Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
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- ZeroNeonix
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Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Ever since seeing Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, there has been something had been bothering me a bit. The new transformations for Piccolo and Gohan didn't really have any explanations. Most transformations in Dragon Ball have some sort of explanation for what the forms are and why they exist. Super Saiyan is an evolved Saiyan form, and it's built up pretty early on in Z as this legendary form which appeared once every one thousand years. Then there are some aliens who just have the natural ability to change forms, like Zarbon and Frieza. Ultimate form is less of a transformation and more of the user unleashing their latent power. Super Saiyan God is a Saiyan with god ki, Blue is the Super Saiyan transformation of God. And so on.
However, we get virtually no context for Orange Piccolo or Gohan Beast. Yes, Piccolo had his latent power unleashed by the dragon. Yes, Gohan has always had this huge potential and ability to skyrocket his power when enraged. But those things really don't explain how they suddenly tapped into newly discovered transformations.
However, I remembered something recently. I believe there was one other strange transformation in the movie. If I recall correctly, Gohan was doing a report on insects, and he had discovered a species of ant that could turn golden, like a Super Saiyan. (At least, I hope I'm remembering correctly.) That got me thinking, "Hold on. Can every species transform?" Maybe different species have different thresholds to pass in order to unlock an evolved state of power, and the only thing making Super Saiyans special is that their threshold is relatively low by humanoid standards. An ant grows half a decimal point in power levels, it becomes golden ("super saiyant"). Frieza trains for a few months, he becomes Golden (which feels very different from his other transformations). Maybe what Piccolo and Gohan discovered are the Namekian and human equivalents of Super Saiyan. I know that Beast is supposed to be exclusive to Gohan, but perhaps the only reason for that is that no other human would never reach Gohan's level of power, in order to cross the threshold into Beast form.
Or maybe I'm thinking too hard about this, and Toriyama's only thought process was, "New colors! Woo! Shiny!" After all, it wouldn't be the first time we got new transformations in Super, without explanation. Super Saiyan Rage and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved in particular... Although I don't believe those were Toriyama's creations.
However, we get virtually no context for Orange Piccolo or Gohan Beast. Yes, Piccolo had his latent power unleashed by the dragon. Yes, Gohan has always had this huge potential and ability to skyrocket his power when enraged. But those things really don't explain how they suddenly tapped into newly discovered transformations.
However, I remembered something recently. I believe there was one other strange transformation in the movie. If I recall correctly, Gohan was doing a report on insects, and he had discovered a species of ant that could turn golden, like a Super Saiyan. (At least, I hope I'm remembering correctly.) That got me thinking, "Hold on. Can every species transform?" Maybe different species have different thresholds to pass in order to unlock an evolved state of power, and the only thing making Super Saiyans special is that their threshold is relatively low by humanoid standards. An ant grows half a decimal point in power levels, it becomes golden ("super saiyant"). Frieza trains for a few months, he becomes Golden (which feels very different from his other transformations). Maybe what Piccolo and Gohan discovered are the Namekian and human equivalents of Super Saiyan. I know that Beast is supposed to be exclusive to Gohan, but perhaps the only reason for that is that no other human would never reach Gohan's level of power, in order to cross the threshold into Beast form.
Or maybe I'm thinking too hard about this, and Toriyama's only thought process was, "New colors! Woo! Shiny!" After all, it wouldn't be the first time we got new transformations in Super, without explanation. Super Saiyan Rage and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved in particular... Although I don't believe those were Toriyama's creations.
Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Frieza chose the golden color. He said that himself. Probably to mock the Super Saiyan color.
And coming to the conclusion every species in Dragon Ball can transform, because of one insect that can change its color, is veeeery far stretched.
Some species can transform (mostly warriour races), but most dont.
There isnt even a debate.
And coming to the conclusion every species in Dragon Ball can transform, because of one insect that can change its color, is veeeery far stretched.
Some species can transform (mostly warriour races), but most dont.
There isnt even a debate.
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- ZeroNeonix
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Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Assuming Frieza could have chosen any color he wanted, it's still a transformation. He didn't just dye his body armor golden. He had to train in order to achieve it, unlike his previous forms. Additionally, unlike his other forms, the transformation doesn't result in a drastic change in his shape or size. It's more like a Super Saiyan form, changing colors and multiplying his power level.
