Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

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Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:47 pm

After reading the manga I have come to that conclusion... even toei and bandai handle female characters or female warriors better

18

defeated very quickly
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Caulifla (manga)

While in the anime, Caulifla had no problem sensing the ki... she showed herself to be a prodigious warrior realizing that the transformation into SSJ was not a simple trick... the one in the manga is quite clumsy not realizing that and is reduced to a talking punching bag
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Miza Iwaza Kikaza

The 3 criminals seem interesting but... they had nothing more than a horrible transformation and defeated in one hit
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Maki

She despite belonging to the side of the antagonists... she didn't really do anything... and now she is the slave of frieza
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I don't know if it's worth mentioning kale... she had no characterization... it was just a narrative resource to get rid of as many characters

But I don't know what others think... what is your opinion? :think:

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:00 pm

Yeah, I wish they and their editor would take better care when writing women. With the vast resources available to them as wealthy creators for a very wealthy and popular magazine and mixed-media franchised aimed at children one would think that they would be able to afford women to serve as consultants on how they write their female characters. I hope in the coming chapters of the Dragon Ball Super comic we see stark and heavy improvements in how these characters are written.
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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:24 pm

I mean...yeah. I was especially disappointed at how Maki was so underutilized (along with Oil, too), since I genuinely thought Toyo would actually do something substantial with her aside from comedic relief.

Android 18, Caulifla, and Kale (who I don't even like) did a LOT more and by virtue were written better in the anime's TOP saga (which is surprising since the anime also had the Yurin moment).
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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Geraldo » Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:33 pm

What about Berryblue whose position is nothing more than an attendant to King Cold and later to Frieza? That was the lamest ever writing of a female character. I hoped she'd be a scientist or a technological wiz, or that she'd have a mind reading and psychic powers to interrogate people with.

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:31 pm

I definitely hope to see female characters in a variety of different scenarios and characterizations. It's my hope that, should female characters exist in future Dragon Ball projects, that they receive a well-written storyline and character arc.

Interestingly, Black Clover just released the results of its sixth popularity poll in the latest issue. The most popular character of that series is Noelle, the main heroein of the series. Noelle had nearly 14,000 more votes than the second most popular character, the main character himself, Asta. I think it's a true testament to Black Clover that one can write a strong, appealing female character well. Noelle has consistently been the most fun character of the series without becoming a punching bag for weird misogynistic takes as well as having a character arc removed from her love interest, Asta. It's such a good step in the right direction for the sort of female character I, as a woman, am interested in seeing in art. Noelle and her popularity are such a powerful piece of evidence that points to the viability of a decent, exciting female character written by a man and published in a magazine aimed at kids and I really encourage both Tabata and JUMP to keep that up.

As Dragon Ball is wont to do with taking leads from modern comics it is my hope that Dragon Ball learns a lesson from not only how Noelle is presented in the story but also how popular a reaction she garners.
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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pm

Berryblue: Talking shit too frieza without being afraid of getting killed.

Android 18: Won against Vegeta and broke his arm.

Female angels: Stronger then most characters.

Cheelai: Standing up too Paragus, a guy that can kill her with no problem.

Bulma: Do i need to explain this one? One of the most famous female character in Shonen Jump.

And i guess we just gonna forget that Toriyama created the first and strongest female main character in Shonen Jump (Arale)?

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:37 pm

Geraldo wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:33 pm What about Berryblue whose position is nothing more than an attendant to King Cold and later to Frieza? That was the lamest ever writing of a female character. I hoped she'd be a scientist or a technological wiz, or that she'd have a mind reading and psychic powers to interrogate people with.
In the movie at least this cheelai
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pm Berryblue: Talking shit too frieza without being afraid of getting killed.

Android 18: Won against Vegeta and broke his arm.

Female angels: Stronger then most characters.

Cheelai: Standing up too Paragus, a guy that can kill her with no problem.

Bulma: Do i need to explain this one? One of the most famous female character in Shonen Jump.

