Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:53 am

Is anybody going to mention that this episode implies that SSG, though way faster than Goku's Super Saiyan transformations, is only as powerful as his SS form?

This actually makes a lot of sense if you think about what Beerus and Goku said about the God-form way back in episode 13 and 14.

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:47 am

JazzMazz wrote:Is anybody going to mention that this episode implies that SSG, though way faster than Goku's Super Saiyan transformations, is only as powerful as his SS form?
Nothing implies such..
All the episode said about SSG is it's weaker and slower than SSB but has better stamina usage..
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5461
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:05 am

Comments on this episode:

- The intro narration seems to imply Obuni was the last remaining Universe 10 warrior when he took on Gohan, but there was another guy who Piccolo beat that was still in the tournament when the fight started
- So how does Dyspo know about Hit's technique anyway? Did the gods of Universe 11 do some information gathering or something?
- I know I've complained about this before, but the battlefield seems awfully quiet and empty. There are supposed to still be dozens of fighters left, so where are they all?
- So not only the Zenos but Champa too it seems can't track Dyspo's movement
- What is even the point of mentioning the speed of sound if someone has surpassed the speed of light? The speed of light is like hundreds of thousands of times faster than sound.
- Shouldn't they all be moving at superhuman speeds all of the time? Or maybe Hit has a different definition of 'superhuman'
- So Hit takes so long to prepare his time skip that the sound of his muscles has time to travel the distance to Dyspo's ears? Seems kind of odd. But I guess that helps explain how Goku could predict him.
- The vuvuzela reference was funny
- Why doesn't Hit use that technique where he goes into another dimension to become intangible?
- Ah, there he goes. Come to think of it, why doesn't Hit just stay in that dimension all the time? We already know he can attack from it, so other than enemies who have powerful enough ki to break through the dimension, there's no way anyone could even hit him
- So only two fighters teaming up against another, in a battle royale of 80 fighters, is fighting dirty? Why not just make it one-on-one matches, then?
- I knew it was coming but I guess this confirms that Goku can access SSJG at will and doesn't need the ritual anymore. Also it seems to be a major retcon regarding the stamina use vs SSJB
- Goku is such a glory hog... he does this kind of crap to Vegeta and now to Hit
- Finally someone interrupts Goku before he can use IT... I think that's the first time we've seen that happen
- If time is stopped, wouldn't that mean that the threads wouldn't explode, since they would be stopped too? Or is it different because it's a time skip, not time stop?
- Using that technique is dangerous, if Hit kills someone he'll be disqualified
- I'm not sure I really get Hit's tactic here. If he faked tensing his muscles for a time skip, then Dyspo would use super speed and attack, but whether he actually used time skip or not, wouldn't he still be too fast for Hit to react to? Or was he predicting his movements like Goku did?
- I'd disagree with Toppo there - I think the clear evil here is the two Zenos
- I thought Hit said he didn't want Goku's help
- So if Roshi uses Mafuba and dies using it, will his opponent be disqualified, or will it be ruled a suicide?

Decent episode, all things considered
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:09 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Is anybody going to mention that this episode implies that SSG, though way faster than Goku's Super Saiyan transformations, is only as powerful as his SS form?
Nothing implies such..
All the episode said about SSG is it's weaker and slower than SSB but has better stamina usage..
If SSG was stronger than Goku's SS, Whis would have said something more along the lines "it's vastly superior to SS and uses less stamina than SSB". Instead we got "It's faster than SS and uses less stamina than SSB". Thats a pretty clear indication of where the form stands in pure power, and also completely consistent with Goku's remarks about his power in SS during his battle with Beerus; "I don't feel like I've gotten weaker."

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:24 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Is anybody going to mention that this episode implies that SSG, though way faster than Goku's Super Saiyan transformations, is only as powerful as his SS form?
Nothing implies such..
All the episode said about SSG is it's weaker and slower than SSB but has better stamina usage..
If SSG was stronger than Goku's SS, Whis would have said something more along the lines "it's vastly superior to SS and uses less stamina than SSB". Instead we got "It's faster than SS and uses less stamina than SSB". Thats a pretty clear indication of where the form stands in pure power, and also completely consistent with Goku's remarks about his power in SS during his battle with Beerus; "I don't feel like I've gotten weaker."
Nobody commented on anything about SSG's strength..
it's vastly superior to SS and uses less stamina than SSB can be interpreted as SSG is much faster and stronger than SS or SSG is simply faster than SS..

