Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I’m actually really digging this chapter the more I think about it. I think it’s super cathartic that Freeza comes out of nowhere and just utterly destroys Gas. He’s been the most boring foe in all of Super, so to have Freeza reduce him to bones and then crushing his skull was satisfying.

I share your sentiment. There are some things that I’m still salty about, but overall I was looking forward to see Freeza and, man, the dude is bossy.

[Dragmobot12]

Imagine the next chapter?

"There is an ancient demon from the underworld who goes around the multiverse butchering the gods."

[Totamo]

The TOP ARC sucked
Then the Moro arc was Good until it sucked
Then the Granola arc was good until it sucked

you guys still have hopes for this manga?

I'm going to keep reading/checking it because I'm a DB fan, but I'm done waiting for it to be good or taking it seriously.

I dont know whos fault is, if is a team problem, Toyotaro or Toriyama, and I'm not going to insult them or questioning their hard work, but I dont understand how the japanese dont complain about the current state of this manga, or stop buying it or something, because they are only going to listening to them, but I guess they think is not that bad or something? I'm saying this because I saw the japanese getting mad and complaining in Dokkan or other franchises, and that almost always forces a change, but the sales are still good I think? so I'm not anticipating any improvements.

That's been a very weird pattern to me and it kinda goes back to ROF. How come they know how to start something popularly loved but finish it controversially?

[jjbgood]

In this Arc we have flashbacks to Bardock, Goku learning about his family, Vegeta having a unique transformation wich equals ultra instinct, new information about the namekians, a new set of dragonballs and a new dragon, goku mastering UI (again), and so much more stuff and... it feels like filler. Everthing here should be a highlight, but everything is just... meh. this arc dragged so long and was so boring, that it feels like i read a 2 years filler arc. Nothing was accomplished. And in an arc with things like a new transformation for vegeta und more backstory to Gokus family, with him finally aknowledging them, this is a very bad endresult.

[Helios518]

Big oof in the Freeza reveal. Modern Dragon Ball seems to now be suffering immensely in quality. With RoF - ToP, some of the issues seemed relatively minor in that it a small rewrite could've fixed the issues but ever since Broly, the insistence on "Beerus's power >> Goku's newest form", "Staying in U7", "Random new transformation", and "This takes place before EoZ" is so painfully obvious it's terrible.

I almost think the only net positive in this arc is the Granolah and Cerealians but they're hugely setback because they could only exist by introducing new DBs and the "I want to be the strongest" wish which makes it seem like Dragon Ball is just satirizing themselves.

[Jmass97]

Big oof in the Freeza reveal. Modern Dragon Ball seems to now be suffering immensely in quality. With RoF - ToP, some of the issues seemed relatively minor in that it a small rewrite could've fixed the issues but ever since Broly, the insistence on "Beerus's power >> Goku's newest form", "Staying in U7", "Random new transformation", and "This takes place before EoZ" is so painfully obvious it's terrible.

I almost think the only net positive in this arc is the Granolah and Cerealians but they're hugely setback because they could only exist by introducing new DBs and the "I want to be the strongest" wish which makes it seem like Dragon Ball is just satirizing themselves.

I agree mostly with your post however, I do disagree somewhat against the whole “random transformation complaint that so many harp on. Tbh the only transformations we got that were “random” and not really built up were ssj blue, golden frieza, blue evolved, ssj rose, piccolos potential unleashed states and ssj rage if we’re including the anime. Ssj God doesn’t count because it was what kicked off modern DB in the first place so there was no room for build up. Black Frieza was hinted at by Vegeta in the Broly movie and even stated it was why he continues to train (outside of surpassing Kakarot of course). Ultra instinct has been talked about ever since the start of ROF. Ultra Ego was hinted at since the beginning of the granolah arc and even if you want to argue that a transformation wasn’t needed, I’m 100% aware and certain of how many people wanted to see a “God Of Destruction” Vegeta and we got just that. And although Rose, Blue and Blue Evolved were random they at least had decent enough explanations behind the form.

[MajinVegetaPD]

The amount of pedantic and cruel words people have to share about an artist/writer whose job is the impossible task of living up to a cultural phenomenon is heartbreaking.

I'm not even mad about Toyotaro, it's whoever forces DBS to be stuck in the limbo before EoZ that's at fault. It's probably Dragon Room's doing since that period can just be prolonged forever.

Just do a timeskip so things can unfold naturally, jeez. I dunno what are they so scared of. Even Super Hero is still before that.

