Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:01 am

FlpShimizu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:55 am The amount of pedantic and cruel words people have to share about an artist/writer whose job is the impossible task of living up to a cultural phenomenon is heartbreaking.
I'm not even mad about Toyotaro, it's whoever forces DBS to be stuck in the limbo before EoZ that's at fault. It's probably Dragon Room's doing since that period can just be prolonged forever.

Just do a timeskip so things can unfold naturally, jeez. I dunno what are they so scared of. Even Super Hero is still before that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:03 am

I can't believe the middle aged man who sleeps four-to-six hours a day and works the other 18-20 makes bad writing decisions.

Anyway, it's Uchida's job to have a perspective on the overall flow of the series to keep his creators on track. Uchida isn't doing that well.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:06 am

So... this ending to the arc is literally the equivalent of "rocks fall, everyone dies"? And on top of that Freeza get another new form? Despite there being no indication that he needed to get stronger? And it's another recolour transformation?

Yeah... fuck this arc.

I can't help but feel how abrupt this conclusion is that someone is Shueisha literally told Toyotaro to end this arc literally right now so that Super would have new material ready for when the hype(?) for the SuperHero movie dies down. Because I can't believe for a second that Toyotaro would have planned for the ending of the arc to be the equivalent of dropping a bridge of everyone. There was no set-up at all for Freeza to enter stage right and murder nearly everyone. There was no thematic and/or narrative build-up for this kind of storytelling choice and it doesn't pay off anything in the arc either. This is HORRIBLE level storytelling. It renders the arc completely meaningless.

If Toyotaro was forced to end the arc like this because of the powers that be, I feel so sorry for him. But if Toyotaro was told well in advance when he had to end the arc and still choose the tell the story he did for months on end and end the arc in this fashion... goddamn... what the hell was thinking this would be the best ending?

I think this is going to end up one of the worst arcs in all of Dragon Ball for me. Holy shit... what fucking terrible ending.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:07 am

So, from what we can tell from the summary, the ending is actually perfectly fine. It ties up all the major loose ends, answers many of the lingering questions, while still leaving some bits and pieces here and there that can be followed up later, if needed. Freeza being there is perfectly justified and makes sense.

The problem is not that it's a bad written ending. It's a perfectly well written / consistent ending, with surprises to boot, to a terrible arc. A bad story is a bad story, even if it's internally consistent.

Oh, well... Let's look forward to the next!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:09 am

FlpShimizu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:55 am The amount of pedantic and cruel words people have to share about an artist/writer whose job is the impossible task of living up to a cultural phenomenon is heartbreaking.

Maybe I'm old and slow, but I still fail to see why can't some folks put things into perspective and see that this franchise needs to go through a period of change if it wants to keep on going. Change is difficult and takes time, especially if we're passing the torch for a new generation.

Everyone is free to share their take, even if it's not a positive one. Just remember, life is hard and people deserve kindness.
Honestly, I feel like we should be glad that Toyotaro is in this right now, this man is getting better and better with time. He started off with a Dragon Ball fan fiction manga, but he doesn't have any original stories of his own, which is a big issue. As an artist myself, I would advise him to read more books to derive inspiration, it's always the right thing to do if you want to write incredible stories of your own.

One of the main problems I had with Moro's arc is that Moro was presented as an evil wizard/warlock, so being spoiled by other fiction on the subject, I was expecting more from him, something like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. It led me to believe that Toyo had never read any of those books.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:11 am

As bad as all this is I'm really interested in WHO exactly gave Freeza this private dimension to train in.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:15 am

Freeza gaining a new form is obviously a reaction to the ass-beating he got from Broli. Furthermore, I don't see the benefit of foreshadowing his appearance. The problem here is that Gas and Elec have anticlimactic ends and Gas especially doesn't feel like a character that ever had any agency. Furthermore, we don't have an idea of what exactly Freeza's next move is nor--more importantly--do we know what Freeza's immediate goal is, if it is not killing Gokuu and Vegeta.

This chapter needed to:

1. Establish a sense lf identity and agency for Gas.
2. Establish Elec's downfall as a matter of his arrogance coming back to bite him.
3. Establish an immediate goal for Freeza.

We need to get into Freeza's mind here. Do a Freeza POV arc, goodness!!!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nineko » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:19 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:26 amAfter giving Goku/Vegeta Red, Blue, Pink, White and Purple now they're making Frieza Black after having him become Gold and Piccolo Orange?
This could have been useful for video game designers 30 years ago, but I'm afraid we're long past the era of palette swaps.

I'm still semi-seriously waiting for a Super Saiyan Rainbow inspired by Hyper Sonic, by the way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:22 am

I would like Goku's next form to be a stable form of Kaio-Ken.

Btw, really miss King-Kai.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:35 am

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:15 am 1. Establish a sense lf identity and agency for Gas.
2. Establish Elec's downfall as a matter of his arrogance coming back to bite him.
3. Establish an immediate goal for Freeza.
All of this should have happened MONTHS ago. Not in the final chapter of the arc.