Goku needed speed greater than SS but wanted to conserve stamina and thus no blue on full throttle.. Going SSG can simply mean he is stonger and faster than SS but not weaker than blue.. If speed is the important factor here, there isn't any need to make every single comparison of strength with every form..

I do understand your point though, but if we take that into account, every opponent Goku fights in SS, suddenly needs to be god tier.. Which cannot happen without so much as a line about their growth..

Considering all that, the SSG is as storng as SS instance can safely be ignored..
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10132
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:06 am

JazzMazz wrote:Is anybody going to mention that this episode implies that SSG, though way faster than Goku's Super Saiyan transformations, is only as powerful as his SS form?

This actually makes a lot of sense if you think about what Beerus and Goku said about the God-form way back in episode 13 and 14.
That would actually explain everything quite nicely, like you said it explains BoG and why he hasn't used SSG 'till now. Hope they follow through on it later, if we see SSG again, and give us a definitive answer on it.

User avatar
Pluto
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:33 pm
Location: 4,032-Green-877 U6

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Pluto » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:11 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:- What is even the point of mentioning the speed of sound if someone has surpassed the speed of light? The speed of light is like hundreds of thousands of times faster than sound.
- So Hit takes so long to prepare his time skip that the sound of his muscles has time to travel the distance to Dyspo's ears? Seems kind of odd. But I guess that helps explain how Goku could predict him.
- Finally someone interrupts Goku before he can use IT... I think that's the first time we've seen that happen
- If time is stopped, wouldn't that mean that the threads wouldn't explode, since they would be stopped too? Or is it different because it's a time skip, not time stop?
Well, that's what you get when the writers are flat-earth physicists :P
In the year 42 of our god calendar, Zarma acquired a special patent for his original design.

User avatar
Noah
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7388
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Noah » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:22 am

Liquir wrote:Now there are 2 Zen-Oh's attendants as before. Where are the other 2 from the Future Zeno? Was it retconned again to them being just 2 or it's just for the Tournament?

Episode 104
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
We might never know.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

Nero<>Akira
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:05 am

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:24 am

There is literally nothing wrong with Goku using SSG and there is no explanation required. Goku turned to SSG for a few seconds before his fight with Beerus ended and dissipated his energy blast. With no ritual. At this point, people need to realize Goku doesn't need the ritual to become a SSG. He's absorbed the form to his body. Derp. If it took Goku this long to even use the form, that means he hadn't come up with his strategy before. It's fairly THAT simple.

Let's also remember that NONE of his forms besides SSG or SSB are god level. If he was using God Ki in any of those forms, he would be going into the SSG or SSB forms. The reason he even transforms to begin with is BECAUSE that's when he's using that power. Whis' statement is not that difficult to understand. SSG is better than SS. SSG wouldn't be faster than SS and just as strong lol Come on now. And SSB is better than SSG in every way except stamina. However, the entire stamina mention of SSB doesn't really mean much since Goku has borderline conquered that aspect of the form. Regardless though, a prolonged period of time would eventually wear him down faster. Also, can we also think about the fact that Goku may still use this strategy later?

I'm not disappointed with the episode. It was a really great episode.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

User avatar
TekTheNinja
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:36 pm
Location: The realm of annoyance.

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by TekTheNinja » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:30 am

This episode could have been much better if Goku never showed up. It felt like he was shoehorned in to fill a Goku quota or something. This could have easily been a Hit solo episode and that would have been way better.
-A bitter fan of the human characters of Dragon Ball.
Chris Sabat wrote:#YamchaForever
saiyanvegetable wrote:Trunks slowly realizes this is not the past he came to when he fought Cell, instead he finds himself trapped in a world with hollow caricatures, a talking cat, and a Goku who beat the heart virus but is suffering from retardation.

User avatar
gofishus
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by gofishus » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:52 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote: Nothing implies such..
All the episode said about SSG is it's weaker and slower than SSB but has better stamina usage..
If SSG was stronger than Goku's SS, Whis would have said something more along the lines "it's vastly superior to SS and uses less stamina than SSB". Instead we got "It's faster than SS and uses less stamina than SSB". Thats a pretty clear indication of where the form stands in pure power, and also completely consistent with Goku's remarks about his power in SS during his battle with Beerus; "I don't feel like I've gotten weaker."
Nobody commented on anything about SSG's strength..
it's vastly superior to SS and uses less stamina than SSB can be interpreted as SSG is much faster and stronger than SS or SSG is simply faster than SS..