An ant, of all things. The animal often used to compare to people considered weak or insignificant, was able to transform like a Super Saiyan. You don't think that's unusual?
Okay. Do you have a counter explanation, or are you just here to be dismissive? What are the Orange or Beast forms to you?
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Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Seeing Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast has made me come to the conclusion that the potential unleashed state itself has some sort of power beyond that which I personally like to call an "awakening." Basically, anyone who has acquired the potential unleashed state like Gohan and Piccolo have, could reach an "awakening" specifically tailored to their character and fighting style/ability. I think Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast are the same type of transformation essentially, just an awakening of one's true power and true self from the base potential unleashed state.
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Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
I thought about this too. Of course the broader question is how much story is left to tell that these new forms can have an impact on?
I know the question has been beaten into the ground, but we're almost at the end of Z in the timeline. Where does it go from here. Are these new transformations going to inform potential new eras in story telling or will they just be fun one-offs?
I have a feeling the beast form will remain exclusive to Gohan at the very least.
I know the question has been beaten into the ground, but we're almost at the end of Z in the timeline. Where does it go from here. Are these new transformations going to inform potential new eras in story telling or will they just be fun one-offs?
I have a feeling the beast form will remain exclusive to Gohan at the very least.
Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Orange Piccolo: Shenron even admitted he threw in a little extra when he unleashed Piccolo's potential. He literally gave him the new transformation. And does this mean Shenron could do this to anyone? Probably, but he won't. It's clear nepotism, but screw it Piccolo deserves literally something besides absorbing other members of his race to get stronger.
Gohan Blanco Beast (sigh): I don't know. At this point in the series, you can pretty much ignore what was said in previous material. Old Kai says Gohan's Potential Unlock is the strongest he'll ever be? Well we're in Super now. Gohan went beyond the limit, figured out how to access God Ki, and it warped the Potential Unlock to his newest form. At least, that's how I see it.
Gohan Blanco Beast (sigh): I don't know. At this point in the series, you can pretty much ignore what was said in previous material. Old Kai says Gohan's Potential Unlock is the strongest he'll ever be? Well we're in Super now. Gohan went beyond the limit, figured out how to access God Ki, and it warped the Potential Unlock to his newest form. At least, that's how I see it.
Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Yeah, thinking about it, something like Orange Piccolo seems much more in-line with what someone might have expected to see from a "Super Namekian".ZeroNeonix wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:13 amMaybe what Piccolo and Gohan discovered are the Namekian and human equivalents of Super Saiyan.
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Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Orange and Beast are just evolved forms of their Ultimate forms.
- ZeroNeonix
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Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
I do like the idea of the dragon twisting the parameters of the wishes. Showing favoritism to Piccolo, because he has Kami in him. When he told the Frieza Force Frieza would be returned in pieces if asked to be resurrected, I was like, "What? That was never a thing. That doesn't even make sense. If someone died after having a hole blown through them, would he restore them to life with a hole still in their chest, just to die again?" Maybe Shenron was like, "Screw you guys. I'll make things harder for you."FoolsGil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:26 pm Orange Piccolo: Shenron even admitted he threw in a little extra when he unleashed Piccolo's potential. He literally gave him the new transformation. And does this mean Shenron could do this to anyone? Probably, but he won't. It's clear nepotism, but screw it Piccolo deserves literally something besides absorbing other members of his race to get stronger.
Gohan Blanco Beast (sigh): I don't know. At this point in the series, you can pretty much ignore what was said in previous material. Old Kai says Gohan's Potential Unlock is the strongest he'll ever be? Well we're in Super now. Gohan went beyond the limit, figured out how to access God Ki, and it warped the Potential Unlock to his newest form. At least, that's how I see it.
Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Well, Old Kai also said that the Pothala Fusion would last forever yet they separated (this was later explained in Super), and even if he can unlock someone's potential, that person can still train, become stronger and surpass his hidden potential. That's how I see it.FoolsGil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:26 pm Orange Piccolo: Shenron even admitted he threw in a little extra when he unleashed Piccolo's potential. He literally gave him the new transformation. And does this mean Shenron could do this to anyone? Probably, but he won't. It's clear nepotism, but screw it Piccolo deserves literally something besides absorbing other members of his race to get stronger.
