Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:14 pm

Well, I’m relieved that the Granolah arc is finally over. It and the Moro arcs felt like they dragged on forever. On the other hand, I can’t say I’m crazy about the idea of Freeza getting another new form and presumably serving as the main antagonist of another arc. This DBS era in general has been trying way too hard to turn Freeza into Goku’s archenemy.

If nothing else, I sincerely hope this next arc will mark the end of the DBS manga. I think DBS in general has overstayed its welcome.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:46 pm

I have a strong feeling Freeza isnt the main threat in this next arc. He, Piccolo and Gohan got new forms almost out of nowhere, just to so they can be comparable to Goku and Vegeta and help out in a decent way in this next arc. Just a hunch.

Honestly this latest jump in power for Freeza isnt as bad as his Golden Power up since at least he had to train for a decade straight in a weird dimension to catch up to/marginally surpass them. Goku, Vegeta and Freeza were comparable to each other in the Tournament of Power which wasnt that long ago (in storyline) then the saiyans quickly eclipsed him with getting stronger as SSBs then tapping in to higher power with UI and UE. So Freeza needing 10 years to match what Goku and Vegeta did in 2-3 doesnt make me as mad in hindsight especially since I dont think we're getting a Freeza War arc coming up next which was my initial thoughts.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:00 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:46 pmHe, Piccolo and Gohan got new forms almost out of nowhere, just to so they can be comparable to Goku and Vegeta and help out in a decent way in this next arc. Just a hunch.
Well Frieza now is like twice above them, though :lol:
One shotting their strongest forms is a WILD feat.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:53 pm

It’s not all that impressive considering that both Granolah and Gas have had Goku and Vegeta on the ropes pretty much through the entire fight.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:56 pm

To be fair, they were pretty much on their last legs too. Freeza NOT one-shotting them would be weirder, imo, no matter the power gap.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:30 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:56 pm To be fair, they were pretty much on their last legs too. Freeza NOT one-shotting them would be weirder, imo, no matter the power gap.
But the 3 of them were fully healed by Monaito, no?

I saw 3 different videos from 3 different people saying this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:44 pm

YamiGoku wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:56 pm To be fair, they were pretty much on their last legs too. Freeza NOT one-shotting them would be weirder, imo, no matter the power gap.
But the 3 of them were fully healed by Monaito, no?

I saw 3 different videos from 3 different people saying this.
After which, they were bruised by Gas

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:47 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:14 pm Well, I’m relieved that the Granolah arc is finally over. It and the Moro arcs felt like they dragged on forever. On the other hand, I can’t say I’m crazy about the idea of Freeza getting another new form and presumably serving as the main antagonist of another arc. This DBS era in general has been trying way too hard to turn Freeza into Goku’s archenemy.

If nothing else, I sincerely hope this next arc will mark the end of the DBS manga. I think DBS in general has overstayed its welcome.
Fortunately, you're not in charge of publishing DBS, because a random guy like me would be sorry that there's nothing left to put on the shelf and all that would be left would be to read from scratch.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:51 pm

Well, I can't lie, this whole development has piqued my interest. It's all very sudden and illogical and late in the game, but this is the kind of balls-out left swerve the arc desperately needed more of.

One aspect of this arc that's both a key strength and weakness is the intimate stakes and small active cast. At first, I was happy that the arc was keeping things tight as it gave every character a chance to breathe. But we all know how the pacing turned out and the arc devolved into Goku, Vegeta, Granolah and Bardock all fighting Gas in various configurations until it grew beyond stale. Worse, they had Elec, a character most people were invested in, sitting on the sidelines this whole time and he barely interacted with anyone until the end, by which point his epic plans predictably didn't amount to much.

Having another character get involved, any other character, is welcome at this point. Might as well be Freeza, right? At the very least, his appearance has been constantly foreshadowed and he always brings the hype. Since they seemed to be deliberately withholding him, keeping him as an offscreen spectre like Blofeld in his first few Bond movie appearances, I assumed this arc was gonna end one of two ways: either they have a gag scene where Freeza's sipping champagne in his ship completely oblivious to everything that's happened on Cereal, or he genuinely has something big in store. If this does all lead directly to the next arc, that will be quite refreshing since all the previous ones have been too rigidly separated.

As for Freeza's apparent power boost, I'm actually glad that they're tying up that whole plot line of him having an insane amount of potential. Toyotaro did the same thing at the very start of the arc when he had Beerus reveal his involvement in the Saiyans' destruction to Vegeta, which was first set up in 2013. The whole "trained for four months" thing was purely done to make you think, "damn, how strong could Freeza be if he REALLY tried?" The answer seems to be here at last.