Goku needed speed greater than SS but wanted to conserve stamina and thus no blue on full throttle.. Going SSG can simply mean he is stonger and faster than SS but not weaker than blue.. If speed is the important factor here, there isn't any need to make every single comparison of strength with every form..

I do understand your point though, but if we take that into account, every opponent Goku fights in SS, suddenly needs to be god tier.. Which cannot happen without so much as a line about their growth..

Considering all that, the SSG is as storng as SS instance can safely be ignored..
Well considering that SSG is faster/stronger than SSJ and uses less stamina than SSJ Blue or SSJ3, one might wonder why Goku only busted out SSG now and not in the Future Trunks Saga. Well.. my guess is that he needed the power of SSJ Blue to fight major villains, and he used SSJ2 a lot in other instances simply because he didn't want to overwhelm his opponents?

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:32 pm

gofishus wrote: Well considering that SSG is faster/stronger than SSJ and uses less stamina than SSJ Blue or SSJ3, one might wonder why Goku only busted out SSG now and not in the Future Trunks Saga. Well.. my guess is that he needed the power of SSJ Blue to fight major villains, and he used SSJ2 a lot in other instances simply because he didn't want to overwhelm his opponents?
Because SSG makes you skinny and sometimes you just need them muscles to not look like a Redhead Barbie doll...
You think Zamasu will be intimidated by a freaking Barbie?! Hell no, bring in that blue muscular mojo and bingo.. Gets them everytime..
As for why he is using it now, it's because everyone witnessing it is gonna die soon..

There's no point in trying to get it to make sense, they most likely just thought about including it, just assume Goku mastered it after trunks arc..
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:31 pm

Tombstone1988 wrote:When SSG is now back with no explanation as to when/why it's viable, it makes certain scenes in the past seem sillier to me.
They explained this episode in detail why it's viable.
Tombstone1988 wrote:For example, if SSG was available as far back as the Universe 6 Tournament, shouldn't Goku have used that against Hit?
Nope, because he used SSB Kaioken x10 instead. Two different approaches that reached the same result, as we saw in anime and manga.
Tombstone1988 wrote:When he sparred with 17 and went SSB even though he "didn't intend to," that means he's now skipped 3 forms in that fight rather than 2, making 17's power jump possibly larger than previously thought.
Not really sure what you mean. It doesn't make 17's power jump bigger than previously thought. SSB is still above SSG, SSG existing doesn't mean anything in terms of how powerful 17 is because he was already being compared to SSB to begin with. Whether the existence of SSG was known or not, he was already beyond it to begin with.
Tombstone1988 wrote:And if stamina is a major concern for the ToP, shouldn't SSG be considered by Goku before SSB when taking on opponents? Even if he's only turning Blue on for less than a minute, surely SSG is still a more sensible option than SSB in the long run.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I hope we see him using SSG more and this wasn't just a one off fan service thing. Still, Goku hasn't really used SSB yet to fight seriously. He's really only ever activated it for very short periods of time, meaning that the stamina drain isn't too bad. (at least if we're going with the logic now that the stamina drain is NOT on activation but rather passive depending on how long you use the form) In this instance though he was fighting a stronger opponent where the battle lasted longer, so he opted for SSG instead.
Tombstone1988 wrote:Proper explanations stop thoughts like these from bouncing around my head; that's why I always prefer them over just making assumptions.
Super has always had a huge problem with explanations, but some are worse than others. For example, try putting together an explanation as to how the fuck Trunks used the Spirit Bomb Sword or what the hell Super Saiyan Rage is. Even assumptions and fan theories can't make much sense of it. In situations like these though where there's no explanation given, it's still at least pretty easy to put together why Goku hasn't used the form in forever. He's never had an opportunity where he needed to use it again since its only real benefit over SSB is stamina conservation and there's almost never a need for stamina conservation in a Dragon Ball fight because senzu beans, but obviously all of that changes in this tournament.
Ki Breaker wrote:There's no point in trying to get it to make sense
It's actually extremely easy to make sense of. Why would Goku use SSG in his battle against Zamasu? What sense would that make to use a weaker form against the strongest opponent they have ever faced? If SSB can't even hurt him, why would you go SSG?
Last edited by Asura on Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:33 pm

Can we talk about the NEP and Roshi? Why does Goku make it sound like Roshi using the Mafuba is going to kill him? Why can Goku and Trunks (and perhaps Piccolo?) use the Mafuba, but if Roshi uses it he dies?

