that interesting and it dragged too much.

Too much the same, just waaaay too much fighting. They need to cut that down severely because it loses its impact after a while.

I probably would say it was the worst arc of the manga, not counting the Beerus one which was glossed over.

[Dragmobot12]

What kind of villain would you guys want to see next?

[Zephyr]

Spoiler:

If they do another Tournament of Power I would hope for at least one nice curveball story arc before it to really make sure that the Tournament of Power feels like it's not just more of the same from the previous arc. Nevertheless, I agree with you!

Spoiler:

If the plan is for DB to continue practically indefinitely (or at least for the foreseeable future) then I think there's definitely going to be another large-scale tournament of some kind. I wouldn't really mind another arc before that happens.

I could almost see the Tournament of Power becoming (or inspiring) something of a reoccurring event (though without the apocalyptic stakes), like a multiversal equivalent to the Tenkaichi Budokai. A place for rivals to periodically meet in the ring, where character interactions and developments can occur within the context of matches and rematches, all while entertaining Zen-chan!

With these four new powerups, and Broli, Universe 7's roster is already looking quite different from last time. If I had things my way, I'd not have the next one until after the epilogue, so Goku could bring Oob along with him as part of his training (or as the final test of his training), echoing Kame Sennin bringing Goku along to the Tenkaichi Budokai back in the day.

[JulieYBM]

Spoiler:

If they do another Tournament of Power I would hope for at least one nice curveball story arc before it to really make sure that the Tournament of Power feels like it's not just more of the same from the previous arc. Nevertheless, I agree with you!

Spoiler:

If the plan is for DB to continue practically indefinitely (or at least for the foreseeable future) then I think there's definitely going to be another large-scale tournament of some kind. I wouldn't really mind another arc before that happens.

I could almost see the Tournament of Power becoming (or inspiring) something of a reoccurring event (though without the apocalyptic stakes), like a multiversal equivalent to the Tenkaichi Budokai. A place for rivals to periodically meet in the ring, where character interactions and developments can occur within the context of matches and rematches, all while entertaining Zen-chan!

With these four new powerups, and Broli, Universe 7's roster is already looking quite different from last time. If I had things my way, I'd not have the next one until after the epilogue, so Goku could bring Oob along with him as part of his training (or as the final test of his training), echoing Kame Sennin bringing Goku along to the Tenkaichi Budokai back in the day.

Spoiler:

I agree. I think the next Tournament of Power should focus on the character aspect and have those be invested in, like a sports manga or anime. That will allow for more varied expression of story and character interactions without the looming threat of doom. It will also make it easier for a non-Gokuu character to win, which is what I want. I'd be way more in someone like Caulifla winning in that regard. It also makes it easier to not worry about having to develop Gokuu too much. In a lot of ways that would create something of a "Alan at the Kalos League" situation where if Gokuu (Satoshi) can't win then the story can simply be used as a Trojan Horse to develop someone else.

[GTx10]

Well that was something... Here is my question. What form is Goku using? Is it UI Sign?
Because Goku was at full power and yet his body didn't dodge Freeza's attack. After the TOP and the MORO arc Goku should not be getting blindsided anymore, by anyone. This arc really messed up UI too but at least they used the excuse that as Goku's strength wanes so does his UI. I could buy that, but he was full power here, what the hell happened?

[Thani]

Well that was something... Here is my question. What form is Goku using? Is it UI Sign?
Because Goku was at full power and yet his body didn't dodge Freeza's attack. After the TOP and the MORO arc Goku should not be getting blindsided anymore, by anyone. This arc really messed up UI too but at least they used the excuse that as Goku's strength wanes so does his UI. I could buy that, but he was full power here, what the hell happened?

It was "True Ultra Instinct", essentially Goku's own way of using UI that it's supposedly better than the Perfected Ultra Instinct.

And to your second question... it's good ol' power creep showing it's face again. Freeza was just too strong for Goku to react, even with UI. Gas himself was doing it left and right, too.