I wouldn't hold out hope of EoZ being cannon anymore.

[Cipher]

but they're hugely setback because they could only exist by introducing new DBs and the "I want to be the strongest" wish which makes it seem like Dragon Ball is just satirizing themselves.

How well did wishing to be the strongest work out for anyone in this arc?

[Draconic]

but they're hugely setback because they could only exist by introducing new DBs and the "I want to be the strongest" wish which makes it seem like Dragon Ball is just satirizing themselves.

How well did wishing to be the strongest work out for anyone in this arc?

Mostly well... I'm not sure what you're asking?

Granolah was undefeated, except by Gas, who made the wish after him. He reconsidered his revenge after hearing Bardock's message, or else he probably could have taken on the Saiyans.

Gas was basically undefeated, even though he fought everybody non-stop. Of course, it took his life to do it, but if it weren't for Freeza, Elec's plan would have probably worked. Gas might've died against the Saiyans, but there were always the other Dragon Balls to repeat the process.

Like, the wish had basically no drawbacks. It's entirely coincidence that things worked out this way and the antagonists had the lamest plans of what to do with said power. The fact anyone cared about Bardock and his "resolve", to the point it basically drove the entire climax, even though it was a big fart, is the only thing that lead to the events playing out how they did, but the wish was solid.

[Xeogran]

You'd think Elec would try finding for the Dragon Balls again knowing there is no cooldown and having the Radar on his disposal.
You'd think he would come up with some fail-safe in case things go wrong.

In what point of this arc could we see his glorious 1080p 420 IQ brain? All he did was powerup his brother and mentally torment him.

What a waste...

[Dragmobot12]

It seems to me that the only purpose of this arc was to give Toriyama's Bardock more depth, perhaps Tori felt that this Bardock was an empty character compared to the special version.
Looking at this arc again, it gives the impression of comfort, like a trip into the past. A small but still interesting story, I have nothing more to say.

[Cipher]

but they're hugely setback because they could only exist by introducing new DBs and the "I want to be the strongest" wish which makes it seem like Dragon Ball is just satirizing themselves.

How well did wishing to be the strongest work out for anyone in this arc?

Mostly well... I'm not sure what you're asking?

Granolah was undefeated, except by Gas, who made the wish after him. He reconsidered his revenge after hearing Bardock's message, or else he probably could have taken on the Saiyans.

Gas was basically undefeated, even though he fought everybody non-stop. Of course, it took his life to do it, but if it weren't for Freeza, Elec's plan would have probably worked. Gas might've died against the Saiyans, but there were always the other Dragon Balls to repeat the process.

Like, the wish had basically no drawbacks. It's entirely coincidence that things worked out this way and the antagonists had the lamest plans of what to do with said power. The fact anyone cared about Bardock and his "resolve", to the point it basically drove the entire climax, even though it was a big fart, is the only thing that lead to the events playing out how they did, but the wish was solid.

Both Gas and Granolah wound up surpassed by others and/or dead within the day of the arc’s main events, outdone by others who hadn’t made the wishes. Freeza just trained.

Granolah wouldn’t have lasted agains the Goku and Vegeta combination Gas fought.

[Helios518]

How well did wishing to be the strongest work out for anyone in this arc?

Mostly well... I'm not sure what you're asking?

Granolah was undefeated, except by Gas, who made the wish after him. He reconsidered his revenge after hearing Bardock's message, or else he probably could have taken on the Saiyans.

Gas was basically undefeated, even though he fought everybody non-stop. Of course, it took his life to do it, but if it weren't for Freeza, Elec's plan would have probably worked. Gas might've died against the Saiyans, but there were always the other Dragon Balls to repeat the process.

Like, the wish had basically no drawbacks. It's entirely coincidence that things worked out this way and the antagonists had the lamest plans of what to do with said power. The fact anyone cared about Bardock and his "resolve", to the point it basically drove the entire climax, even though it was a big fart, is the only thing that lead to the events playing out how they did, but the wish was solid.

Both Gas and Granolah wound up surpassed by others and/or dead within the day of the arc’s main events, outdone by others who hadn’t made the wishes. Freeza just trained.

Granolah wouldn’t have lasted agains the Goku and Vegeta combination Gas fought.

The antagonists essentially having to lose really doesn't change the absurdity of the wish. That being said, Freeza also isn't much better either. He found a RoSaT on a planet he conquered but for some reason didn't use it for RoF.