Gohan Blanco Beast (sigh): I don't know. At this point in the series, you can pretty much ignore what was said in previous material. Old Kai says Gohan's Potential Unlock is the strongest he'll ever be? Well we're in Super now. Gohan went beyond the limit, figured out how to access God Ki, and it warped the Potential Unlock to his newest form. At least, that's how I see it.
If say, Goku had his potential unlocked during the Buu arc instead of Gohan, surpassing SSJ3's power, he would still be able to reach SSJ God, which has a higher power.
Also, I don't think Beast Gohan has God Ki, at least he shouldn't. Piccolo is more likely to have it in Orange Piccolo since he's fused with Kami and it was a little extra given to him.
IMO, Beast Gohan has something more to it that still hasn't been explained, either the Kaioshin's awakening form (similar to how Ultra Instinct is related to angels and Ultra Ego to gods of destruction) or maybe it's heritage, given how Ox King isn't a normal human neither (he's lived for many generations and he's huge). Could be a combination of both too, the name 'Beast' implies something awoken inside Gohan, that's how Toriyama explained it.
Considering this though, would it be possible for other characters to unlock their own hidden potential/hidden forms? I can see Tien, Krillin and Yamcha getting new forms based on their background story and fighting style.
Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
I honestly have no clue.
Orange Piccolo seems to be the full power of Piccolo's full potential, well, kinda, more like the next step if we take Shenron's word that it gave him a bonus. He got less green-ish in his Ultimate form and went full orange in his new form. Maybe, the namekian version of whatever Gohan got. Only Piccolo had it handed to him by Shenron, and Gohan had to unlock it himself.
Regarding Gohan, it seems to be the effect of his usual rage boosts on top of his Ultimate form, only permanent and not something that lasts until he cools off, and probably much stronger than they used to be. I wouldn't say SS, although it is activated through rage, but it certainly, in practice works like it: a helluva boost while being Ultimate.
Orange Piccolo seems to be the full power of Piccolo's full potential, well, kinda, more like the next step if we take Shenron's word that it gave him a bonus. He got less green-ish in his Ultimate form and went full orange in his new form. Maybe, the namekian version of whatever Gohan got. Only Piccolo had it handed to him by Shenron, and Gohan had to unlock it himself.
Regarding Gohan, it seems to be the effect of his usual rage boosts on top of his Ultimate form, only permanent and not something that lasts until he cools off, and probably much stronger than they used to be. I wouldn't say SS, although it is activated through rage, but it certainly, in practice works like it: a helluva boost while being Ultimate.
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Re: Implications of Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
Interesting observation about the golden ants. I don't think it's necessarily a sign that everyone can transform, but it could be read as a piece of foreshadowing for Piccolo's transformation at least. Piccolo has often been lumped in with the rest of the "ants", but it turns out that he too has his own equivalent to Super Saiyan after all. There's an implication that Gohan has been studying Saiyans as part of his biological research job, since he explains Goten and Trunks' sudden growth spurts. I like to think this is setting up his eventual publication of his book that explains ki to the general population.
Anyway, about the new forms themselves. Idk about anyone else, but I'm fine with Toriyama's handwave explanation about Beast Gohan. Gohan has always had these ridiculous, unexplained power boosts and this is just another manifestation of the limit-breaking rage monster inside him. Details aren't needed. I have a pet theory that Gohan's original unlock of Super Saiyan 2 was something unique to him (and possibly Trunks in the manga). His later uses of it weren't driven by anger and don't physically or mentally change him as much, same goes for Goku and Vegeta, hence the in-universe meme that Super Saiyan 2 looks barely any different to Super Saiyan 1.
Anyway, about the new forms themselves. Idk about anyone else, but I'm fine with Toriyama's handwave explanation about Beast Gohan. Gohan has always had these ridiculous, unexplained power boosts and this is just another manifestation of the limit-breaking rage monster inside him. Details aren't needed. I have a pet theory that Gohan's original unlock of Super Saiyan 2 was something unique to him (and possibly Trunks in the manga). His later uses of it weren't driven by anger and don't physically or mentally change him as much, same goes for Goku and Vegeta, hence the in-universe meme that Super Saiyan 2 looks barely any different to Super Saiyan 1.