Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun May 10, 2015 5:01 pm

I just watched this after not having seen Kai in a long time, and was surprised to see filler content... isn't the point of Kai to remove filler? Also, the music placement felt really awkward, I hope Super isn't like this.... :problem:

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Naruto6583 » Sun May 10, 2015 5:27 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:I just watched this after not having seen Kai in a long time, and was surprised to see filler content... isn't the point of Kai to remove filler? Also, the music placement felt really awkward, I hope Super isn't like this.... :problem:
Considering kai 2.0 was done on a low budget then no super will not be like this
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by ParkerAL » Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm

I always find your thoughts on music placement insightful, AjayLikesGaming. However, I do sometimes wonder how much you subconsciously base your negative reaction to Sumitomo's score of a given scene on Kikuchi's interpretation, compared to the manga's original tone. Again, I respect your analysis of Buu Kai's scoring, and mostly agree that it's been pretty damn lackluster. But one could argue that Vegeta finally letting go of his fanatical rivalry with Goku is supposed to be at least somewhat uplifting. It shows his evolution and growth as a person, even if it does involve a lot of pain and sadness on his part.

Unfortunately, the Kai scene is completely saturated with that one upbeat emotion, and I vastly prefer the first anime's interpretation for that reason. There's a slight tinge of sadness to Sumitomo's track, but it's not enough. I mean, Jesus Christ, they might has well have played the Die Hard rendition of Ode to Joy over Vegeta's monologue, or the theme from Jurassic Park.

That said, I also don't think Kikuchi quite captured the full range of emotions we're supposed to feel when Vegeta finally admits Goku is "number one." To me, his track comes across a little too somber, here and there. But maybe that's just me interpreting it too much from an out-of-universe perspective, rather than from Vegeta's emotional state of mind at the time.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by MagicBox » Sun May 10, 2015 6:18 pm

In the Z scene, the music does pick up once Vegeta snaps out of his flashback and says his final line, so I'm pretty pleased with it (even if I do kind of understand what you're getting at). I don't mind the cheerful tone Kai takes once Vegeta starts wrapping up his speech, but I think the flashback itself is far too happy and celebratory.

I do think you bring up a very good point by reminding us to look at this from the perspective of reading the manga as opposed to just simply comparing Kai to Z. I still think the Kai version was pretty poorly handled, but there are indeed multiple (correct) ways to handle this scene.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by DBZ_Lee » Sun May 10, 2015 6:59 pm

I personally have no issue with this iteration of Kai, I know the remastering has been sub-par, but they've removed enough filler to make it more entertaining than sitting through an extra 23 episodes with my Dragon Boxes.

Like Cold Skin said, they won't remove 5 minutes of filler if it means they'll have to edit 2 or 3 episodes after, it's not worth it for them.
I enjoyed the Vegeta scene, and felt it was handled ok, not great, but it is good enough (my opinion). I think, at least until Buu is defeated, the next few episodes will be 1:1 with Z.
They'll skip the filler episode, and then cut around 20 minutes from the last 3 Z episodes (I'm talking International Version).

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Ajay » Sun May 10, 2015 7:48 pm

ParkerAL wrote:I always find your thoughts on music placement insightful, AjayLikesGaming. However, I do sometimes wonder how much you subconsciously base your negative reaction to Sumitomo's score of a given scene on Kikuchi's interpretation, compared to the manga's original tone. Again, I respect your analysis of Buu Kai's scoring, and mostly agree that it's been pretty damn lackluster. But one could argue that Vegeta finally letting go of his fanatical rivalry with Goku is supposed to be at least somewhat uplifting. It shows his evolution and growth as a person, even if it does involve a lot of pain and sadness on his part.
I figured someone might ask me about that at some point, though I expected a "Shut up Kikuchi fanboy, have an open mind!" kinda comment. Thanks for putting it so tactfully.

Perhaps surprising to some, but the answer is no. I base my opinions on what I consider appropriate for what's happening on the screen; what the characters are feeling or what a scene represents. I love a majority of Kai 1.0 and that's certainly pretty far from Kikuchi! Definitely disagree with MagicBox on that. There's moments that are questionable, but they're few and far between, unlike Kai 2.0 where it feels like there's something dreadful in every episode.

Though the supplementary video was taken down for copyright, you can find an older post of mine that breaks down Gohan's power up and arrival at the battlefield, along with talking about which score works and which doesn't. I'd like to think it gives a bit of insight into how I approach judging these scenes.

Though, to be perfectly honest, a lot of it is just a gut feeling. If I'm watching something and it feels entirely off, I tend to look into exactly what I think is causing me to feel that way. Sometimes it's an obvious directorial difference that I disagree with, or perhaps I simply don't like the song, but other times it's just a poorly placed, infuriating track.

A few months back, I actually worried myself about being closed minded, so I sent across a comparison to a friend who has never seen Dragon Ball and asked for his opinions. Here's what he said:
Not that this proves anything, but I thought you might like to know I do occasionally look for validation when I worry I might be misguided in my original judgement.

Regarding taking the manga into consideration, I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. If we take a look at the manga, it's entirely different to how it's presented in the anime:
It's a very simple acknowledgement that Goku is number one. There's no wallowing in failing to best him or flashbacks as he laments over his losses - heck, he's smiling in these panels. It's a scene about pure respect, and that's absolutely fine. However, that's not what we're being given in the anime. Horikawa's delivery is pained and the dialogue talks extensively about how he can't believe he was overtaken by someone he considers beneath him. The script and performance dictates how that scene plays out and the music needs to support it.

