Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Kai.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Valerius Dover » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:26 pm

Black_Liger wrote:
That´s your opinion man, it´s not that bad. :) But well, the opening track was serious, but it was still good. it´s not like the terrible placement in Z where the ginyu force was introduced and a serious battle theme played... if you defend that, I can defend the opening scene in this episode because it was still action :D
Wait, really? A serious battle theme played in their introduction? And people say the English dub used a serious theme. I actually liked their initial theme in the dub (for Episodes 61-67). I thought it suited them quite nice.
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

User avatar
Black_Liger
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 am

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:40 pm

Valerius Dover wrote:
Black_Liger wrote:
That´s your opinion man, it´s not that bad. :) But well, the opening track was serious, but it was still good. it´s not like the terrible placement in Z where the ginyu force was introduced and a serious battle theme played... if you defend that, I can defend the opening scene in this episode because it was still action :D
Wait, really? A serious battle theme played in their introduction? And people say the English dub used a serious theme. I actually liked their initial theme in the dub (for Episodes 61-67). I thought it suited them quite nice.
They used the second track in this video for the original japanese ginyu force intro, not only it´s not written especifically for the scene, but it´s a common battle theme in that saga.


And I pretty much agree with Cold Skin on everything. :) I might be able to see where are you coming from with the fanfare, but I still think the placement was brilliant.
There's room for only one snake, and one big boss.

GarrettCRW
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: North Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by GarrettCRW » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:05 am

Anyone ever watch the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations"? It's the episode crosses over with "The Trouble With Tribbles" from the original series. The story, acting, etc. is great, but there's a glaring issue: the music (as was the case with all 24th Century-era TV Trek from about Season Two of The Next Generation on) is painfully bland, and at its worst, changes the tone of the episode in the worst way (see here and here to compare). This is precisely what's going on with Kai right now. Say what you will about Yamamoto, but his scores had personality, and his music editors knew what they were doing.

User avatar
worldmonsters
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 9:33 am
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by worldmonsters » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:23 pm

GarrettCRW wrote:Anyone ever watch the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations"? It's the episode crosses over with "The Trouble With Tribbles" from the original series. The story, acting, etc. is great, but there's a glaring issue: the music (as was the case with all 24th Century-era TV Trek from about Season Two of The Next Generation on) is painfully bland, and at its worst, changes the tone of the episode in the worst way (see here and here to compare). This is precisely what's going on with Kai right now. Say what you will about Yamamoto, but his scores had personality, and his music editors knew what they were doing.
I love that episode of DS9 :p Actually I sort of agree with you, but I also disagree. The music for later seasons of DS9 does start to become a bit bland in some episodes, but a lot of other episodes have awesome scores, for example "Call to Arms" or "Time's Orphan" or "Our Man Bashir". And the casino episode (forgot the title) had some great stuff :p "The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.

On the Dragon Ball Kai side of things, yeah, some music could've been placed better, especially that bloody trumpet score thing when Goku defeated Yakon. What the hell was that. Apart from that nothing was... glaringly wrong in my eyes. I also liked the disco track especially because Goku and Vegeta are just playing with their opponents. That serious theme at the beginning of the episode tho... that was a good piece of music for a show. Was it out of place? Yeah, it sort of was. I'll give you that. But it wasn't offensively wrong. The music editors have a lot to learn (my money is on them being interns :o), but at least we're getting a few tracks that are on a higher level than "barely passable" as some of the tracks were in the beginning.


As for the Tournament stuff... couldn't they have just... edited that together with this stuff? Cutting back and forth? That would at least prevent us from having one episode that has very little to add to the overall plot and isn't THAT interesting. Was it edited together in the manga, or a seperate side story like this?

User avatar
TheAldella
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:03 pm

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by TheAldella » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:38 pm

worldmonsters wrote: As for the Tournament stuff... couldn't they have just... edited that together with this stuff? Cutting back and forth? That would at least prevent us from having one episode that has very little to add to the overall plot and isn't THAT interesting. Was it edited together in the manga, or a seperate side story like this?
I'd prefer a clean narrative rather than getting into it and then being disappointed with cut-aways.
Favorite anime -
Naruto Shippuden
Dragon Ball Z Kai
Yu Yu Hakusho

Favorite movies -
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005)
Watchmen (2009)
Man of Steel (2013)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)
Wonder Woman (2017)
HybridSaiyan wrote:Super better nail the fusion right. I don't want to see some gay twirling shit like the Zamasu fusion when they should just smack dicks together and merge.