And i guess we just gonna forget that Toriyama created the first and strongest female main character in Shonen Jump (Arale)?
being just "strong" is no merit... still no relevance in combat or story ...In the manga Vados and the others are just decoration

And although toriyama in earlier times managed to create bulma and 18...he had a completely different team helping him...he still created horrible characters like chichi...

anyway I mean more currently with toyotaro ....
I would still say that toriyama in collaboration with toei has done a better work

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:06 pm

Jiren The Alpha wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pm Berryblue: Talking shit too frieza without being afraid of getting killed.
Decent half-step. Now let's see beyond just that.
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pmAndroid 18: Won against Vegeta and broke his arm.
One fight thirty-one years ago.
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pmFemale angels: Stronger then most characters.
They have no personalities or place in the story. They are literally just there to sit on the sidelines and have no character arcs or growth and their involvement in any themes is entirely tangental.
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pmCheelai: Standing up too Paragus, a guy that can kill her with no problem.
That's one scene, in one movie, and isn't part of an arc for the character. It's a set-up scene at best, the sort of thing you write to give an idea of a character's vibe. Now do something with it.
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pmBulma: Do i need to explain this one? One of the most famous female character in Shonen Jump.
Blooma spends most of her time being a 'nag' that none of the characters respect, being preyed on by an old man, and being the butt of sexual humiliation jokes. She winds up disappearing for large swathes of the story or providing zero contributions to the plot and when she is there she is, again, written in the tone she was written in t he early chapters, where she was duping the lead male characters that boy readers were meant to self-insert as.
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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:18 pm

To be ever so slightly fair to Toriyama, I do think some of the shortcomings with a character like #18, or even Videl in the original manga, come down to his poor writing of most his supporting characters. The story of "Character Introduced, Geunine Challenge And Interesting Story, After Introduction Falls To The Wayside", describes most of DB's cast, I don't think the fallings of #18 and Videl are due to their gender, that's just kind of how he uses characters with a few exceptions.

Though yes Videl's writing post the original Dragon Ball, and most of ChiChi's writing, show off a very socially conservative view on women and gender roles, and if you want to argue that even Videl's fight in the budokai is essentially the story punishing her for a woman, I wouldn't entirely disagree.

Though for what it's worth, I actually really Akane in Dr. Slump and would say she's probably the best written character in it, not that that means a whole lot for a gag series but yeah.
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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:32 pm

Pretty much any new female character instantly attracts a huge fanbase so long as they're given something semi-substantial to do. The real shame is that few are allowed to do even that much.

This topic has got me thinking though... If I had to choose the more feminist author between Toriyama and Toyotaro, who would I pick? Can't believe I'm saying this, but probably Toriyama. While he has written some incredibly sexist stuff, the fact that he almost always creates at least one female protagonist in every story is a decent step, plus he does occasionally balance out the sexism with more nuanced portrayals. With Toyotaro, I'm genuinely struggling to think of the last time he gave a female character anything important to do outside of gags. I guess Kale knocking out most of the universes counts, but she was basically used as a plot device more than anything. Either way, that was years ago. In one interview where the topic of Macki came up, he said he only cares about making sure his women look cute/sexy, but otherwise doesn't seem to care about the complicated shit.

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:27 am

I've already made my point in the past about how I feel when it comes to Dragon Ball and their handling of female characters so I'll just repeat what I've said before:

Dragon Ball in general is pretty bad at writing female characters. Every major female character introduced in the main story either goes from martial artist to housewife (Chi Chi, #18 and Videl), is already a housewife (Mrs Brief) or is tacked with a sexist gimmick that undermines them as a martial artist (Ranfan).

The worst-written female character in all of Dragon Ball though has to be Gine. Primarily due to how there are several unfortunate implications to unpack in her scenario. She's the only female Saiyan character that Toriyama has ever directly created and personally written for and it really shows. I mean, for crying out loud, she quits fighting altogether to become a lunch lady. And just to make matters worse, it's heavily implied she embodied the "damsel in distress" trope even as a space pirate. I mean... jeez.

The only female character that is written with any kind of depth or consistency in all of Dragon Ball is Bulma, and even she ends up embracing several outdated stereotypes about women and is usually the butt of the joke when it comes to Dragon Ball's grosser and sexually charged "humour".

Have things gotten better for female characters in Dragon Ball since the 90s? Kind of. Kale and Caulifla were a step in the right direction, despite some creative misgivings such as giving Caulifla SSJ2 so anticlimactically and having Kale (initially) as a walking promotional tool for Broly. And Ribrianne -- despite being widely inconsistent in terms of power scaling -- provided enough charm and whimsy in a gag gimmick... until it was stretched out for far too long and became annoying to watch. But bad habits still creep in with Android #21 being nothing more than "waifu" bait. I think the best female character we've gotten out of modern Dragon Ball is Cheelai. She has a wide range of characterisation, good chemistry with everyone she interacts with, has her own agency and doesn't have to rely on brute force or strength to get her own way.

