Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

[mAcChaos]

This episode was rather touching. I loved Roshi's pseudo death scene.

I was like "great, not again" when we saw yet another ki sword, but the girl with the hammer, and the illusionist were both good.

Goten and Trunks were way too straightforward compared to Roshi in the sense that they wouldn't be able to figure out tricky opponents and easily get beat by people that were weaker than them. Roshi on the other hand is weak but smart enough to ring out people stronger than him. That's the difference.

[omaro34]

Great episode. Much better than I expected it would be. After seeing episode 89 which involved Roshi I thought it would be another episode filled with gags, glad I was wrong.

I always liked Roshi, I like him even more after this episode. Great showing, earning the respect of Beerus, using different strategic attacks like the Mafuba and hypnosis against stronger opposition, the big signature original kamehameha wave, and the emotional scene with him nearly dying and his students reacting. Awesome stuff.

Whis didn't say a word this episode, and normally he's the commentator, just something I noticed.

Goku showing emotion was great to see. He gets too much flack for being too selfish and it's good to show that he truly cares about his former Master. Good episode overall.

[Asura]

Are you guys forgetting the fact that Goku was fighting Ganos equally, and then Roshi was fighting Ganos equally, even defeating him after he became much more powerful than that? Goku could have been holding back for sure, but don't forget Roshi's comment about how Ganos could quickly become trouble for Goku and the others. It at least implies Roshi is somewhere near base Goku levels. And sure you might say "but he was holding back!" but honestly, someone go ahead and post that "holding backs per day" graph, cause that's all I gotta say about that. Literally a meme at this point. Can't even gauge anyone's power anymore because of that nonsense.

If Goku wants to hold back every single time he's in base form, then that automatically becomes the comparison and the new standard.

[Ki Breaker]

Roshi has come out of retirement in true sense accepted this isn't his end and he has a future..
Even Berrus asks for Roshi's name, as far as I remember he hasn't done so for anyone other than Goku ( and maybe Vegeta )..

[HeroR]

Are you guys forgetting the fact that Goku was fighting Ganos equally, and then Roshi was fighting Ganos equally, even defeating him after he became much more powerful than that? Goku could have been holding back for sure, but don't forget Roshi's comment about how Ganos could quickly become trouble for Goku and the others. It at least implies Roshi is somewhere near base Goku levels. And sure you might say "but he was holding back!" but honestly, someone go ahead and post that "holding backs per day" graph, cause that's all I gotta say about that. Literally a meme at this point. Can't even gauge anyone's power anymore because of that nonsense.

If Goku wants to hold back every single time he's in base form, then that automatically becomes the comparison and the new standard.

So Roshi can tank a blast from Piccolo who previously strangled Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and fight Slim Buu?

He much also be way stronger than Krillin since it was said in Episode 84 that Krillin was weaker than base form Gohan, before he trained with Piccolo and got way stronger.

I haven't seen Goku give a shit about someone like that since he was a kid.

You mean besides him going ham on Nappa for killing friends, Frieza killing Krillin, and then Black and Zamasu for killing an alternate version of his family?

[Nickolaidas]

So Roshi can tank a blast from Piccolo who previously strangled Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and fight Slim Buu?

Easily.

[HeroR]

I haven't seen Goku give a shit about someone like that since he was a kid.

Yeah, Super is pretty awful at giving Goku character development or sometimes even with writing him in character, but this is finally some legitimate development. I always really wondered how Goku felt about Master Roshi, if he just viewed him as a friend and master or as more like a father, and I was happy to see it confirmed in this episode it's more like the latter which is especially telling given Goku doesn't really even show that kind of emotion towards his actual family.

You just have to watched the King Piccolo Saga to know that and he wanted to kill Black for murdering an alternate version of his family.

[Jigurashi]

Are you guys forgetting the fact that Goku was fighting Ganos equally, and then Roshi was fighting Ganos equally, even defeating him after he became much more powerful than that? Goku could have been holding back for sure, but don't forget Roshi's comment about how Ganos could quickly become trouble for Goku and the others. It at least implies Roshi is somewhere near base Goku levels. And sure you might say "but he was holding back!" but honestly, someone go ahead and post that "holding backs per day" graph, cause that's all I gotta say about that. Literally a meme at this point. Can't even gauge anyone's power anymore because of that nonsense.

If Goku wants to hold back every single time he's in base form, then that automatically becomes the comparison and the new standard.

More like Goku and Ganos barely fought each other and when they did, Base Goku had the advantage on Ganos who was on the defensive. The same Base Goku that one-shotted Roshi in episode 89 and the same Base Goku that stalemated a post-88 Base Gohan. Kuririn pressured Base Goku enough to go SSJ, something Roshi failed to do. Roshi isn't close to Base Goku's level at all.

