Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

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Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Hujio » Sat May 09, 2015 5:59 pm

General Discussion for Dragon Ball Kai episode 152, aired 10 May 2015

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by DBZ_Lee » Sat May 09, 2015 8:25 pm

Nice episode, I loved the music they played for Vegeta's speech, was just perfect for the moment. It was odd seeing them not cut any of Hell out, though I can't see much being cut at all now until the filler episode.
This week covered right until the conclusion of Z 280, so with 11 episodes left to cover, and with 8 of Kai remaining, assuming the 1 filler goes (288), that leaves 2 episodes worth of content to remove.
I'm talking International Version here, as I know the Japanese version is cutting another episode out.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Metalwario64 » Sun May 10, 2015 12:14 am

DBZ_Lee wrote:It was odd seeing them not cut any of Hell out.
What the fuck? :eh:

That's absurd. I can't believe they actually left that in. It's really is basically no different than Z at this point. The dub had better come soon, and had better be amazing or I'll have zero interest in this arc.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by coola » Sun May 10, 2015 12:43 am

Not to mention it completely ignore newest Toriyama movie, who had his vision of Hell :(
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Darkblade1995 » Sun May 10, 2015 6:00 am

Well I thought this was a pretty good episode. And about the Hell scene, these episodes were probably produced way before Toriyama even wrote Resurrection F, so I can understand why they left this scene in. And it's not like we ever saw Hell in the manga of the first iteration of Kai, so it's not exactly a plothole or anything, of course if you don't count the new movie.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by ShinGaijin » Sun May 10, 2015 6:21 am

Vegeta's respect for Goku : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq2c7KpYbHQ
This piece of music :clap: what a surprise, there's a longer version ! Awesome.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Xeogran » Sun May 10, 2015 6:41 am

Darkblade1995 wrote:Well I thought this was a pretty good episode. And about the Hell scene, these episodes were probably produced way before Toriyama even wrote Resurrection F, so I can understand why they left this scene in. And it's not like we ever saw Hell in the manga of the first iteration of Kai, so it's not exactly a plothole or anything, of course if you don't count the new movie.
It is a plot hole. The ogres knew Goku in this episode, but he never fell to Hell in Kai.

As soon as they got rid of Yamamoto they stopped putting any attention into Kai. It's like robots are making it :cry:

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Darkblade1995 » Sun May 10, 2015 7:20 am

Nightstar1994 wrote:
Darkblade1995 wrote:Well I thought this was a pretty good episode. And about the Hell scene, these episodes were probably produced way before Toriyama even wrote Resurrection F, so I can understand why they left this scene in. And it's not like we ever saw Hell in the manga of the first iteration of Kai, so it's not exactly a plothole or anything, of course if you don't count the new movie.
It is a plot hole. The ogres knew Goku in this episode, but he never fell to Hell in Kai.

As soon as they got rid of Yamamoto they stopped putting any attention into Kai. It's like robots are making it :cry:
Maybe, but Goku has been dead for 7 years, and we didn't see anything of it. Maybe he did go to Hell once and those ogres saw him and thats why they remembered him.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Ajay » Sun May 10, 2015 8:15 am

In a sea of truly dreadful songs, I'll admit that this track (which I've named "Vegeta does a nice thing") is definitely a good one, but it has yet to be placed well.

Much like its usage during Vegeta's sacrifice, it's just too celebratory and its placement misses the point of the moment.

The scene shows Vegeta painfully lamenting over his constant failures at besting Goku; all the times he thought that he, the prince of Saiyans, had finally beaten that lower class warrior. But he never could, and for someone with so much pride, that absolutely kills him inside. This scene shows him finally working through all that and admitting "Hang in there, Kakarrot!, You are Number One!".

It's not a happy scene. It's a very sad realisation for a tortured character. Kikuchi's track hits that tone so well. It's harrowing, heartbreaking, and sorrowful. It's the sound that scene needs.

Sumitomo's track, while nice, is just too uplifting. It's got this peacefulness to it that slowly builds into a finale that sounds like it belongs at the end of a battle. There's absolutely none of the sadness that this scene necessitates.