All that said, it's fair to say that having Freeza pop up and kill everyone at the literal last second after an extremely long and boring slog of an arc isn't the most competent writing. Like, at all. Toyotaro seems to be flinging shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. While I am momentarily interested, I'm not at all optimistic about the next arc because I see no reason why it will be better than this. I feel like the whole direction of Dragon Ball has been an unfocused clusterfuck ever since Toriyama's original napkin notes for Super apparently ran out. We're in post-script territory now, the goddamn wild west.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:02 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:51 pm Well, I can't lie, this whole development has piqued my interest. It's all very sudden and illogical and late in the game, but this is the kind of balls-out left swerve the arc desperately needed more of.

One aspect of this arc that's both a key strength and weakness is the intimate stakes and small active cast. At first, I was happy that the arc was keeping things tight as it gave every character a chance to breathe. But we all know how the pacing turned out and the arc devolved into Goku, Vegeta, Granolah and Bardock all fighting Gas in various configurations until it grew beyond stale. Worse, they had Elec, a character most people were invested in, sitting on the sidelines this whole time and he barely interacted with anyone until the end, by which point his epic plans predictably didn't amount to much.

Having another character get involved, any other character, is welcome at this point. Might as well be Freeza, right? At the very least, his appearance has been constantly foreshadowed and he always brings the hype. Since they seemed to be deliberately withholding him, keeping him as an offscreen spectre like Blofeld in his first few Bond movie appearances, I assumed this arc was gonna end one of two ways: either they have a gag scene where Freeza's sipping champagne in his ship completely oblivious to everything that's happened on Cereal, or he genuinely has something big in store. If this does all lead directly to the next arc, that will be quite refreshing since all the previous ones have been too rigidly separated.

As for Freeza's apparent power boost, I'm actually glad that they're tying up that whole plot line of him having an insane amount of potential. Toyotaro did the same thing at the very start of the arc when he had Beerus reveal his involvement in the Saiyans' destruction to Vegeta, which was first set up in 2013. The whole "trained for four months" thing was purely done to make you think, "damn, how strong could Freeza be if he REALLY tried?" The answer seems to be here at last.

All that said, it's fair to say that having Freeza pop up and kill everyone at the literal last second after an extremely long and boring slog of an arc isn't the most competent writing. Like, at all. Toyotaro seems to be flinging shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. While I am momentarily interested, I'm not at all optimistic about the next arc because I see no reason why it will be better than this. I feel like the whole direction of Dragon Ball has been an unfocused clusterfuck ever since Toriyama's original napkin notes for Super apparently ran out. We're in post-script territory now, the goddamn wild west.
The script for this saga had been in the works since the finale of the Moro saga, Toyotaro said twice that Toriyama had composed the plot for the saga, and as of late October the Granola saga was already written. I send you to Toyotaro's statements from January and August 2021.

To say that Frizer appeared out of the blue is a lie, because he is mentioned in 11 chapters, in 79 Eleck said he had an urgent matter which turned out to be Frizer's summons to the planet Cereal. The whole first thread was based on Granolah looking for Frizer's whereabouts so no, nothing is out of nowhere.

The Heeters' whole plan was to kill the Saiyans and Granolah then summon Frizer to Cereal so that Gas could kill him and take over Frizer's army as he said from the beginning of the saga. With that being said, Eleck hoped that it would all go downhill after the wish but Goku's cunning led Eleck's entire plan to ruin

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:09 pm

I like that between the original release of Super Hero and it’s Western release, this chapter has cleared up a minor plot-hole from that movie. Namely why is Broly hiding from Freeza?

Now we know. He’s terrified of the power of Freeza’s new N word privileges.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:13 pm

Kataphrut wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:09 pm I like that between the original release of Super Hero and it’s Western release, this chapter has cleared up a minor plot-hole from that movie. Namely why is Broly hiding from Freeza?

Now we know. He’s terrified of the power of Freeza’s new N word privileges.
Are we sure that was the intention? Broly was already shown hiding from Freeza at the end of his debut movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:38 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:13 pm
Kataphrut wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:09 pm I like that between the original release of Super Hero and it’s Western release, this chapter has cleared up a minor plot-hole from that movie. Namely why is Broly hiding from Freeza?