If Horikawa gave Vegeta a more humble reading and the dialogue matched the manga, I would have no issues with the track used. The anime takes a different, darker and more introspective direction, and that's what we should be judging the scene by. Unfortunately, it totally fails at supporting its clear intentions. I absolutely cannot excuse it.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Metalwario64 » Sun May 10, 2015 10:23 pm

I'd never seen the manga version of that scene until just now.

If Kai had any effort put into it, not only could they have cut out the hell filler, but they could have altered Vegeta's speech to be just like the manga. They could have cut everything out and reworded the dialog, since most of the scene shows Goku fighting Buu anyway.

Such a damn wasted opportunity.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Mon May 11, 2015 2:17 am

Ah man, I was hoping they'd play this song during Vegeta's Respect scene: http://youtu.be/lCOZ9J-7fVI

The song that they did use would be more appropriate for when Goku kills Buu with the Spirit Bomb, but knowing Kai 2.0, it'll probably be some incredibly unfitting track.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Naruto6583 » Mon May 11, 2015 3:34 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Ah man, I was hoping they'd play this song during Vegeta's Respect scene: http://youtu.be/lCOZ9J-7fVI

The song that they did use would be more appropriate for when Goku kills Buu with the Spirit Bomb, but knowing Kai 2.0, it'll probably be some incredibly unfitting track.
Wasn't the last time we heard that track episode 120?
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Mon May 11, 2015 7:04 am

Naruto6583 wrote:
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Ah man, I was hoping they'd play this song during Vegeta's Respect scene: http://youtu.be/lCOZ9J-7fVI

The song that they did use would be more appropriate for when Goku kills Buu with the Spirit Bomb, but knowing Kai 2.0, it'll probably be some incredibly unfitting track.
Wasn't the last time we heard that track episode 120?
Yes, I believe so. They don't use the track much which is a shame really. Its my favourite track from Kai 2.0's soundtrack.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Naruto6583 » Mon May 11, 2015 10:01 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:
Naruto6583 wrote:
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Ah man, I was hoping they'd play this song during Vegeta's Respect scene: http://youtu.be/lCOZ9J-7fVI

The song that they did use would be more appropriate for when Goku kills Buu with the Spirit Bomb, but knowing Kai 2.0, it'll probably be some incredibly unfitting track.
Wasn't the last time we heard that track episode 120?
Yes, I believe so. They don't use the track much which is a shame really. Its my favourite track from Kai 2.0's soundtrack.
Which is sad when you think about it a lot of sumitomo's good tracks in kai 2.0 are overused
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon May 11, 2015 6:06 pm

Hey guys, is the chap who places the music in Kai 2.0 the same one who places the movie one's too (BoG and "F") ?

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Ajay » Mon May 11, 2015 6:19 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Hey guys, is the chap who places the music in Kai 2.0 the same one who places the movie one's too (BoG and "F") ?
No, from what I understand, Sumitomo scores along with the film; personally deciding which track goes where.

Satoru Motoyama is in charge of music placement in Kai 2.0. Yeah... He's not very good.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue May 12, 2015 12:30 pm

Ahh I see. Well Kai 2.0 looked half-assed from the start, so would not suprise me if TOEI just picked the first person they saw to place the music :lol:
I sincerely hope they put more care in Super. Everything with "F" has been great then you come to Kai 2.0, just don't know what you are going to get with TOEI I suppose.

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue May 12, 2015 12:38 pm

The episode directors will decide where music goes for Dragon Ball Super. That's how Toei Animation series typically work these days, outside of Dragon Ball Kai.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue May 12, 2015 12:43 pm

JulieYBM wrote:The episode directors will decide where music goes for Dragon Ball Super. That's how Toei Animation series typically work these days, outside of Dragon Ball Kai.
That is very reassuring thanks!

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Basaku » Tue May 12, 2015 10:11 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I sincerely hope they put more care in Super
If they don't, Sailor Moon Crystal backlash will look positively timid in comparsion. I can't understand how in the internet/Photoshop/stop-frame era Toei can still operate like its 1980s. Cutting corners gets literally magnified within minutes by fans these days and plastered all over internet in form of memes and rants. And it can be very damaging to a property's reputation, especially when it comes to such beloved and iconic properties lke Dragon Ball

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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Rukura » Wed May 13, 2015 11:40 am

bleed0range wrote:I don't think the point of Kai is to remove all filler
Actually, it was. It was brought up to be a "manga cut" of the anime which, by itself, implies the cutting of AT LEAST filler material that contradicts the source material it was based on. Like filler hell from this episode and filler heaven from the last.

The problem is that it was never gonna be fully possible, with some of the manga content never having been properly adapted into the anime. However, none of that excuses episodes like the Vegetto one. Where MORE THAN HALF the episode is filler.

Yes, they did this to save money and not animate the whole series from scratch, but the point was to cut all filler first and foremost. "Was" being the keyword.
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Valerius Dover » Wed May 13, 2015 12:00 pm

So, do any of these episodes directly correspond to Z? As in, start and end at the same point and not cut anything out?
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Re: Kai Episode 152 (10 May 2015)

Post by Naruto6583 » Wed May 13, 2015 3:54 pm

Valerius Dover wrote:So, do any of these episodes directly correspond to Z? As in, start and end at the same point and not cut anything out?
Episode 151 ended with goku and buu staring down. This episode begins where the original z version ended.
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