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:36 pm

Asura wrote:Can we talk about the NEP and Roshi? Why does Goku make it sound like Roshi using the Mafuba is going to kill him? Why can Goku and Trunks (and perhaps Piccolo?) use the Mafuba, but if Roshi uses it he dies?
Using Mafuba on someone stronger than you, you die, someone weaker, then you survive..
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

User avatar
Boo Machine
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 7:44 pm
Location: On the Track to NoWhere

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:39 pm

I assume Roshi could die doing the Mafuba while Goku and Trunks don't is because those 2 are just vastly stronger than Roshi and are able to withstand whatever strain the Mafuba uses.

Or at least that's how I saw it before, though with Roshi's secret training or whatever he did, I imagine he will be fine. Some predict he might just get disqualified for the bottle.
Last edited by Boo Machine on Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SUBARASHII! - Goku Black

I am the Great Saiyaman! Defender of truth! Protector of the innocent! Upholder of justice! Doer of good!

To Infinity, then stop!

Anime are Cartoons.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:40 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
Asura wrote:Can we talk about the NEP and Roshi? Why does Goku make it sound like Roshi using the Mafuba is going to kill him? Why can Goku and Trunks (and perhaps Piccolo?) use the Mafuba, but if Roshi uses it he dies?
Using Mafuba on someone stronger than you, you die, someone weaker, then you survive..
Seemed to me like Zamasu was giving Trunks quite a run for his money, even disregarding the immortality. It saved him once, but otherwise Zamasu was laying the smack down right back at him.

Also is that an actual canon rule about the Mafuba? Never heard that brought up before.

User avatar
Whatever
Regular
Posts: 713
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:03 pm

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Whatever » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:57 pm

Asura wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
Asura wrote:Can we talk about the NEP and Roshi? Why does Goku make it sound like Roshi using the Mafuba is going to kill him? Why can Goku and Trunks (and perhaps Piccolo?) use the Mafuba, but if Roshi uses it he dies?
Using Mafuba on someone stronger than you, you die, someone weaker, then you survive..
Seemed to me like Zamasu was giving Trunks quite a run for his money, even disregarding the immortality. It saved him once, but otherwise Zamasu was laying the smack down right back at him.

Also is that an actual canon rule about the Mafuba? Never heard that brought up before.
Yep,the Mafuba is taxing no matter how strong you are.If you use it against someone weaker than you then it only uses up stamina/ki.
If you use it against someone stronger then you will most likely die.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:09 pm

Whatever wrote:
Asura wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote: Using Mafuba on someone stronger than you, you die, someone weaker, then you survive..
Seemed to me like Zamasu was giving Trunks quite a run for his money, even disregarding the immortality. It saved him once, but otherwise Zamasu was laying the smack down right back at him.

Also is that an actual canon rule about the Mafuba? Never heard that brought up before.
Yep,the Mafuba is taxing no matter how strong you are.If you use it against someone weaker than you then it only uses up stamina/ki.
If you use it against someone stronger then you will most likely die.
Where are you guys actually getting this information from though? I can't find anything official that explains that the Mafuba works like that.

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:28 pm

Asura wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
Asura wrote:Can we talk about the NEP and Roshi? Why does Goku make it sound like Roshi using the Mafuba is going to kill him? Why can Goku and Trunks (and perhaps Piccolo?) use the Mafuba, but if Roshi uses it he dies?
Using Mafuba on someone stronger than you, you die, someone weaker, then you survive..
Seemed to me like Zamasu was giving Trunks quite a run for his money, even disregarding the immortality. It saved him once, but otherwise Zamasu was laying the smack down right back at him.

Also is that an actual canon rule about the Mafuba? Never heard that brought up before.
The manga Goku clearly said even trunks here can handle Zamasu and I vaguely remember something similar being indicated in the anime too, he was supposed to be weaker than Trunks and Mafuba not killing him kind of proved the point..

Yes, that's an actual rule..
When you are in a similar ballpark of strength, you don't die using the Mafuba, see Kami trying it out on Piccolo, but you do die when the opponent is out if your league, see Roshi trying it out on Piccolo..
Damn piccolo gets Mafubad a lot
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

Post Reply