Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

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Asura
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:31 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
Asura wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote: Using Mafuba on someone stronger than you, you die, someone weaker, then you survive..
Seemed to me like Zamasu was giving Trunks quite a run for his money, even disregarding the immortality. It saved him once, but otherwise Zamasu was laying the smack down right back at him.

Also is that an actual canon rule about the Mafuba? Never heard that brought up before.
The manga Goku clearly said even trunks here can handle Zamasu and I vaguely remember something similar being indicated in the anime too, he was supposed to be weaker than Trunks and Mafuba not killing him kind of proved the point..

Yes, that's an actual rule..
When you are in a similar ballpark of strength, you don't die using the Mafuba, see Kami trying it out on Piccolo, but you do die when the opponent is out if your league, see Roshi trying it out on Piccolo..
Damn piccolo gets Mafubad a lot

Until I actually see some official documentation or something officially said in the anime or manga regarding that, it's not a rule and it sounds like headcanon to me until proven otherwise.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:33 pm

Asura wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
Asura wrote:
Seemed to me like Zamasu was giving Trunks quite a run for his money, even disregarding the immortality. It saved him once, but otherwise Zamasu was laying the smack down right back at him.

Also is that an actual canon rule about the Mafuba? Never heard that brought up before.
The manga Goku clearly said even trunks here can handle Zamasu and I vaguely remember something similar being indicated in the anime too, he was supposed to be weaker than Trunks and Mafuba not killing him kind of proved the point..

Yes, that's an actual rule..
When you are in a similar ballpark of strength, you don't die using the Mafuba, see Kami trying it out on Piccolo, but you do die when the opponent is out if your league, see Roshi trying it out on Piccolo..
Damn piccolo gets Mafubad a lot

Until I actually see some official documentation or something officially said in the anime or manga regarding that, it's not a rule and it sounds like headcanon to me until proven otherwise.
Sure man, go ahead and search it up..
I can't provide you a source because I learnt it such a long time ago I have no idea where to find it now..
Maybe another member will be kind enough to provide the source..
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Lord Frieza » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:38 pm

Tombstone1988 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
precita wrote:Kale knocked out that lizard guy in one punch makes no difference though, there was no way to gauge his power.
Not talking about him, I'm talking about th the fact it took SSB Kale (who's power is on a godly level) and SS2 Cauli to beat 4 of the Troopers in a beam struggle and Cocotte's powers were enough to tank the blast. Then it took Goku going SSb to be able to bumrush through Kunshi's threads.

So going by that just one of the Pride Troopers could have ended the entire Android arc on their own. Hell thats proabably just a days work for them.
I half-agree and half-disagree with you. I think Kunshi is definitely stronger than the other six, but Kahseral and his men are likely somewhere around Perfect Cell level individually (which technically makes them capable of the feats you describe), maybe slightly stronger. This arc has put a big emphasis on teamwork and coordination having massive advantages, even if it doesn't always portray that properly. Individually, the wolf trio couldn't do anything to Goku and Vegeta, but together? Well, you need a SSB Final Kamehameha to overpower that. Same thing likely applies to their "United Justice Stream." 18 also quite easily dispatched Tupper and 17 didn't seem to be having much trouble with Kahseral. I find it very hard to believe that 18 is somehow massively stronger than she was back in the Buu saga; stronger, yes, but not exponentially so.

Really though, the biggest determining factor is Caulifla. Kettle pretty much destroyed base Caulifla, so the question is how strong is base Caulifla? If she's weaker than base Goku, then everything I said likely applies. If she's supposed to be about equal to base Goku, though, then things get confusing.
since your willing to meet me half way, its only fair I do the same.

Ok just to get a few points of the way first so you see were I'm comeing from and we get more common ground.

Ok so what I'm gonna do is give a rough power scaleing for the whole team based on how I see it. The points to go over first, A) I think we can agree that not all the Pride Troopers are equal. B) the majority of their fights pit them against what amounts to some of the strongest warriors in the whole tournamant so they are not going to give the best showing. C) Super, like it or hate it, dose wabble the power scaling from time to time and for the build up to the tournamant the majority of the cast trained and got stronger, how realistic that is and to what digree is not part of the debate but I mention it so that if my views dont quite add up with yours we can at least pin down that particuler issue when it crops up from the get go. D) This is all done with rough estimastion since exact power scaleing by numbers is really not possible at this stage.

Ok so...

Jiren - Nothing need to be said here. Jiren is depicted as the most powerful fighter in the tournamant. His level can easily be said to be above that of the god tier fighters.

Toppo - God Tier, while the full extent of his power is unknow he battled well against SSB Goku without using his full power. He's likely on the same level as Hit and Goku.

Dyspo - While not quit as powerful as Toppo, he's strong enough to hurt Hit. His speed is the real danger though as he can run circles round fghters who are stronger then himself although his fighting skill is very basic.

Kunshi - Likely the fourth strongest. Goku powered up to Blue so he could charge through his traps, so its possible that they can damage SSG. However he do not seem fast enough to counter Goku or Hits attacks directly and when he dose grab Hit its when Hit is not paying attention to him. I'd say he's not quit in the god tier.