If you want to find the root of the problem as to why female characters are sometimes written the way they are Dragon Ball, you really have to look at how sexist a country like Japan is. I don't like making sweeping generalisations like that, but when you have stories like this, laws like this, and progressive movements like this, I think it fair to say that there are some very misogynistic mentalities that are very much deep baked into Japan's already very conservative society. And that conservative mentality is adopted by many people in Japan and can potentially bleed into the kind of work we see Japan whether it's in manga, anime or novels.

Hell, this comment Toriyama made a few years ago is packed with unfortunate implications:
"To all boys, adult [men] with the hearts of boys, and the perhaps-few-in-number women who understand the hearts of boys, by all means please see [the movie] and get fired up." - Source.

This kind of antiquated viewpoint is how characters like Gine are created in the way they are. And at worst, how misogynistic abominations like Lady Red (NSFW) are created.

And don't think for a second this is exclusive to Dragon Ball, because it's an industry-wide problem. It's how the concept of "Moe" was born; with the concept being based on the delusion subtext that women (usually specifically teenagers) exist solely to act defenceless and look cute for the purposes of fulfilling a pseudo-protector and sexual dominance fantasy for a man (usually teenage boy or young adult). That concept is not just INSANELY sexist, but also quite dehumanizing. And this kind of subtext has seen SO MUCH in anime and manga in the last 30 - 40 years, with it being especially prevalent in light novels. And the fact that the concept has morphed into a subculture that has become very profitable to use and exploit for mangaka, writers and animation studios tells you everything you need to know about how much of an accepted concept they think it is.

I know some people will say, "It's just art. There's no need to worry about it." But at the end of the day, manga and anime are a part of a medium that is considered works of art. And art is not just there for decoration. It's a part of the culture. It moulds significant parts of culture. And culture matters. Artists and writers can and should do, much better.

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:28 pm

The Moro and Granny arc seem to be the best stories to gauge Toyo's capacity of writing female characters, given that the previous arcs had many forks on the plate.

The Moro arc had only those three girls, and Roshi tried to rape them, then was grossed out when they fused into a giant fat chick.

The Granny arc had Maki doing absolutely nothing for 20 chapters. Some jokes here and there, hardly peanut gallery material, and not even relevant enough to get killed in the end. It applies to Oil, too, although he did fight Granny for more than three panels like Maki did.
Meslie was the other girl, she fulfilled her role just fine.

Toriyama with all of his flaws at least has female characters that aren't just background noise, well not at first.

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:51 pm

It's overly kind to the original 1984 comic to compare it to the 2015 comic when they're both ultimately piss-poor examples of how to write women and girls in your comic. That's ultimately just a circular, self-aggrandizing path to take.
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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:28 pm Meslie was the other girl, she fulfilled her role just fine.
I forgot the existence of this woman ... but nah ... honestly she is a kind of damsel in distress who was helped by bardock

I certainly think that 18 and bulma are fantastic characters... with which I don't know if the author had support from their editors or not but in any case they are good female characters... that I like...

Caulifla and kale, kefla seems Amazing to me... only in their anime version because they have development and good fights
with vados... in the anime at least she has a characterization... unlike characters like maki "she's not the joke" she makes champa the victim of the jokes

cheelai was important at least .... she is a good friend of broly

gine is honestly becoming a terrible character .... :sick:

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Wrigglything » Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:32 pm

Considering how those people tends to be pretty critical towards female led affairs or anything that has a less represented group of people, I have a feeling Shueisha, Toei, Bandai, Bird Studio and Co would only be more intimidated or unmotivated to create more interesting female characters. Considering how varied and inclusive media can be, it's a shame that mediums like anime continue to be overly skewed towards boys and men despite there being properties deliberately made more for girls and women.

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:08 am

Wrigglything wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:32 pm Considering how varied and inclusive media can be, it's a shame that mediums like anime continue to be overly skewed towards boys and men despite there being properties deliberately made more for girls and women.
Uh, well most anime fans online talk about to tend to be made for boys, Shoujo and Josei are demographics in the medium that are intended for young girls and women. In addition, a lot of Shounen manga is read by girls, who of course aren't the main target, but since the 90s there's definitely been a push to include things that appeal to them.
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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by super michael » Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:06 am

Chi Chi is written worse in Toei DBS anime version, all she does is nag, boss others around, act like a queen, makes others follow her rules, etc. When she doesn't get her way, she throws a tantrum and bring others to family matter.