Now we know. He’s terrified of the power of Freeza’s new N word privileges.
Are we sure that was the intention? Broly was already shown hiding from Freeza at the end of his debut movie.
Yeah he’d rather avoid a scrap but he could beat up Freeza if he seriously wanted to.

Don’t think that’s the case any more.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:51 pm

Alkiser wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:02 pm The script for this saga had been in the works since the finale of the Moro saga, Toyotaro said twice that Toriyama had composed the plot for the saga, and as of late October the Granola saga was already written. I send you to Toyotaro's statements from January and August 2021.
Yes, what I'm saying is that neither the Granolah and Moro arcs were part of Toriyama's original plan for Super when the anime and manga first started, as far as we can tell. Toyotaro had much more of a hand in the development of these arcs than the ones with Hit, Zamasu and Jiren.
To say that Frizer appeared out of the blue is a lie, because he is mentioned in 11 chapters, in 79 Eleck said he had an urgent matter which turned out to be Frizer's summons to the planet Cereal. The whole first thread was based on Granolah looking for Frizer's whereabouts so no, nothing is out of nowhere.
One of my main points was that Freeza was frequently foreshadowed. Or were you making a separate point? :eh: Most people were expecting Freeza to have some role earlier in the arc but, understandably, few expected him to appear at the very last minute then disappear just as quickly.
The Heeters' whole plan was to kill the Saiyans and Granolah then summon Frizer to Cereal so that Gas could kill him and take over Frizer's army as he said from the beginning of the saga. With that being said, Eleck hoped that it would all go downhill after the wish but Goku's cunning led Eleck's entire plan to ruin
Gas was the real spanner in the works here. He had several opportunities to kill the Saiyans and Granolah, but continued toying with his prey long after Elec ordered him to just finish the job.

After so much was built up about Elec's intel and knowledge based approach, I can understand the disappointment that his plan really did boil down to a simple brute-force approach of just killing everyone who stood in his way. Red herrings like the 10 questions to Zuno led people to believe Elec had another 9000 IQ play hidden up his sleeve.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:16 am


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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:25 am

And...we're done. We're finally fucking done.

And I'm gonna say it: I actually thought this was a good chapter. Like I said when I mentioned it after the plot leaks, I really like how Frieza just comes out of nowhere to DOMINATE, and the finish product does not disappoint. This is probably the most ferocious Frieza has been in decades. Brutally dismantling Gas that was brutal even by old school DBZ standards, and just stunting on Elec, Goku, and Vegeta was a treat. This is the version of Frieza: He is not a rival, he is not comic relief--mother fucker is a monster and he relishes in that. This is how he should be represented.

And yeah the fight choreography is aces. Loved the deranged GAS looking like a horror monster as he becomes entirely consumed by vengence and no longer cares about his personal safety.

Now in regards to the entire arc, my thoughts remain the same--what a fucking mess. I blame Bardock. The need to input him into this arc for no reason other than fanservice destroyed this arc's pacing. This is Granolah's arc and it got robbed from him just to sell some more books. And that sucks because I genuinely like Granolah, and it sucks that he got his potential robbed from him.

I will say this, this chapter got me at least interested to see what's next, but it' going to have to do a lot to make up for what an absolute cluster fuck this arc was.

5.5 out of 10.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nineko » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:28 am

I'll post my thoughts later, for now I'm just going to document the typo in the last page, in which Goku says "talking" twice, so we have a record of it in case it gets fixed later:
Image

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:29 am

Frieza's enter was golden (actually Black :twisted: ), but Elec was terribly wasted as the one brain-mastermind villain we could have. Doubt there will be any other opportunity. RIP, gone without amounting to literally anything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:33 am

Xeogran wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:29 am Frieza's enter was golden (actually Black :twisted: ), but Elec was terribly wasted as the one brain-mastermind villain we could have. Doubt there will be any other opportunity. RIP, gone without amounting to literally anything.
I think that was kind of the point. He was smug, egotistical, jerk wad who had no care for any of the people who are with him. And the fact that Frieza casually reveals that not only was he an idiot, but he's actually the weakest of the heeters before blowing him away--i really enjoyed that.

Basically his whole character is that he amounted to nothing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:34 am

Did Freeza just get character development? The old Freeza would have wasted no time killing Goku and Vegeta if he had the chance, but he let them go. And he smiled, I'm pretty sure that's never happened; a smug smirk, yes, but never a smile. He pretty much saved the day, it didn't look like Goku and Vegeta could have finished Gas, so Freeza could have just left them to destroy each other. Interesting.

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