Kahseral - The middle guy. What makes this hard it that he only fights #17, who we know is a god tier fighter. That makes things hard to judge. However I personally say Kahseral may be in the range between that of current Goku's SS and SS2 forms. Thats based soley on the fact #17 chose to use his barrior to block the justice bomber and went on guard when it looked like Kahseral may attack again. That implies to me that #17 takes Kahseral somewhat seruesly even though he can catch his blades with his bear hands. Kahseral has to be about that level in power for that to be the case.

Kettol - This is based on were I judge Cauli to be. Going by her fight/spar with Goku, SS2 Cauli can keep pace with him nicely enough though I dont think she could beat him. Since Kettol can easily handle her in base close her and Goku's SS forms at most but thats a very genurses estimastion.

Zoiray - One thats a little easier to guess at, this little guy I put at the mid to upper Buu Saga range. This is due to him being able to hurt but not visible damage Goku, who base from was powerful enough to deal with Gotenks inbetween the F and Black arcs if his battle with Copy-Vegeta is any indicastion, while Goku was unable to defend himself. He's also powerful enough to block blasts from base Goku and #18 while spinning.

Cocotte - Ok so we com to the weak ones While her abilites allow her to block attacks from SSB Kale and SS2 Cauli, this is not a good way to messure her power. Much like her evil counterpart Guildo, he abilites are sperate from her ki. In terms of real power she's shown fighting #18 but is clealry the weaker of the two although its not too one sided. So this one boils down to were you place #18. This is hard but I view her as much stronger then any of the pure humans and on a similer level to Piccolo, with Piccolo being the stronger of the two. With that in mind I place Cocotte in at early Buu saga which blends to a digree with the upper android arcs best.

Tupper - Probably on a similer level with Cocotte or likely weaker. Tupper, like her, has abilites that exceed his power level. I base this on his clashs with #18 and Goku. Since Tupper did not begin to sink into the ring after jumping off Goku, its a safe bet that his weight power are only active when his red aura is but he dose have some weigh increase when in his pertified form since it was enough to cause a damaged part of the ring to colapse. Since his power was not active when he attacked #18, when he was thrown at her by Zoiray he hit #18 with his own power and base mass of his rock form yet did not hurt he at all. So he's in the upper part of the android arc.

Vuon - as you said their is no way to judge his power.
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by OLKv3 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:25 pm

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Hit!! » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:56 pm

I'm afraid my theory might be turning out to be true. What we are seing now is manga Goku.. The manga is currently being adapted into the Anime, which also explains all the filler and padding.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Akyon » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:05 pm

One issue I've been having with Super was highlighted in this episode;

When Hit fought Goku in the rematch, Goku's clever answer to overcoming such a tricky ability was just...power up and hammer away some more. To overcome the clever trap set out by Dyspo's partner this week he...powers up and just runs through it. Is it just me or is this the most boring, unimaginative and idiotic way to dealing with unique abilities?

Apart from that, good episode. Dyspo managed to briefly make Universe 11 look vaguely competent alongside his team mate, although maybe it's time Toppo and Jiren stopped standing around doing jack shit and teamed up to take Goku down already when there's only the three of them left.
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Simere » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:47 pm

Akyon wrote:Is it just me or is this the most boring, unimaginative and idiotic way to dealing with unique abilities?
Boring and unimaginative, YMMV. Idiotic? Absolutely not.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:48 pm

Hit got exposed this episode. It showed that he couldn't match Dyspo speed for speed. He got so desperate he resorted to tricks.
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:51 pm

Miracles wrote:Hit got exposed this episode. It showed that he couldn't match Dyspo speed for speed. He got so desperate he resorted to tricks.
Hit actually was very smart in dealing with Dyspo's speed. If anything, it shows that's when backed up into wall, Hit can use intelligence was outwit his opponents and beat them.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:03 pm

Hit!! wrote:I'm afraid my theory might be turning out to be true. What we are seing now is manga Goku.. The manga is currently being adapted into the Anime, which also explains all the filler and padding.
Why is that a bad thing?
Even if it us being taken as a reference, the manga is great and it's not like every single thing is being adapted..
There are differences, like Vegeta straight up telling Goku he is a bad father.. Seriously Vegeta, you do not have the right to tell someone that..
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Hit!! » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:46 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
Hit!! wrote:I'm afraid my theory might be turning out to be true. What we are seing now is manga Goku.. The manga is currently being adapted into the Anime, which also explains all the filler and padding.
Why is that a bad thing?
Even if it us being taken as a reference, the manga is great and it's not like every single thing is being adapted..
There are differences, like Vegeta straight up telling Goku he is a bad father.. Seriously Vegeta, you do not have the right to tell someone that..
Actually it's a good thing. Yeah i know, the way i worded it was as if it was something bad, but in my opinion it's not. I think it should've been like this from the start!!