She doesn't care what others wants to do, only her point of view is correct. Her view of training and martial arts is so screwed up.

DBS Anime Chi Chi lose every development from Cell Saga, Buu Saga, Yo Son Goku Ova and BoG.


The universe which has the 3 girls transform in the ToP acted like amateurs in the anime and like spoiled little brats, getting angry at C17 for using his brains. This is the anime version.

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:35 pm

super michael wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:06 am Chi Chi is written worse in Toei DBS anime version, all she does is nag, boss others around, act like a queen, makes others follow her rules, etc. When she doesn't get her way, she throws a tantrum and bring others to family matter.

She doesn't care what others wants to do, only her point of view is correct. Her view of training and martial arts is so screwed up.
this is describing all her character from the beginning ....
super michael wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:06 am DBS Anime Chi Chi lose every development from Cell Saga, Buu Saga, Yo Son Goku Ova and BoG.
Do not confuse development with staying on the sidelines ....

there are things that surpass her in her position and she only accept because she thought gohan would not fight with cell
very different situation... goku was dead and there were no strong enemies... gohan continued studying... and only taught goten simple things (chichi is much weaker)
later on she also thinks that gohan is dead... she has no choice but to let goten fight... in other circumstances she wouldn't

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by super michael » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:49 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:35 pm
super michael wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:06 am Chi Chi is written worse in Toei DBS anime version, all she does is nag, boss others around, act like a queen, makes others follow her rules, etc. When she doesn't get her way, she throws a tantrum and bring others to family matter.

She doesn't care what others wants to do, only her point of view is correct. Her view of training and martial arts is so screwed up.
this is describing all her character from the beginning ....
super michael wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:06 am DBS Anime Chi Chi lose every development from Cell Saga, Buu Saga, Yo Son Goku Ova and BoG.
Do not confuse development with staying on the sidelines ....

there are things that surpass her in her position and she only accept because she thought gohan would not fight with cell
very different situation... goku was dead and there were no strong enemies... gohan continued studying... and only taught goten simple things (chichi is much weaker)
later on she also thinks that gohan is dead... she has no choice but to let goten fight... in other circumstances she wouldn't
Saiyan Saga Chi Chi allowed Gohan to go to Namek.
Mecha Freeza Saga Chi Chi allowed Gohan to train with Goku and Piccolo for 3 year.
Cell Saga Chi Chi allowed Gohan to train in the ROSAT with Goku for 1 year, which is 1 day outside.
Buu Saga Chi Chi actually trained with Goten.
Buu Saga Chi Chi allowed Goten to spar and play fight with Trunks.
Buu Saga Chi Chi allowed Goten and Gohan to join the tournament, the only issue was Gohan skipping school to train, which was avoided due to Gohan saying there was money.
Buu Saga Chi Chi allowed Goten to train to save the earth.
Yo Son Goku Ova Chi Chi allowed Goten to battle the villains from space.
BoG Chi Chi allowed Goten to fight Beerus as Gotenks

DBS Chi Chi doesn't allow Goten to compete who picks the most vegetable, which is a friendly competition and training.
DBS Chi Chi doesn't allow Goten to spar with Goku his father.
DBS Chi Chi doesn't allow Goten to go to Whis planet to get stronger, even though Goten wants to get stronger.
DBS Chi Chi even tries to prevent Goku from training. Chi Chi even lies to get her way.
DBS Chi Chi acted like her decision on Pan override Gohan the actual father, even going as far as locking Gohan away from Pan.

DBS Chi Chi acts like a spoiled brat, who has to get everything her way. She won't compromise and she even demands others to do as she wants.

Remember this Present Chi Chi in DBS was aware that Future Goku and Future Goten died, yet she thinks training is bad.
She thinks just because there are no bad guy they shouldn't train at all, heck remember the Android Saga? The Z warriors in the future time line was unaware of the Android and they all died, DBS Chi Chi is aware of that.


Chi Chi never tried to stop Goku from training in DB/DBZ at all. DB/DBZ Chi Chi never resorted to lies, to prevent Goku from training.

So yes DBS Anime Chi Chi is awful, there is no getting around that. She gets a 0/10 not even 1.

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Re: Toriyama and Toyotaro are bad at writing female characters/female Warriors

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:35 pm

You know, I think there's a lot of bad faith in the post above. You can say Chichi is more tolerant in Z but there's some context behind that you can't just ignore. I mean, Chichi never said in Super something like "I care more about my son's education than Earth's future", that's from Z.

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