[Helios518]

Big oof in the Freeza reveal. Modern Dragon Ball seems to now be suffering immensely in quality. With RoF - ToP, some of the issues seemed relatively minor in that it a small rewrite could've fixed the issues but ever since Broly, the insistence on "Beerus's power >> Goku's newest form", "Staying in U7", "Random new transformation", and "This takes place before EoZ" is so painfully obvious it's terrible.

I almost think the only net positive in this arc is the Granolah and Cerealians but they're hugely setback because they could only exist by introducing new DBs and the "I want to be the strongest" wish which makes it seem like Dragon Ball is just satirizing themselves.

I agree mostly with your post however, I do disagree somewhat against the whole “random transformation complaint that so many harp on. Tbh the only transformations we got that were “random” and not really built up were ssj blue, golden frieza, blue evolved, ssj rose, piccolos potential unleashed states and ssj rage if we’re including the anime. Ssj God doesn’t count because it was what kicked off modern DB in the first place so there was no room for build up. Black Frieza was hinted at by Vegeta in the Broly movie and even stated it was why he continues to train (outside of surpassing Kakarot of course). Ultra instinct has been talked about ever since the start of ROF. Ultra Ego was hinted at since the beginning of the granolah arc and even if you want to argue that a transformation wasn’t needed, I’m 100% aware and certain of how many people wanted to see a “God Of Destruction” Vegeta and we got just that. And although Rose, Blue and Blue Evolved were random they at least had decent enough explanations behind the form.

I mean it tells you a lot when you say "only" but then list 6+ transformations lol. To add on to the Black Freeza part, it may have been hinted at either but I don't feel a whole new form was needed. Like it's would've been completely fine if Golden Freeza did 10 year RoSaT (ignoring how dumb he found that) and got this strong. Also, I haven't watched the movie (though I got spoiled a lot) but what about Gohan Beast? IIRC Gohan's Ultimate state was supposed to be a replacement for transformations because it was essentially his base form with most of his latent power. So is Gohan Beast explained well in the movie (or even supplementary material)?

[kemuri07]

Huh. I'm kinda shocked that this arc does the thing that I suggested it was going to do a year ago, which is to set up Frieza as the main antagonist. And honestly, its the smart move. It allows Frieza to go back to being what he used to be, and not just another rival of Goku's or comedic relief. And I like that Elec was set up to be this master planner only to basically get his shit called out by Frieza, and dealt with easily. I like that. What I don't like is how it got there, and the Granolah arc is so long and so sloppy. There is no reason why this should have taken just over a year to do what is essentially a table-setting arc. And yeah the Bardock stuff, all of it, is terrible. It needlessly prolong the plot and ultimately did not change anything.

[Extreme_kai]

Huh. I'm kinda shocked that this arc does the thing that I suggested it was going to do a year ago, which is to set up Frieza as the main antagonist. And honestly, its the smart move. It allows Frieza to go back to being what he used to be, and not just another rival of Goku's or comedic relief. And I like that Elec was set up to be this master planner only to basically get his shit called out by Frieza, and dealt with easily. I like that. What I don't like is how it got there, and the Granolah arc is so long and so sloppy. There is no reason why this should have taken just over a year to do what is essentially a table-setting arc. And yeah the Bardock stuff, all of it, is terrible. It needlessly prolong the plot and ultimately did not change anything.

That's what I've been waiting for too, I wanted to see Frieza step up to be the main antagonist for years, but they dragged it on for so long that I no longer cared. I know a lot of people think that I should be happy with this as a Frieza fan, but I feel like they completely wasted my time with his cameo. For all we know, Frieza could be gone from the manga for another 4 years before he shows up again as Diamond Frieza. Makes me wonder now how many transformations Beerus had to go through to get as strong as he did because DB can't show other ways to display powerups besides transformations and fusions. How about instead of wasting our time with worthless villains that in the end amounted to nothing, showing us what Frieza was doing to get stronger? For me, It's a no-brainer Frieza would have been trying to improve, it's just the execution. I would've forgave the new form if they just gave us 2 panels showing him stumbling upon the room, maybe a few panels of training during this arc. I forgave Golden Frieza's writing for being bad, but they essentially did it again, and I don't care if it was the equivalent of 10 years and not 4 months, they still fumbled the ball with "show not tell". Overall, I'm glad people over here are more critical of this chapter because in other places (Reddit, youtube, Twitter) I am finding people praising this awful writing. This is not a win for Dragon balls supers story.