[namekiansaiyan]

That was the kind of Roshi I expected and he took out 3 opponents by himself. That leaves 40 fighters left and 31 not from Universe 7 so there should be big and better fights happening all the time.

Is it really going to be Goku and Vegeta next episode taking out the Universe 2 guy? It should be Piccolo and Gohan as they are the fighters that are being targeted.

[emperior]

Great episode. Master Roshi is truly an awesome character, I'm really glad Toriyama wanted him in the tournament.
The moment he was supposedly dead was emotional. I liked seeing how much Goku and Krillin respect him. Well, they still wear the Kame orange gi to this day, so it's clear that Master Roshi will be their true master forever.
Also, he couldn't have stayed dead after the Kamehameha because it means they wouldn't be able to resurrect him, because in this case it would have been natural death, and Roshi is in EoZ.

[HeroR]

More like Goku and Ganos barely fought each other and when they did, Base Goku had the advantage on Ganos who was on the defensive. The same Base Goku that one-shotted Roshi in episode 89 and the same Base Goku that stalemated a post-88 Base Gohan. Kuririn pressured Base Goku enough to go SSJ, something Roshi failed to do. Roshi isn't close to Base Goku's level at all.

Indeed. Roshi is strong, but putting his on or near base form Goku goes against what the show have told us since, again, Krillin was stated to be weaker than a pre-88 base form Gohan and Krillin is officially 'the stronger human'. And putting Roshi near base form Goku would make him stronger than Piccolo and Slim Buu.

Great episode. Master Roshi is truly an awesome character, I'm really glad Toriyama wanted him in the tournament.
The moment he was supposedly dead was emotional. I liked seeing how much Goku and Krillin respect him. Well, they still wear the Kame orange gi to this day, so it's clear that Master Roshi will be their true master forever.
Also, he couldn't have stayed dead after the Kamehameha because it means they wouldn't be able to resurrect him, because in this case it would have been natural death, and Roshi is in EoZ.

No it wouldn't. Roshi would have died from exhaustion like Tien in the Saiyan Saga, who was revived.

[HeroR]

Kind of hilarious to me that the same criticism leveled against Goten and Trunks for being too straightforward was placed on the U7 team en masse by its supposedly weakest member.

Yeah, and they're even more straightforward than the other fighters. So that would hurt the team.

[Basako]

Ok episode for me, not great. I think it had some problems and better possibilities.

Three solo eliminations for Roshi, he got much love today! Even if it was a Roshi centric, I liked how they showed a bit of other battles, like the big robot against the blue thingy, Goku with Maji Kayo or a bit of Magetta around. They should have been doing this more, much more.

The battle against Caway was fine enough, she uses ki weapons and her beauty, but Roshi has overcome that. Roshi going muscular in here was pointless and a waste. I didn't like Caway getting out by herself, it should have been fighting. I'm sure Roshi could have found a way to do it gently.

Next Dercori. Roshi thinks her way of fighting could be a problem, even for the strongest, so he goes with the Mafuba. I trust his judgment. He uses a bottle, Zeno allows it. Couldn't he just use the Mafuba to direct her out of the ring? Well, not a big deal. The thing is his stamina goes down, but he doesn't die, Dercori wasn't that powerful, just a good sorceress.

Finally comes Ganos, here I see power level problems. We saw Goku fighting this guy, Goku in base fought final form Freeza in Namek, while Roshi decided not to fight the saiyans, so what about his experience back then? This triggers my PL alarms, can't help it. If they had showed Ganos fighting Krilin or Tenshinhan that first time, instead of Goku. Aside from this, Ganos transforms from the begining, they could have fought a bit in base first, then Ganos would transform after seeing Roshi was stronger than he thought. Same for Roshi, after Ganos takes advantage, he could transform into his muscular form, that would have been nice to see. The Kamehameha fine, it's his signature technique and of all DB. Him almost dying, a bit of drama, whatever. I missed Tenshinhan in this part. Hey, Roshi is still in, quite powerless, but in the middle of the stage.

For the NEP, it's not the bugs attacking Gohan and Piccolo, its a sniper from U2, even better. What will Tenshinhan do to defend from that? We'll see.

[SuperHumanGod]

By far the best episode of the ToP arc so far. Loved every minute of it! Roshis epic footwork/skills, using his vast array of techniques and taking out 3 enemies. The fact he remains in the tournament gives me hope for even Roshi goodness.

