Kai Episode 106 (25 May 2014)

[Hujio]

General Discussion for Dragon Ball Kai episode 106, aired 25 May 2014

ビーデル、ボロボロ　悟飯の怒りも限界だ！！
Bīderu, Boroboro　Gohan no Ikari mo Genkai da!!
Videl, Worn Ragged — Gohan's Anger at its Limits!!

PLEASE SAVE DISCUSSION FOR AFTER THE EPISODE HAS AIRED

[Black_Liger]

A GREAT Episode, all the new tracks were amazing, this is where the orchestral goodness shined, the track when Gohan transformed was really awesome, and the new version of the Kaiohshin theme was superb. I´m loving this.

[TheAldella]

I enjoyed this episode a lot. I'm very happy that the meat of the Buu saga won't be treated as roughly as the beginning was.
Dat Super Saiyan echo too

[kei17]

The pacing was nice and there were no sloppy edits. There's enough amount of silence this time, too. Also, It was really nice to hear Ichiro Nagai's last job. R.I.P. Nagai.

But speaking of the score... The new tracks sound really out of place and don't feel like Dragon Ball at all. It felt like I was watching DBZ with some American video game music.

[Black_Liger]

I think the placement is leagues above the first episodes, and the score doesn´t sound american at all (except for the synth pieces). For example, not even the score from the dc animated movies or any american media sound like this and they are using a style which resembles anime a little, I think the orchestral cues of the sumitomo score resemble orchestral rpg soundtracks. (The track when gohan transformed Kinda reminds me of the orchestral cues of final fantasy)

And to be fair, asking a new composer to emulate kikuchi is imposible, and who knows if Toei themselves asked sumitomo (and even yamamoto for that matter) not try and give it a different feel?.

I love kikuchi, but seriously, his db score has the same ambience of all his other scores, the tenchi score could be used as buu saga score and no one would notice.

Not to bash your opinion, it´s yours and it´s to be respected, but it´s good to give credit where it´s due.

[theoriginalbilis]

I'd say the Sumitomo score feels "region-neutral"; it lacks the distinctly Asian flair on the Kikuchi DB/DBZ work and the heavily electronic/rock-based work of Faulconer Productions.

Definitely more in line with a modern day animated or video game production, I suppose.

[Black_Liger]

I'd say the Sumitomo score feels "region-neutral"; it lacks the distinctly Asian flair on the Kikuchi DB/DBZ work and the heavily electronic/rock-based work of Faulconer Productions.

Definitely more in line with a modern day animated or video game production, I suppose.

I don´t find the original kikuchi score to be asian style, it´s just the style that was commonly used in japan for anime and movie scores in that time. but most of it doesn´t sound asian at all.

And yeah, that would be a good depiction!.

[kei17]

I think the placement is leagues above the first episodes, and the score doesn´t sound american at all (except for the synth pieces). For example, not even the score from the dc animated movies or any american media sound like this and they are using a style which resembles anime a little, I think the orchestral cues of the sumitomo score resemble orchestral rpg soundtracks. (The track when gohan transformed Kinda reminds me of the orchestral cues of final fantasy)

And to be fair, asking a new composer to emulate kikuchi is imposible, and who knows if Toei themselves asked sumitomo (and even yamamoto for that matter) not try and give it a different feel?.

I love kikuchi, but seriously, his db score has the same ambience of all his other scores, the tenchi score could be used as buu saga score and no one would notice.

Not to bash your opinion, it's yours and it's to be respected, but it's good to give credit where it's due.

I know that you're a very enthusiastic Sumitomo fan, but you don't have to defend him by critically referring to other composers every time someone criticizes Sumitomo's work. I've seen it several times before.

[Black_Liger]

I think the placement is leagues above the first episodes, and the score doesn´t sound american at all (except for the synth pieces). For example, not even the score from the dc animated movies or any american media sound like this and they are using a style which resembles anime a little, I think the orchestral cues of the sumitomo score resemble orchestral rpg soundtracks. (The track when gohan transformed Kinda reminds me of the orchestral cues of final fantasy)

And to be fair, asking a new composer to emulate kikuchi is imposible, and who knows if Toei themselves asked sumitomo (and even yamamoto for that matter) not try and give it a different feel?.

I love kikuchi, but seriously, his db score has the same ambience of all his other scores, the tenchi score could be used as buu saga score and no one would notice.

Not to bash your opinion, it's yours and it's to be respected, but it's good to give credit where it's due.

I know that you're a very enthusiastic Sumitomo fan, but you don't have to defend him by critically referring to other composers every time someone criticizes Sumitomo's work. I've seen it several times before.

My apologies, I just do it to balance the board. Sumitomo's score is not perfect, but it's nowhere near as bad as some say, that's all

[kei17]

Sorry for getting a little off-topic, but let me say; It is very unfair to point out how Kikuchi lacks in the variety of his musical styles because Sumitomo has been involved with anime only a few times before, and you're comparing Kikuchi's DB score with other anime scores. Kikuchi does use distinct styles for non-anime stuff that sound nothing like his DB score.