And as far as Freeza's new form is concerned... that absolutely needed some kind of foreshadowing. Especially if this is a transformation that allows him to be on level pegging with or somewhere very near the same realm of power as Goku and Vegeta. Because if that is the case, Freeza is now the greatest threat in the universe again. And that kind of shift in the status quo would be a lot better to digest if there was some foundation to it. Especially since DBS Broly or DBS SuperHero don't allude to the idea of Freeza wanting to become stronger. As bad as the explanation was in Ressurection F, at least Freeza wanting to become stronger and creating Golden Freeza had some meaningful context. Black Freeza doesn't really have that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:40 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:35 am
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:15 am 1. Establish a sense lf identity and agency for Gas.
2. Establish Elec's downfall as a matter of his arrogance coming back to bite him.
3. Establish an immediate goal for Freeza.
All of this should have happened MONTHS ago. Not in the final chapter of the arc.

And as far as Freeza's new form is concerned... that absolutely needed some kind of foreshadowing. Especially if this is a transformation that allows him to be on level pegging with or somewhere very near the same realm of power as Goku and Vegeta. Because if that is the case, Freeza is now the greatest threat in the universe again. And that kind of shift in the status quo would be a lot better to digest if there was some foundation to it. Especially since DBS Broly or DBS SuperHero don't allude to the idea of Freeza wanting to become stronger. As bad as the explanation was in Ressurection F, at least Freeza wanting to become stronger and creating Golden Freeza had some meaningful context. Black Freeza doesn't really have that.
Well, yeah, this arc also shouldn't have been twenty chapters, either.

Black Freeza seems to be a tie in to whatever plan Freeza said he had at the end of Dragon Ball Super: Broli.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:43 am

I don't mind Freeza getting a new form. It was even teased in the Broly film. But like... why Black Freeza? :lol:

Super Saiyan Blue. Rosé. Goku Black. Golden Freeza. Orange Piccolo. While I like a lot of these forms, the naming convention is getting a bit stale. It's legit a joke at this point.

Needless to say, I'm intrigued in whatever the next arc is to figure out what the fuck is going on. As abrupt and thrown together this final chapter seems to be, I need to know what's up with Freeza's new form and how exactly he got so strong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:44 am

Okay I'll agree with the points made that some comments are being too harsh on Toyotarou, most of them are mine so I'll apologise for that. It just baffles me how much of a nose dive the writing has taken after the Goku Black arc. The ToP can be excused because I think that arc was going to be terrible no matter how it was written, but Moro and now Granola has no such excuse. Both arcs started off well and the ideas were extremely interesting but goddamn if its not frustrating to see Toyo constantly repeat the same mistakes over and over when it comes down to telling a story. His pacing is all over the place, he constantly builds things up which end up being a nothing burger (Moro's wish, spirit fission, Elec's big brain plan), and fights which devolve into slogs.

I am really hopeful that with Toyotarou taking a month's break, he can actually work on these mistakes and plan the next arc to hopefully avoid these pit falls. He has a talent for drawing manga but man, after two mid af arcs in a row I am doubtful the next one is going to be better.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:47 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:43 am I don't mind Freeza getting a new form. It was even teased in the Broly film. But like... why Black Freeza? :lol:

Super Saiyan Blue. Rosé. Goku Black. Golden Freeza. Orange Piccolo. While I like a lot of these forms, the naming convention is getting a bit stale. It's legit a joke at this point.

Needless to say, I'm intrigued in whatever the next arc is to figure out what the fuck is going on. As abrupt and thrown together this final chapter seems to be, I need to know what's up with Freeza's new form and how exactly he got so strong.
The black one is basically Golden Frieza, just repainted, he hasn't even changed in size, lol. I'd rather they go back to making a new Frieza form in the same style as his 2nd and 3rd forms, with spikes and monstrous looks like Cooler's.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:02 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:43 amSuper Saiyan Blue. Rosé. Goku Black. Golden Freeza. Orange Piccolo. While I like a lot of these forms, the naming convention is getting a bit stale. It's legit a joke at this point.
I wouldn't even mind if this was all done as some form of a tongue-in-cheek joke. But it's all played straight so... :shifty:
goku the krump dancer wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:11 am As bad as all this is I'm really interested in WHO exactly gave Freeza this private dimension to train in.
Cooler.

I'm calling it now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:08 am

The crazy part is, I want to rage out but I cant. I just cant quite put my finger on why I don't like any of this, I mean we knew since the end of the Tournament of Power that there was gonna be some sort of final crusade against Freeza and it was even further cemented when he survived Broly but how we got here is just so... peculiar.

Crypt Keeper Gas looks cool tho.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:10 am

I'm already looking forward to accusations towards Toyotaro of misogyny to send Macki to work in the kitchen 🥱

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:12 am

It's going to be two months until the next chapter?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:15 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:12 am It's going to be two months until the next chapter?
Yes.

Break in September. Then the next arc begins in October.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 87 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:19 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:02 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:11 am As bad as all this is I'm really interested in WHO exactly gave Freeza this private dimension to train in.
Cooler.

I'm calling it now.
So I found an answer to my question and apparently
Good grief.
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