[HeroR]

Oh I know, I didn't mean to imply I thought every fighter should be Cell-level or above. If the first half of this episode had been Roshi vs. Darkori and the second half replaced Ganos with Caway, I think it would have been a better episode overall. It's the fact that Ganos, the captain of Universe 4 (who should be one of if not the strongest member of their team) was chosen to go up against Roshi (supposedly the weakest member of Universe 7) that really irks me. This implies that Universe 4 is so weak overall that even their team captain is fodder. That, to me, doesn't make for very interesting storytelling.

Ganos was never called the captain of U4 or even the strongest. Where are you getting this from?

[mAcChaos]

Are you guys forgetting the fact that Goku was fighting Ganos equally, and then Roshi was fighting Ganos equally, even defeating him after he became much more powerful than that? Goku could have been holding back for sure, but don't forget Roshi's comment about how Ganos could quickly become trouble for Goku and the others. It at least implies Roshi is somewhere near base Goku levels. And sure you might say "but he was holding back!" but honestly, someone go ahead and post that "holding backs per day" graph, cause that's all I gotta say about that. Literally a meme at this point. Can't even gauge anyone's power anymore because of that nonsense.

If Goku wants to hold back every single time he's in base form, then that automatically becomes the comparison and the new standard.

You have to let go of comparing power levels like DBZ. Super is basically its own separate thing. It's never going to be the same.

[Tombstone1988]

Are you guys forgetting the fact that Goku was fighting Ganos equally, and then Roshi was fighting Ganos equally, even defeating him after he became much more powerful than that? Goku could have been holding back for sure, but don't forget Roshi's comment about how Ganos could quickly become trouble for Goku and the others. It at least implies Roshi is somewhere near base Goku levels. And sure you might say "but he was holding back!" but honestly, someone go ahead and post that "holding backs per day" graph, cause that's all I gotta say about that. Literally a meme at this point. Can't even gauge anyone's power anymore because of that nonsense.

If Goku wants to hold back every single time he's in base form, then that automatically becomes the comparison and the new standard.

Let's think about this logically. Goku in base form has been shown sparring with Buu (an extremely powerful character), landing a few hits on Hit, going toe-to-toe with a powered-up final form Freeza, and tanking a powerful ki explosion from Piccolo, who previously defeated SSJ2 Gohan. These are feats astronomically higher than anything Roshi in DBZ would be capable of. Between the end of the Buu Saga and this tournament, it's been approximately six years (not 100% on that, but the exact amount is largely irrelevant). If what you say is true (that is, Roshi is on par with base Goku), then Roshi, an old human man, has become greater-than-Buu Saga level in that amount of time. That would likely be the BIGGEST jump in power in the history of the show. Scaled per time, that would mean if he had trained for Nappa and Vegeta's arrival, he would have easily stomped them when they arrived. If he had trained from the end of the Cell Games to the start of the Buu Saga, he could have stopped Buu himself. Both of those ideas seem ridiculous to me.

So no, I don't think Roshi is base Goku level. I think Ganos is Roshi-level, which is one of my main gripes with the episode.

[Lionel]

I know it isn't canon but the original Dragon Ball did flirt with the idea of seasoned martial artists who are up there in years still having room to grow with Tao Pai Pai climbing Karin's tower and improving somewhat as a result. Roshi actually managed to improve himself in the manga between the 21st and 22nd tournaments. Granted, the margin was diminutively small next to what we're seeing now.

Roshi making radical gains might have a firmer basis if we knew what kind of training he underwent. Is there any information about the kind of modus operandi he uses besides a secret training room underneath his house? Maybe if we had caught a glimpse of Roshi donning some 4500 kilo weights and training rigorously like the ones used by Goku in preparation for the 25th tournament we could better understand how this came to be.

[Tombstone1988]

Oh I know, I didn't mean to imply I thought every fighter should be Cell-level or above. If the first half of this episode had been Roshi vs. Darkori and the second half replaced Ganos with Caway, I think it would have been a better episode overall. It's the fact that Ganos, the captain of Universe 4 (who should be one of if not the strongest member of their team) was chosen to go up against Roshi (supposedly the weakest member of Universe 7) that really irks me. This implies that Universe 4 is so weak overall that even their team captain is fodder. That, to me, doesn't make for very interesting storytelling.

Ganos was never called the captain of U4 or even the strongest. Where are you getting this from?

I remember seeing a few listings of him as the team captain. However, after reading this comment, I went back and checked it out a little more closely. A few videos on Youtube had him listed as the captain and his positioning in some screenshots (being in the upper-left position, usually the indication of the team captain) had me believe he was. Upon further inspection though, there is no official listing of him as the team captain and his roster position in episode 102 (when the Omni King scrolls through the universes) is upper-center, which is not usually the captain. So in fact, you may be right and I may have been under false assumptions. I still think he was made out to be way too weak this episode, but I do admit I was likely wrong on the team captain thing.

[Kishido]

LOL Grand Priest