Also, some of Sumitomo's tracks are flat-out rehashes of his scores for live-action films.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdTh-O65NcY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ujh8yczCe8

Anyway, personally, I don't find lack in variety of music styles bad at all, though. For example, Akira Ifukube consistently stuck to his own firm musical style, yet he is often counted among the greatest film score composers ever. One of the good things about the Kikuchi score is the entire unity of all the tracks, and it's something that Yamamoto and Sumitomo's scores lack. On this episode, the sudden change from some kind of tropical sounding tracks to overly grave sounding tracks was disturbing and I couldn't watch the rest of the episode seriously.

[Cold Skin]

Absolutely great episode!

First, the pace goes as fast as it should, it's so nice take a big step forward with fascinating events one after the other!
Second, the score is absolutely great, it gets to your heart, make you feel the epicness, feels varied and is able to change from ice to fire... Could possibly be the best Dragon Ball soundtrack ever if it keeps going that way, it understands what Dragon Ball is supposed to be (the equivalent to a Final Fantasy scope RPG, with the variety and epicness it implies), like Takaki's Ultimate Tenkaichi OST and - to a lower extent - Yamamoto, but mastering the fun side as well.

The scary tracks give you cold chills, the epic tracks make you shiver in excitement, and you feel the variety and the author's influences (oriental track from the last episode fitting Majin Boo's inspirations, just like the Egyptian track fitted Beerus' inspirations).
More than ever, the music seems to be the author's voice in this version, at the same level than the story, dialogues and pictures.

Don't you dare replace that again with the repeatitive, kind-of-just-there, "is there something exciting even going on?" Kikuchi before international releases! (I don't want to even think of that Super Saiyan 2 transformation of Gohan in the Cell Game, at least it was an insert song in the original Z...)

Those episodes are so much more fascinating to discover than even my first discovery when I was a kid.

[Blade]

The score when Gohan turns Super Saiyan 2 in demonstration to Kibito is so similar to two Faulconer tracks that I'd find it very hard to believe that Sumitomo wasn't either directly influenced by them or directed to write in the same style as them.

I'm not sure where I stand on that from an artistic perspective; I don't have a problem with the two Faulconer tracks in question, but I don't understand why they represent ground that needs to be covered again. Even as a stylistic statement, I'm not quite sure what the thinking was other than to pander to a Western audience. I know that originally it seemed that the Buu arc was intended for international release only, but it's unheard of for Toei to go to such lengths to appease the nostalgic tastes of a non-Japanese audience. It's unprecedented.

[GarrettCRW]

Sorry for getting a little off-topic, but let me say; It is very unfair to point out how Kikuchi lacks in the variety of his musical styles because Sumitomo has been involved with anime only a few times before, and you're comparing Kikuchi's DB score with other anime scores. Kikuchi does use distinct styles for non-anime stuff that sound nothing like his DB score.

Also, some of Sumitomo's tracks are flat-out rehashes of his scores for live-action films.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdTh-O65NcY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ujh8yczCe8

That Kikuchi track is definitely something different in character than what he scored for Dragon Ball/Z, but it's got his musical style to it, as is generally the case with better composers. (It's similar to what happened with Stephen King discovered when Richard Bachman was still his secret alias: readers could tell it was his work because artistic ability is like a finger print.)

But those Sumitomo tracks? YEESH. I haven't heard that blatant of a re-hash since Vince DiCola's scores for Rocky IV and Transformers: The Movie.

[Ajay]

I'm getting more and more into Kai as we progress into the main part of the arc. Sumitomo's score, the editing, and pacing have all improved dramatically over the past 3 or 4 episodes.

We're allowed silence, a moment to take in the scene and then presented with wonderfully appropriate music. This really has done a total 180 from those initial episodes.

It's certainly not perfect; I do think the score can drift into Faulconer drones at times but it's definitely improved substantially. One of the opening tracks from tonight's episode was so melodic and cinematic sounding that it really wouldn't have been out of place with some of Yamamoto's tracks from the previous arcs.

I think my biggest issue with tonight's episode was actually with Nozawa, surprisingly. She's been on point in every episode so far but I felt like her Gohan post-Super Saiyan transformation was totally off. It didn't sound like Gohan to me but rather a very stern Goku. She's usually particularly good at differentiating the characters but I didn't feel that was the case tonight. Perhaps I'm alone on that, I don't really know? I'll have to give it a rewatch.

We're finally moving away from the Tournament next week and with that, we should get a very new perspective on the series. Babidi and Dabura's introductions should be very interesting. Quite excited to hear Badibi's new voice actor.

Once again, bring on next week! I'm reasonably hyped up.