User avatar
Cold Skin
I Live Here
Posts: 2220
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: France

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Cold Skin » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:50 pm

worldmonsters wrote: As for the Tournament stuff... couldn't they have just... edited that together with this stuff? Cutting back and forth? That would at least prevent us from having one episode that has very little to add to the overall plot and isn't THAT interesting. Was it edited together in the manga, or a seperate side story like this?
It's like that in the manga too.

User avatar
Black_Liger
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 am

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:16 pm

GarrettCRW wrote:Anyone ever watch the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations"? It's the episode crosses over with "The Trouble With Tribbles" from the original series. The story, acting, etc. is great, but there's a glaring issue: the music (as was the case with all 24th Century-era TV Trek from about Season Two of The Next Generation on) is painfully bland, and at its worst, changes the tone of the episode in the worst way (see here and here to compare). This is precisely what's going on with Kai right now. Say what you will about Yamamoto, but his scores had personality, and his music editors knew what they were doing.
I totally disagree, Sumitomo score has personality, the kaiohshin theme and it's variation is proof of it, say what you want, but the episode where the team has that mid air talking following spopovitch and yamu, everything was spot on. Maybe the fanfare here is not to the liking of some people, but seriously, it really looks like you are just searching for flaws, I remember nobody even liked yamamoto score to begin with and now you do. XD
There's room for only one snake, and one big boss.

User avatar
TheGmGoken
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10592
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:19 pm

Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original
I DO NOT HAVE A TWITTER
Son Goten

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5833
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:30 pm

worldmonsters wrote:"The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.
Whoah, whoah. Any resemblance between Trials and Tribble-ations and seriousness is purely coincidental. If anything, the DS9 re-telling is even more unabashedly a comedy than the episode it's based on. Sisko gets Kirk's autograph. Dax fawns over everything like a Trekkie. Bashir considers having sex with someone he thinks is his great grandmother. O'Brien causes a power outage on the Enterprise. And there's an entire scene dedicated to calling attention to the fact that the Klingon makeup is totally different than it was in the '60s! This isn't just comedy. This is flat-out camp. The only reason there's an assassination attempt is to justify them being there at all, and the episode never takes that seriously. Only the characters do. I mean, the would-be assassin calls himself Barry Waddle. Barry. Waddle!

Sorry, I'm done now. I need to catch up on Kai. :)
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 9/2/19!)
Current Episode: Goku Attracts Bad Guys? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 17!

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Valerius Dover » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:04 pm

I'm excited right now! The full version of Kuu-Zen-Zetsu-Go will be released on Wednesday! :D

This sounds good, but my mind is still tossing and turning over how this International Version will turn out. It could be either the best or worst thing ever.
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

User avatar
Black_Liger
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 am

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:10 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original

Nope, Everything was like "The score is bland, Generic, is not db-esque enough, it has no punch, it's not fast paced like kikuchi" That's what I kept hearing :P (reading)
There's room for only one snake, and one big boss.

User avatar
BlazingFiddlesticks
I Live Here
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:48 pm

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:24 pm

Well I finally got in on this, not sure. That episode pacing can change so much from week to week based on the material covered it always Kai's wildcard. New Babidi sounds fine, goes a bit for the shrill Funi had (though not referentially, of course!). The silly music with Yakon... I don't know, it reminds me of how some modern children's animes (YGO GX comes to mind) will play a version of their title theme when a hero character is about to win. Given that Dragon Ball is not that sort of story and the viewer can already catch on that Yakon is about to get the glutton gutpunch, it works in that instance.
JacobYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
Canada

User avatar
FortuneSSJ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5284
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:42 pm

You simply dont mess with the Saiyans!
R.I.P. Pui Pui and Yakon. I enjoyed the new soundtrack that played when Goku turned SSJ.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

User avatar
TheGmGoken
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10592
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:09 pm

Black_Liger wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original

Nope, Everything was like "The score is bland, Generic, is not db-esque enough, it has no punch, it's not fast paced like kikuchi" That's what I kept hearing :P (reading)
I'm reading them now. I see mostly praise.
I DO NOT HAVE A TWITTER
Son Goten

User avatar
JEFFMAN219
Regular
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:55 pm

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by JEFFMAN219 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:01 pm

Just finished watching this episode and the pacing and the bgm music was great.

