Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Nightstar1994 wrote:So is Kai re-run of DBZ with different BGMs and worse quality now?
Without meaning to sound pessimistic (after all, if other people are enjoying it, I'm glad), I think that's pretty much what it was to begin with, as far as I can tell. It has simply gotten a tad worse for the Buu saga, it would appear.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Xeogran » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:08 pm

Well atleast the Saiyan, Freeza and Cell Saga had nice insert songs (Over The Star, Ginyu Tokusentai, The Lone Warrior). I don't think I should hope for any occasion like that in Buu Kai anymore.

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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by dbboxkaifan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:33 pm

The score of Kai 1.0 was definitely superior than what we have now and the budget for the score of Kai 2.0 seems to be quite low due to the BGMs (not that great and generic video game-y) so they most likely couldn't afford (or want) to pay musicians to produce insert songs.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:26 am

Metalwario64 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:I swear they better not do Disco Ball Z on that moment. Please give us an epic original piece.
I have a feeling they'll use that same piece from when Vegeta was possessed. They've used that a ton, but it would fit in the Super Saiyan 3 scene quite well I feel.[/quote

That was my guess too. I really hope they don't. It'll make the moment feel less important and interchangeable. This moment really stands out and deserves an original SSJ3 music piece.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by kei17 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:45 am

I can easily imagine the SSJ3 transformation scene being ruined by an overly triumphant track.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Cold Skin » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:56 am

^ Wouldn't call it "ruining" anything when the Super Saiyan 3 can indeed be interpreted as a triumph, much like Vegeta's sacrifice.

Actually, many tracks could fit the Super Saiyan 3: it can either mean
- "this is a triumph" --> Wow, such a triumph!
- "this is beautiful, have tears in your eyes in front of this magnificence that you're watching" --> Wow, such a beautiful sight to behold!
- "this is badass and so cool" --> Wow, such a badass!
- "this is a happy event, Goku will save the day once again, please jump around in joy" --> Wow, so happy that there's a new impressive form!
- "this is sort of scary new overwhelming form, please be worried about what Goku may have changed into" (much like when he first turned Super Saiyan where there was a worrying music) --> Wow, kind of scary!
- "things are going to get serious now, heavy atmosphere track" --> Wow, time to get serious now!
- etc...

I think that for almost every moment, 75% of tracks would be acceptable choices that don't ruin anything and are various, valid interpretations of a same scene. Often, only "total paradox" contrasts can't work (sad music for a happy moment or happy music for something that can only be perceived as sad).
There's never such a thing as "this scene must go with that kind of music - or lack thereof - and that's the only way to make it good". There's more tracks that can work than tracks that can't work.

In that case, only a sad (there's nothing sad about it that viewers or characters could feel) or comedy track (there's nothing funny about it that viewers or characters could feel) couldn't fit, but any track that is either triumphant, epic, badass, beautiful, worrying, panic, eerie or happy could work.

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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:59 am

Cold Skin wrote:^ Wouldn't call it "ruining" anything when the Super Saiyan 3 can indeed be interpreted as a triumph, much like Vegeta's sacrifice.

Actually, many tracks could fit the Super Saiyan 3: it can either mean
- "this is a triumph" --> Wow, such a triumph!
- "this is beautiful, have tears in your eyes in front of this magnificence that you're watching" --> Wow, such a beautiful sight to behold!
- "this is badass and so cool" --> Wow, such a badass!
- "this is a happy event, Goku will save the day once again, please jump around in joy" --> Wow, so happy that there's a new impressive form!
- "this is sort of scary new overwhelming form, please be worried about what Goku may have changed into" (much like when he first turned Super Saiyan where there was a worrying music) --> Wow, kind of scary!
- "things are going to get serious now, heavy atmosphere track" --> Wow, time to get serious now!
- etc...

I think that for almost every moment, 75% of tracks would be acceptable choices that don't ruin anything and are various, valid interpretations of a same scene. Often, only "total paradox" contrasts can't work (sad music for a happy moment or happy music for something that can only be perceived as sad).
There's never such a thing as "this scene must go with that kind of music - or lack thereof - and that's the only way to make it good". There's more tracks that can work than tracks that can't work.