Screenshots - http://minus.com/mbxYEaZAhyTrBj
Music Highlights - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQgTttoE8gg

[Blade]

Faulconer drones

Sorry to nitpick, but it sort of irks me when I read this term on these forums. From a musical perspective, Faulconer doesn't use drones any where near as much as is implied by people here. In fact, the actual musical device of a drone was used a hell of a lot more by Kikuchi than Faulconer and his composers-in-residence.

What seems to have happened in the Fandom is that someone said 'The Faulconer score drones on and on', using the word in the non-musical, descriptive sense, to describe something as being banal, repetitive or uninspired, and that has some how fallen into the shared lexicon as 'Faulconer score uses drones'. But yeah, not really a fair association - especially when considered that it's usually stated in comparison to Kikuchi's score, which is downright musically incorrect.

[kei17]

I rewatched the episode and thought twice about the Sumitomo score. Now I think that the main problem with it to me is that it sounds too western and... dunno, but "sophisticated"? Sounding too western was a problem with the Yamamoto score, too, but it had appropriate amount of cheesiness and unpolishedness for a kids show, and Sumitomo's doesn't. Although it was okay for a movie, it's not something I expect from a martial arts oriented kids TV show.

Speaking of the "westernness", as some people have stated, Kikuchi's music is completely based on Western music theory, but it has some sort of oriental portions that feel nostalgic and familiar to me. Sumitomo's music feels a little bit too alien. I guess it's just me here.

[Ajay]

Faulconer drones

Sorry to nitpick, but it sort of irks me when I read this term on these forums. From a musical perspective, Faulconer doesn't use drones any where near as much as is implied by people here. In fact, the actual musical device of a drone was used a hell of a lot more by Kikuchi than Faulconer and his composers-in-residence.

What seems to have happened in the Fandom is that someone said 'The Faulconer score drones on and on', using the word in the non-musical, descriptive sense, to describe something as being banal, repetitive or uninspired, and that has some how fallen into the shared lexicon as 'Faulconer score uses drones'. But yeah, not really a fair association - especially when considered that it's usually stated in comparison to Kikuchi's score, which is downright musically incorrect.

I wouldn't know what else to call it. I don't describe it as a drone because it's repetitive or as a direct negative connotation but rather for having a lack of any better term. If you listen here, I'm referring to those long, drawn out sounds under the drums. They're something I've always associated with Faulconer's music and I've never really liked them. If you can suggest a better term, I'll start using that instead.

It's just, I always felt they shared similarities with drone music from the likes of Sun O))) and so I just used the term. I don't mean to come across as ignorant so feel free to fill me in.

[Blade]

Faulconer drones

Sorry to nitpick, but it sort of irks me when I read this term on these forums. From a musical perspective, Faulconer doesn't use drones any where near as much as is implied by people here. In fact, the actual musical device of a drone was used a hell of a lot more by Kikuchi than Faulconer and his composers-in-residence.

What seems to have happened in the Fandom is that someone said 'The Faulconer score drones on and on', using the word in the non-musical, descriptive sense, to describe something as being banal, repetitive or uninspired, and that has some how fallen into the shared lexicon as 'Faulconer score uses drones'. But yeah, not really a fair association - especially when considered that it's usually stated in comparison to Kikuchi's score, which is downright musically incorrect.

I wouldn't know what else to call it. I don't describe it as a drone because it's repetitive or as a direct negative connotation but rather for having a lack of any better term. If you listen here, I'm referring to those long, drawn out sounds under the drums. They're something I've always associated with Faulconer's music and I've never really liked them. If you can suggest a better term, I'll start using that instead.

It's just, I always felt they shared similarities with drone music from the likes of Sun O))) and so I just used the term. I don't mean to come across as ignorant so feel free to fill me in.

Whilst a long, sustained note is a drone, there's quite a bit of melodic variation in the clip you provided. There's actually a melody there if you listen carefully as opposed to just being a single note. I think what you're probably referring to are the long Synth swells/pads, as I guess in the Faulconer score they went for that quite a bit with their more atmospheric pieces - but truth be told, I think it probably rubs people up the wrong way more for the timbrel qualities of the synthesizers they used for it. If they'd have went for the same thing with an orchestra, I doubt people would be making the same complaints.

Here's an example of a drone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcCGAzkKj0w

[dbzfan7]

Things have really gotten a hell of a lot better. I really hope they fix the older episodes when they're released on DVD/Blue Ray and add in more variety to the soundtrack. Though I can't seem to hear the music clearly. It sounds muffled from where I'm watching.

[MagicBox]

I'm very pleased to hear so many voice actors returning to reprise their roles. I wasn't expecting this considering Kai seems to be even cheaper than it was before.

Not a single piece of music stood out this week, although I did like how Gohan's transformation was left (mostly) without any background music. The silence really does that scene wonders.

It was wonderful to hear Ichiro Nagai one last time. Rest in peace.