[goku the krump dancer]

This arc was fighting an uphill battle with boulders tide to its ankles from the start because its core premise was the already exhausted "Revenge against the saiyans" Plot point. And in true DBSuper fashion it introduced some interesting ideas with none of it really coming together properly.

[kemuri07]

Huh. I'm kinda shocked that this arc does the thing that I suggested it was going to do a year ago, which is to set up Frieza as the main antagonist. And honestly, its the smart move. It allows Frieza to go back to being what he used to be, and not just another rival of Goku's or comedic relief. And I like that Elec was set up to be this master planner only to basically get his shit called out by Frieza, and dealt with easily. I like that. What I don't like is how it got there, and the Granolah arc is so long and so sloppy. There is no reason why this should have taken just over a year to do what is essentially a table-setting arc. And yeah the Bardock stuff, all of it, is terrible. It needlessly prolong the plot and ultimately did not change anything.

That's what I've been waiting for too, I wanted to see Frieza step up to be the main antagonist for years, but they dragged it on for so long that I no longer cared. I know a lot of people think that I should be happy with this as a Frieza fan, but I feel like they completely wasted my time with his cameo. For all we know, Frieza could be gone from the manga for another 4 years before he shows up again as Diamond Frieza. Makes me wonder now how many transformations Beerus had to go through to get as strong as he did because DB can't show other ways to display powerups besides transformations and fusions. How about instead of wasting our time with worthless villains that in the end amounted to nothing, showing us what Frieza was doing to get stronger? For me, It's a no-brainer Frieza would have been trying to improve, it's just the execution. I would've forgave the new form if they just gave us 2 panels showing him stumbling upon the room, maybe a few panels of training during this arc. I forgave Golden Frieza's writing for being bad, but they essentially did it again, and I don't care if it was the equivalent of 10 years and not 4 months, they still fumbled the ball with "show not tell". Overall, I'm glad people over here are more critical of this chapter because in other places (Reddit, youtube, Twitter) I am finding people praising this awful writing. This is not a win for Dragon balls supers story.

I actually don't agree with that. I think Frieza appearing out of nowhere is pretty perfect. It creates the idea that the world is ever changing even when Goku and Vegeta aren't the focus, and its a pretty neat cliffhanger. I like the idea of a Frieza no longer willing to sit on his laurels or dependent on schemes to attain power, but is now willing to be an active fighter. And that is a version of Frieza that has a potential to be even more terrifying and ruthless.

[Extreme_kai]

Huh. I'm kinda shocked that this arc does the thing that I suggested it was going to do a year ago, which is to set up Frieza as the main antagonist. And honestly, its the smart move. It allows Frieza to go back to being what he used to be, and not just another rival of Goku's or comedic relief. And I like that Elec was set up to be this master planner only to basically get his shit called out by Frieza, and dealt with easily. I like that. What I don't like is how it got there, and the Granolah arc is so long and so sloppy. There is no reason why this should have taken just over a year to do what is essentially a table-setting arc. And yeah the Bardock stuff, all of it, is terrible. It needlessly prolong the plot and ultimately did not change anything.

That's what I've been waiting for too, I wanted to see Frieza step up to be the main antagonist for years, but they dragged it on for so long that I no longer cared. I know a lot of people think that I should be happy with this as a Frieza fan, but I feel like they completely wasted my time with his cameo. For all we know, Frieza could be gone from the manga for another 4 years before he shows up again as Diamond Frieza. Makes me wonder now how many transformations Beerus had to go through to get as strong as he did because DB can't show other ways to display powerups besides transformations and fusions. How about instead of wasting our time with worthless villains that in the end amounted to nothing, showing us what Frieza was doing to get stronger? For me, It's a no-brainer Frieza would have been trying to improve, it's just the execution. I would've forgave the new form if they just gave us 2 panels showing him stumbling upon the room, maybe a few panels of training during this arc. I forgave Golden Frieza's writing for being bad, but they essentially did it again, and I don't care if it was the equivalent of 10 years and not 4 months, they still fumbled the ball with "show not tell". Overall, I'm glad people over here are more critical of this chapter because in other places (Reddit, youtube, Twitter) I am finding people praising this awful writing. This is not a win for Dragon balls supers story.

I actually don't agree with that. I think Frieza appearing out of nowhere is pretty perfect. It creates the idea that the world is ever changing even when Goku and Vegeta aren't the focus, and its a pretty neat cliffhanger. I like the idea of a Frieza no longer willing to sit on his laurels or dependent on schemes to attain power, but is now willing to be an active fighter. And that is a version of Frieza that has a potential to be even more terrifying and ruthless.