In that case, only a sad (there's nothing sad about it that viewers or characters could feel) or comedy track (there's nothing funny about it that viewers or characters could feel) couldn't fit, but any track that is either triumphant, epic, badass, beautiful, worrying, panic, eerie or happy could work.
^^^ This.

But my guess is that even if the placement is perfect, people would complain, if it's impossible to complain, they'll ignore the good scenes and go back to another episode to complain XD
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Ajay » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:08 am

Once again, someone else's complaint is not an unfounded whine just because you disagree with it. There's a reason the placement is being criticised weekly and that reason has been thoroughly explained time and time again. There were very few weekly complaints about the music during Kai's initial run so that argument falls flat regardless.

Too many are looking at the decision making process from a 'series-informed' point of view rather than a directorial one. A lack of consideration is being taken when it comes to what the audience would know at this point in the series, what each scene specifically represents and the character's motivations behind their actions. It's not a surface level 'this is badass, here's some badass music'. That's amateur thinking at best.

And Cold Skin, 'total paradox contrasts' can and do work. The term is 'contrapuntal' and it's used a lot in film. For example, in the anime Metropolis, the ending features scenes of destruction backed by the song 'I can't stop loving you'. It's actually incredibly powerful.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:25 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Once again, someone else's complaint is not an unfounded whine just because you disagree with it. There's a reason the placement is being criticised weekly and that reason has been thoroughly explained time and time again. There were very few weekly complaints about the music during Kai's initial run so that argument falls flat regardless.
I didn't say that, I just said that even if it was perfect, people would still complain. I mean, while there is terrible material in the new score, there's still pretty awesome material, but a lot of people insist those great samples are nothing but trash.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:31 pm

dbboxkaifan wrote:It was an okay episode for me but Yamucha or Videl just flying up there to get the ball rather than Bulma was a huge mistake and a time waste too. I thought I'd get to see Goten and Trunks learning fusion in this episode but nope that didn't happen.
This was one of my least favorite episodes of z and is probably my least favorite of kai. LOl

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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Ajay » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:40 pm

Black_Liger wrote:I didn't say that, I just said that even if it was perfect, people would still complain. I mean, while there is terrible material in the new score, there's still pretty awesome material, but a lot of people insist those great samples are nothing but trash.
How is this any different to what I just described?

You seem to be implying there's some objective classification for the placement and that anything that goes against that is whining for the sake of whining.

What you consider 'awesome material' might not be all that awesome to someone else.

Surely you understand subjectivity? I don't understand what you're getting at here.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:48 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote: How is this any different to what I just described?

You seem to be implying there's some objective classification for the placement and that anything that goes against that is whining for the sake of whining.

What you consider 'awesome material' might not be all that awesome to someone else.

Surely you understand subjectivity? I don't understand what you're getting at here.
The difference is that I'm not saying who is wrong or right in this case (even tho I agree with Cold Skin) I'm just, SAYING, even if it's good, there will be people who complain!. And I'm not calling any exact part of the series as relatively good or bad, people is just sickened with Kai, so even if it does something legitimately well, people would still complain as they got more than enough reasons to crap on it.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Cold Skin » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:50 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote: And Cold Skin, 'total paradox contrasts' can and do work. The term is 'contrapuntal' and it's used a lot in film. For example, in the anime Metropolis, the ending features scenes of destruction backed by the song 'I can't stop loving you'. It's actually incredibly powerful.
Yeah, but that's very specific. For example, in a slasher horror movie, the character was listening to a happy music and gets savagely murdered, and the discomfort comes from watching someone be murdered with happy music now playing as the movie's actual BGM (without a radio filter anymore).
The contrast can indeed reinforce the horror of something or the powerful emotion of sadness, but again, it is very specific to a certain kind of production and mise en scene: put on the Dragon Soul orchestral track on Vegeta's dying speech to Goku on Namek, and it fails. Or in Final Fantasy VII, put on the Victory Fanfare when Aerith is getting killed, and it fails.