It's frustrating. Sumitomo does sad so well, yet there appears to be none of that on this soundtrack, or at least, whoever's in charge of placement, has yet to use anything resembling it.

If you need a modern track to go with that scene, you need something like Yamamoto's 'An Uplifting Choice' or perhaps the early parts of 'A Grim Fate'.

It's so tempting to go 'Yeah, that was good!' when a nice track pops up among the noise, but I hope context is being taken into account. I'm surprised to see positivity, but I guess it was the same when this song first popped up when Vegeta died.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2015 9:06 am

What's the title of the next episode?
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by bleed0range » Sun May 10, 2015 9:44 am

Metalwario64 wrote:
DBZ_Lee wrote:It was odd seeing them not cut any of Hell out.
What the fuck? :eh:

That's absurd. I can't believe they actually left that in. It's really is basically no different than Z at this point. The dub had better come soon, and had better be amazing or I'll have zero interest in this arc.

I don't think the point of Kai is to remove all filler, but rather just trim away the worst of it. Some people like the funny scenes in Hell. I mean I kind of do even though they're not in the manga. I think the biggest reason Kai exists was to reintroduce Z to younger kids and make the show more presentable for modern audiences. There's not much other reason for its existence. It's a fan dream to think they cut this stuff to be more true to the manga. They cut it mostly because it's cheaper to do, let's be honest.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by kei17 » Sun May 10, 2015 11:17 am

Now we have yet another scene butchered miserably by music. I agree to every bit of what AjayLikesGaming said. The scene is consist of Vegeta's monologue. It must focus on Vegeta's inner frustration, sadness, and appreciation of his rival that he's finally reached. Why does the music ignore all these feelings and merely tries to happily celebrate a "good scene" from a third person point of view? Motoyama, who placed the score, must be an emotionless asshole who cannot understand Vegeta's heart.

The scene could have been so much better with this track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCOZ9J-7fVI
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by LuckyCat » Sun May 10, 2015 11:33 am

ABED wrote:What's the title of the next episode?
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by RoarkVegeta » Sun May 10, 2015 12:46 pm

A very, very boring episode. Myself and the chat included were flabbergasted that they left the Hell scene in. What's the point? It also contradicts the point of Gozu and Mezu existing.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sun May 10, 2015 12:47 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
DBZ_Lee wrote:It was odd seeing them not cut any of Hell out.
What the fuck? :eh:

That's absurd. I can't believe they actually left that in. It's really is basically no different than Z at this point. The dub had better come soon, and had better be amazing or I'll have zero interest in this arc.
Ugh, how disappointing. That's incredibly frustrating. What's to be gained by keeping it in, does the scene flow better?

Not fundamentally opposed to all filler, but this is some of the more problematic stuff. Will be very hard to reconcile.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by MagicBox » Sun May 10, 2015 2:25 pm

I have to wholeheartedly agree with Ajay and kei. I could say what I dislike about the scene, but I would just be repeating what they said. That was almost painful. Not only that, but the music was mixed way too loudly. I can't hear Horikawa's performance enough to appreciate it, much less compare it to his speech in Z. This is not a triumphant moment at all. In fact, this only makes me more and more worried about how this staff is going to handle Super.

I realize that there are people who really want to support Kai, and I truly hate being a killjoy, but I don't think people appreciate just how damn good we had it back when we had Kikuchi. You can find this clip on YouTube with at least four different official music scores attached to it. There are too many interpretations. We've had replacement music after replacement music after replacement music for so long that people have become numb to having the tone ruined. Now it's almost impossible to make people appreciate just how perfectly Kikuchi's original music captures this moment. Vegeta's pain has been completely removed; the scene is now worthless.

Just another example of why Kai is a parasite to this fanbase and must be forgotten as quickly as possible. Hopefully it won't replace the original Z in reruns in Japan.