I disagree entirely, doing that makes it feel like an arsepull and unearned. We have never seen Frieza actually put any work into what he's gained, it is only inferred retrospectively, this is telling and not showing. At least with Goku and Vegeta, we see them put in work to improve, it feels like Freeza gets everything for free. Might as well have Frieza go back into that room every month now and become angel-level every time he feels the power creep. It's bad writing and no better than wishing to get stronger from a viewer/reader standpoint. Also, I was ok with Frieza stepping back and realizing he might need help instead of doing everything on his own, that's what the end of DBS super Broly was implying. He saw Gogeta Blue, and realized he need a strong ally as well, but it seems they just forgot about that. If you're going to have a recurring villain, you need to show us what's going on in the background. If you just have villains randomly popping up stronger with no explanation until it happens, it's bad writing. Seriously, what is stopping Frieza from going back into that room and training for 25 years off-screen? I don't know how people could be excited for an inferior version of the Frieza arc, where Frieza is top dog just cause.

[kemuri07]

That's what I've been waiting for too, I wanted to see Frieza step up to be the main antagonist for years, but they dragged it on for so long that I no longer cared. I know a lot of people think that I should be happy with this as a Frieza fan, but I feel like they completely wasted my time with his cameo. For all we know, Frieza could be gone from the manga for another 4 years before he shows up again as Diamond Frieza. Makes me wonder now how many transformations Beerus had to go through to get as strong as he did because DB can't show other ways to display powerups besides transformations and fusions. How about instead of wasting our time with worthless villains that in the end amounted to nothing, showing us what Frieza was doing to get stronger? For me, It's a no-brainer Frieza would have been trying to improve, it's just the execution. I would've forgave the new form if they just gave us 2 panels showing him stumbling upon the room, maybe a few panels of training during this arc. I forgave Golden Frieza's writing for being bad, but they essentially did it again, and I don't care if it was the equivalent of 10 years and not 4 months, they still fumbled the ball with "show not tell". Overall, I'm glad people over here are more critical of this chapter because in other places (Reddit, youtube, Twitter) I am finding people praising this awful writing. This is not a win for Dragon balls supers story.

I actually don't agree with that. I think Frieza appearing out of nowhere is pretty perfect. It creates the idea that the world is ever changing even when Goku and Vegeta aren't the focus, and its a pretty neat cliffhanger. I like the idea of a Frieza no longer willing to sit on his laurels or dependent on schemes to attain power, but is now willing to be an active fighter. And that is a version of Frieza that has a potential to be even more terrifying and ruthless.

I disagree entirely, doing that makes it feel like an arsepull and unearned. We have never seen Frieza actually put any work into what he's gained, it is only inferred retrospectively, this is telling and not showing. At least with Goku and Vegeta, we see them put in work to improve, it feels like Freeza gets everything for free. Might as well have Frieza go back into that room every month now and become angel-level every time he feels the power creep. It's bad writing and no better than wishing to get stronger from a viewer/reader standpoint. Also, I was ok with Frieza stepping back and realizing he might need help instead of doing everything on his own, that's what the end of DBS super Broly was implying. He saw Gogeta Blue, and realized he need a strong ally as well, but it seems they just forgot about that. If you're going to have a recurring villain, you need to show us what's going on in the background. If you just have villains randomly popping up stronger with no explanation until it happens, it's bad writing. Seriously, what is stopping Frieza from going back into that room and training for 25 years off-screen? I don't know how people could be excited for an inferior version of the Frieza arc, where Frieza is top dog just cause.

But I don't like that aspect of Frieza because it definitely dismisses him as a villain, and more as a comedic entity. Don't get me wrong, I did find it funny in Broly, but it can't work in a full arc. You need Frieza to become a terrifying presence again if he's going to show up as a major antagonist.

I also don't really agree that you constantly need to show what every character is doing. 1. It's a waste of time. and 2. like I said, it implies that the world is always constantly shifting and changing, even when we're not seeing it. I don't necessarily need a panel showing Frieza fighting because, well, he's not the hero. It's one thing if this was Goku, a character that I am supposed to have an emotional connection with. then yes, I'd agree that it seem unearned. But this is Frieza we're talking about. Who is not an anti-hero, not a good guy, but a bad guy, whose sole purpose is to serve as an obstacle for the good guys to defeat.

I'd argue that what would stop Frieza from using the room again is that he'd experience 25 years in real time. I imagine that is the implied thing that keeps people from going in an out of stuff like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.