So in most scenes, contrapuntal stuff is precisely what is not going to work (I don't think it could work anywhere in Dragon Ball), but I do agree with you that for certain kind of scenes and productions, it is on the contrary perfect to reinforce the power of the scene to an incredible level better than any other, more obvious style of music would have done.

But with Super Saiyan 3, the range of possibilities can be expected, there's no way to come up with something artistically daring that would daze everyone. It's going to be either triumphant, badass, happy or serious.
Toriyama is pretty straightforward in his creative process anyway and the way he shows things, so the music for his work might as well be straightforward too and must simply blatantly state "this is that kind of scene, okay? This is how you're supposed to feel".

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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by kei17 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:21 pm

Black_Liger wrote:The difference is that I'm not saying who is wrong or right in this case (even tho I agree with Cold Skin) I'm just, SAYING, even if it's good, there will be people who complain!
Be honest. I know that your complaints are specifically directed at people like me. There'd be no reason for you to say that kind of thing for really nothing.
Cold Skin wrote:But with Super Saiyan 3, the range of possibilities can be expected, there's no way to come up with something artistically daring that would daze everyone. It's going to be either triumphant, badass, happy or serious.
So you say that the SSJ3 transformation with happy music would wok for some people? Are you sane?
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Cold Skin » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:32 pm

^ Why not? If Piccolo arrives to save Gohan from a blast, can't it be considered a happy moment with happy music for the happy outcome?
Same goes for when the Super Saiyan 3 appears and will save the day.

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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:54 pm

kei17 wrote:
Black_Liger wrote:The difference is that I'm not saying who is wrong or right in this case (even tho I agree with Cold Skin) I'm just, SAYING, even if it's good, there will be people who complain!
Be honest. I know that your complaints are specifically directed at people like me. There'd be no reason for you to say that kind of thing for really nothing.
Cold Skin wrote:But with Super Saiyan 3, the range of possibilities can be expected, there's no way to come up with something artistically daring that would daze everyone. It's going to be either triumphant, badass, happy or serious.
So you say that the SSJ3 transformation with happy music would wok for some people? Are you sane?
I'm not saying I'm not against people complaining too much when I do enjoy the buu saga in kai. but this time, I'm taking a different approach. Fans will always complain. be it Zelda, be it dbz, hell I enjoyed parts of the new robocop movie which were actually good yet people complain even about the things that are geniunly good, and let's be honest, if this isn't enough reason for me to say some of it it's good, then there's no actual reason ALL of it is bad, as my opinion is not a fact, then it means yours is not either. (However there are certain aspects you really are right, and I accept them, as that there's genuine BAD music among the soundtrack in buu kai)
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by kei17 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:57 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Too many are looking at the decision making process from a 'series-informed' point of view rather than a directorial one. A lack of consideration is being taken when it comes to what the audience would know at this point in the series, what each scene specifically represents and the character's motivations behind their actions. It's not a surface level 'this is badass, here's some badass music'. That's amateur thinking at best.
This pretty much sums up the very problem with the music placement in Kai. No deep considerations of the characters' motivations and expectations that those who are new to the series would have.
Cold Skin wrote:^ Why not? If Piccolo arrives to save Gohan from a blast, can't it be considered a happy moment with happy music for the happy outcome?
Same goes for when the Super Saiyan 3 appears and will save the day.
Oh yeah, happy music also goes well with Cell's death because it's a very happy moment when Gohan finally saves the day! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtTeQrQkIfk
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Valerius Dover » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:32 pm

^The Kikuchi Kai placement, right? It sort of irked me at first, but I could see what they were going for by the end of the scene. Ginyu Transformation in Faulconer Z is still my preference, but this one isn't bad, to be honest. Of course, this makes me curious to know how the Kikuchi Z placement was.
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Puto » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:36 pm

No, that was custom placement. It's kei17 trying to show how placing a happy song on Cell's death doesn't work.

…though honestly, I love that song in there out of sheer hilarity.

On a more serious note though, if you want to put a happy theme on Cell's death, this might work? Kinda, sorta?
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Re: Kai Episode 122 (21 September 2014)

Post by Valerius Dover » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:25 pm

Oh, silly me, I forgot that custom placements were all the rage these days. :D
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