Also, we shouldn't be so surprised when they retain filler. It's been made clear from the very first episode back in 2009 that Kai absolutely does not care about matching the manga. It's just Z-lite. It's been Z-lite since the beginning.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Xeogran » Sun May 10, 2015 2:51 pm

Best things that Dragon Ball Kai did:

1. Introducing Takayoshi Tanimoto to the franchise.
2. Superb Insert Songs (Ginyu Tokusentai, The Lone Warrior)

So basically, music (current ost is good too, it's the placement that sucks).
MagicBox wrote:It's been made clear from the very first episode back in 2009 that Kai absolutely does not care about matching the manga. It's just Z-lite. It's been Z-lite since the beginning.
Not true, with Yamamoto they atleast tried. By getting rid of places like filler Hell and fake Namek I mean. After the incident they just decided to screw everything because who cares.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by MagicBox » Sun May 10, 2015 3:06 pm

From what I can see, Kai 2.0 (as it's been called) has received the exact same amount of care and effort from the staff as the original Kai. As in, hardly any. Yes, Buu-Kai is longer than Freeza-Kai and Cell-Kai, but that probably has more to do with foreign demand than anything else. "People across the world actually want more of this? Okay, we'll cut it down, but we'll still make it pretty long so that we can sell more episodes." That's why they probably don't care that retaining the Hell scene directly contradicts the 2015 movie that they're trying so hard to promote.

But the effort put into "following the manga?" The effort put into scoring the show? That's been pretty consistent across the board. Freeza-Kai and Cell-Kai still retain way too much filler. And I have just as many problems with the music placement in Yamamoto's version of Kai as I do with Sumitomo's. I honestly can't spot a drastic drop-off in quality with these Buu episodes.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Cold Skin » Sun May 10, 2015 4:04 pm

Hmm, I don't know if it was necessary to keep Goku falling off Super Saiyan 3 temporarily, but at least it's nice to see Vegeta rush to his help like a good friend.
Freezer kept was like that way before the new movie came up, it's not surprising that Toei will spare themselves the effort to ditch one scene and have to re-calibrate upcoming episodes rather than leaving it as-is. Plus, they must have thought: "great, Freezer in Kai, right in time to further promote the new movie currently in theaters!"

At least, the scene with Vegeta's speech was nailed perfectly (although I expected the "Gohan leaves Videl behind" track).
It's a beautiful moment where Vegeta realizes the magnificence of Goku with his heart warming all the way through, I always read that scene in the manga with some kind of "I realize the answer that makes my heart finally feel lighter than ever was here all along" kind of music.

It's nice, as the music is here to tell the audience "feel that way". If it's beautiful, give us a track that means "it's beautiful". If it's sad, give us a track that means "it's sad".
Soundtrack basics, it's all meant to make the audience feel this way or that way. When Aerith dies, you must feel it's dramatic and it makes you sad: put on some sad dramatic music and job done.
The objective here is: "Vegeta makes a beautiful speech about a beautiful smile-on-my-face proud-of-you realization that will beautifully participate to his beautiful newly-found happiness at knowing someone as exceptional as Goku".
So just put a music that means "it's a beautiful speech for a beautiful moment that makes a character happier".

Only seven episodes to go. Which track will replace Let It Burn? We'll find out in just a handful of episodes.
Last edited by Cold Skin on Sun May 10, 2015 4:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by NinjaGoku » Sun May 10, 2015 4:06 pm

MagicBox wrote:But the effort put into "following the manga?" The effort put into scoring the show? That's been pretty consistent across the board. Freeza-Kai and Cell-Kai still retain way too much filler. And I have just as many problems with the music placement in Yamamoto's version of Kai as I do with Sumitomo's. I honestly can't spot a drastic drop-off in quality with these Buu episodes.
I think there is a big difference in quality between the new and old Kai. Off the bat the opening animation isn't as detailed or animated to the same standard, there is a lot more filler than Freeza/Cell Kai arcs. The music is not nearly as well produced and is generally more repetitive or unfitting. Oh and then there is'nt going to be 4:3 ratio, and it uses weird filters.

Not saying it's bad, but there is a noticeable lack of effort when compared to the original Kai, mainly because Toei intended it for a different market before cancelling Toriko.

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