GarrettCRW
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: North Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by GarrettCRW » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:21 am

worldmonsters wrote:I love that episode of DS9 :p Actually I sort of agree with you, but I also disagree. The music for later seasons of DS9 does start to become a bit bland in some episodes, but a lot of other episodes have awesome scores, for example "Call to Arms" or "Time's Orphan" or "Our Man Bashir". And the casino episode (forgot the title) had some great stuff :p "The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.
Ronald B. Moore would beg to differ: "My only real gripe was the music – I had hoped it would be more like the original score and I thought it hurt the show particularly during the barroom brawl by changing the tone of the scene." If you think that the DS9 version was serious, my point and Moore's is served, as the score is wildly serious, and in line with Rick Berman's fiat, never even comes close to ever overpowering the ambient sound of the environments (which are also far more subdued than they were on the original show, Filmation series, and even the original cast movies). It's even more galling because "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a whopping 13 minutes of music composed for it (two minutes of which were discarded; the remaining music was cribbed from other episodes), when "Trials and Tribble-ations" had a "full" episode score.

The guts of Kai's musical problems are different because, like pretty much all TV animation, the score is comprised of a library of tracked music. The music editor is just as, and often even more important than, the person creating the score. And unless the episodes are still condensed from what they should be, the music editor for Kai is completely unable to make the best of a subpar score.

User avatar
Black_Liger
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 am

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:07 am

GarrettCRW wrote:
worldmonsters wrote:I love that episode of DS9 :p Actually I sort of agree with you, but I also disagree. The music for later seasons of DS9 does start to become a bit bland in some episodes, but a lot of other episodes have awesome scores, for example "Call to Arms" or "Time's Orphan" or "Our Man Bashir". And the casino episode (forgot the title) had some great stuff :p "The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.
Ronald B. Moore would beg to differ: "My only real gripe was the music – I had hoped it would be more like the original score and I thought it hurt the show particularly during the barroom brawl by changing the tone of the scene." If you think that the DS9 version was serious, my point and Moore's is served, as the score is wildly serious, and in line with Rick Berman's fiat, never even comes close to ever overpowering the ambient sound of the environments (which are also far more subdued than they were on the original show, Filmation series, and even the original cast movies). It's even more galling because "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a whopping 13 minutes of music composed for it (two minutes of which were discarded; the remaining music was cribbed from other episodes), when "Trials and Tribble-ations" had a "full" episode score.

The guts of Kai's musical problems are different because, like pretty much all TV animation, the score is comprised of a library of tracked music. The music editor is just as, and often even more important than, the person creating the score. And unless the episodes are still condensed from what they should be, the music editor for Kai is completely unable to make the best of a subpar score.
I keep reading, bad score, subpar score, but people really seem to ignore that some of the tracks are really memorable and well orchestrated.
There's room for only one snake, and one big boss.

User avatar
Blade
I Live Here
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:45 pm
Location: Contrary to popular belief, not on Kanzenshuu forums.
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Blade » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:23 am

Got around to watching this last night back to back with the three episodes prior - and I have to say, I think watching a batch of Buu Saga Kai episodes in one go seems to ease over a lot of the pacing issues.

It may be that watching each episode as they come on a weekly basis makes it a little harder to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to do pacing-wise, and that the product is perhaps a little ill-suited to an episode-per-week broadcast format.
'Multiculturalism means nothing in Japan, for every outside culture must pass first through the Japanese filter, rendering it entirely Japanese in the process.' - Julian Cope.

User avatar
Cold Skin
I Live Here
Posts: 2220
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: France

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Cold Skin » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:35 am

Black_Liger wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original

Nope, Everything was like "The score is bland, Generic, is not db-esque enough, it has no punch, it's not fast paced like kikuchi" That's what I kept hearing :P (reading)
Yes, I remembered how outraged I felt back then when every single time the great Yamamoto score would be bashed by 9 people out of 10.
And look at that, now some people (not only on this forum, but also elsewhere) are saying "where is the great Yamamoto score?"

So despite complains that the score is "not Dragon Ball" and "out of place" and the same old "who hired the audio editor?!" etc, I feel the "score is bad" comments much more tempered this time, less agressive. If we take Yamamoto being bashed and now regreted by some, I think it's a good sign on what Sumitomo will leave as an impression when it's all over.

Maybe that's why, on the contrary of back then, and despite the fact that I love the score and never found it wrong so far, I don't feel outraged by the "the score is dull" comments, since they're not even close to the bash Yamamoto kept getting at every single episode back then.

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

Post by Valerius Dover » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:30 am

So, a question. Have there been any instrumental versions of the the theme songs outside of the Next Episode Previews so far?
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

Post Reply