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:00 am

Hit!! wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
Hit!! wrote:I'm afraid my theory might be turning out to be true. What we are seing now is manga Goku.. The manga is currently being adapted into the Anime, which also explains all the filler and padding.
Why is that a bad thing?
Even if it us being taken as a reference, the manga is great and it's not like every single thing is being adapted..
There are differences, like Vegeta straight up telling Goku he is a bad father.. Seriously Vegeta, you do not have the right to tell someone that..
Actually it's a good thing. Yeah i know, the way i worded it was as if it was something bad, but in my opinion it's not. I think it should've been like this from the start!!
Most certainly, between Toie and Toyotaro the one who captures Dragonball's feeling the best is the latter..
After super's run I wouldn't mind having the manga animated either.. Though the chances of it happening are slim..
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by BigBangAttack » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:03 am

My simple reaction: Of course the show has to have Goku pioneering a technique that Vegeta created in the manga. I mean, why wouldn't he? Anything Vegeta or anyone else does, Goku can do first and better, right? :problem:
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Pluto » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:14 am

BigBangAttack wrote:My simple reaction: Of course the show has to have Goku pioneering a technique that Vegeta created in the manga. I mean, why wouldn't he? Anything Vegeta or anyone else does, Goku can do first and better, right? :problem:

Remember, the show started with Goku, he even tapped Bulmas p*^%^ way before Vegeta had the chance to, or even Yamcha.
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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:18 am

BigBangAttack wrote:My simple reaction: Of course the show has to have Goku pioneering a technique that Vegeta created in the manga. I mean, why wouldn't he? Anything Vegeta or anyone else does, Goku can do first and better, right? :problem:
I recall the manga stating that Vegeta got the idea from Goku doing it once back in his fight with Hitto. Technically, Goku did it first.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:26 am

Jigurashi wrote:
BigBangAttack wrote:My simple reaction: Of course the show has to have Goku pioneering a technique that Vegeta created in the manga. I mean, why wouldn't he? Anything Vegeta or anyone else does, Goku can do first and better, right? :problem:
I recall the manga stating that Vegeta got the idea from Goku doing it once back in his fight with Hitto. Technically, Goku did it first.
Yeah, Goku says it was the same thing he did against Hit in Ch.22.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:28 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
BigBangAttack wrote:My simple reaction: Of course the show has to have Goku pioneering a technique that Vegeta created in the manga. I mean, why wouldn't he? Anything Vegeta or anyone else does, Goku can do first and better, right? :problem:
I recall the manga stating that Vegeta got the idea from Goku doing it once back in his fight with Hitto. Technically, Goku did it first.
Yeah, Goku says it was the same thing he did against Hit in Ch.22.
Since that's the case, I don't see why people are complaining and getting some type of way because Goku showcases it first in the anime when he pretty much did it first in the manga also.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by Asura » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:27 pm

Akyon wrote:When Hit fought Goku in the rematch, Goku's clever answer to overcoming such a tricky ability was just...power up and hammer away some more. To overcome the clever trap set out by Dyspo's partner this week he...powers up and just runs through it. Is it just me or is this the most boring, unimaginative and idiotic way to dealing with unique abilities?
I'm still not even sure I understood what happened. Why/how was Goku just able to charge through like that completely unharmed? He just Leeroy'd through the whole thing without even so much as a scratch. Is there some ultra tank mode ability that SSB has I'm unaware of?

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:42 pm

Asura wrote:I'm still not even sure I understood what happened. Why/how was Goku just able to charge through like that completely unharmed? He just Leeroy'd through the whole thing without even so much as a scratch. Is there some ultra tank mode ability that SSB has I'm unaware of?
Goku's lack of battle damage is bothering me too. He's been in how many fights now? Kale ragdolled him and slammed him through mountains, Toppo buried him in the ground, Rozie and Dyspo both landed some hits on him and he isn't even scuffed! It wouldn't have been so noticeable if they hadn't shown him next to Hit and Caulifla who were both scratched up from one fight each.

I've been meaning to check the last couple arcs again to compare but I keep forgetting.

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Re: Super Episode 104 (20 August 2017)

Post by gofishus » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:38 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Asura wrote:I'm still not even sure I understood what happened. Why/how was Goku just able to charge through like that completely unharmed? He just Leeroy'd through the whole thing without even so much as a scratch. Is there some ultra tank mode ability that SSB has I'm unaware of?
Goku's lack of battle damage is bothering me too. He's been in how many fights now? Kale ragdolled him and slammed him through mountains, Toppo buried him in the ground, Rozie and Dyspo both landed some hits on him and he isn't even scuffed! It wouldn't have been so noticeable if they hadn't shown him next to Hit and Caulifla who were both scratched up from one fight each.

I've been meaning to check the last couple arcs again to compare but I keep forgetting.
Super's animation in general is not as 'gritty' as DBZ I find... the whole aesthetic is way more toned down for kids. I remember I showed a few episodes of Super to my DBZ fan friend and he said 'who drew this? why do they all look like kids?' the art style as a whole is quite different tonally than DBZ... u won't find much blood in Super if at all..

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