Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Whatever » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:28 pm

Zagacious wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Zagacious wrote:[

It's more because the show ignores it's own context, character statements, and techniques. The Krillin and 17 ones are probably the least complained about, so it's funny you'd mention those two, even if the way they represented it was poor , most reasonable people just assume Goku was holding back then. I'm not going to go into all the examples here because it would be too lengthy, but bringing up the least inconsistent examples just to make it look like everything in Super is actually consistent is just not true.
You mean posters like you who downplay 17 and claim that he isn't near Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku despite Goku saying he was pushed to that form, and both him and 17 were hiding back?

Outside of some wackiness, Super is nowhere near as inconsistent as some believe.
The show is also very inconsistent between what the characters say and what is actually represented in the action. For example this last episode between Roshi and Ganos where Ganos constantly says "I should be more powerful!" etc to make it seem like Roshi is really winning with strategy, when really he was just faster and more powerful than Ganos even when he was transformed. See my previous post for a timeline showing the battle because I'm sick of people just saying "It's not inconsistent" or Roshi won with strategy" without giving a single example.

Roshi vs Ganos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVg3FEVMAMA

1:15 - Roshi strikes Ganos as he approaches him, clear show of outpowering him.
1:30 - Roshi shows superior speed and Ganos cannot even touch him
1:50 - Roshi again shows superior speed and dodges Ganos' attack
2:15 - Roshi blasts Ganos while he's on the ground
2:45 - Roshi shows superior speed and is dodging most of Ganos' attacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxRvTv8_iyQ

0:45 - Roshi uses hypnotism, Ganos falls out of hypnotism within a few seconds and provides no benefit to Roshi
1:30 - Roshi is knocked down by Ganos briefly
2:30 - Roshi uses Kamehameha and overpowers Ganos
Roshi did the same thing base Goku did against Hit,he predicted Gano's attacks.
Surpressed Hit was still stronger and faster than base Goku,yet Goku still made him bleed.
Ganos was stronger and faster than Roshi as both he and Ganos himself stated.
When Roshi uses hypnotism,Ganos damaged himself to snap out of it(this is more important than you give it credit for as Ganos took damage).

Roshi did not overpower Ganos,he outdamaged him.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Ranmaru Rei » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:31 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I always thought that your just needed to have a really powerful base form to be able to access the SSJ form. Whether Caulifla trained to be that strong or is just that naturally powerful to begin with remains uncertain.
I believe, for SSJ power is not much relevant. It is like Kamehameha. Muten Roshi spent 50 years to create this technique. How much time did Goku spend to learn Kamehameha after he saw it? Goku is in fact with SSJ in the same boat as Roshi was with Kamehameha.
Also, it was stated that after first time, go to SSJ is easy. Just remember the feeling, it does not reqired emotions as it was in first time. Califla just found how Saiyans go SSJ after they obtain this form.
Last edited by Ranmaru Rei on Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by HeroR » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:32 pm

Zagacious wrote:
The show is also very inconsistent between what the characters say and what is actually represented in the action. For example this last episode between Roshi and Ganos where Ganos constantly says "I should be more powerful!" and Roshi replies with 'but I have more experience" etc to make it seem like Roshi is really winning with strategy, when inconsistenteally he was just faster and more powerful than Ganos even when he was transformed. See my previous post for a timeline showing the battle because I'm sick of people just saying "It's not inconsistent" or Roshi won with strategy" without giving a single example.

Roshi vs Ganos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVg3FEVMAMA

1:15 - Roshi strikes Ganos as he approaches him, clear show of outpowering him.
1:30 - Roshi shows superior speed and Ganos cannot even touch him
1:50 - Roshi again shows superior speed and dodges Ganos' attack
2:15 - Roshi blasts Ganos while he's on the ground
2:45 - Roshi shows superior speed and is dodging most of Ganos' attacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxRvTv8_iyQ

0:45 - Roshi uses hypnotism, Ganos falls out of hypnotism within a few seconds and provides no benefit to Roshi
1:30 - Roshi is knocked down by Ganos briefly
2:30 - Roshi uses Kamehameha and Ganos fires some electrical energy beams, Roshi's Kamehameha overpowers Ganos
The bolded is your assumption.

He didn't strike. He redirect an attack because it was easy to read.

Genos is a predictable chicken who kept using the same attack patter and hoping for a different result.

Roshi's blast just knocked Genos back with cause no real damage and the Kamehameha only worked because Roshi went past his limits and nearly died.

Literally all these 'inconsistencies' are explained in the episode. You just chose not to believe them, which isn't the show's problem.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Zagacious » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Whatever wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
HeroR wrote:
You mean posters like you who downplay 17 and claim that he isn't near Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku despite Goku saying he was pushed to that form, and both him and 17 were hiding back?

Outside of some wackiness, Super is nowhere near as inconsistent as some believe.
The show is also very inconsistent between what the characters say and what is actually represented in the action. For example this last episode between Roshi and Ganos where Ganos constantly says "I should be more powerful!" etc to make it seem like Roshi is really winning with strategy, when really he was just faster and more powerful than Ganos even when he was transformed. See my previous post for a timeline showing the battle because I'm sick of people just saying "It's not inconsistent" or Roshi won with strategy" without giving a single example.

Roshi vs Ganos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVg3FEVMAMA

1:15 - Roshi strikes Ganos as he approaches him, clear show of outpowering him.
1:30 - Roshi shows superior speed and Ganos cannot even touch him
1:50 - Roshi again shows superior speed and dodges Ganos' attack
2:15 - Roshi blasts Ganos while he's on the ground
2:45 - Roshi shows superior speed and is dodging most of Ganos' attacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxRvTv8_iyQ

0:45 - Roshi uses hypnotism, Ganos falls out of hypnotism within a few seconds and provides no benefit to Roshi
1:30 - Roshi is knocked down by Ganos briefly
2:30 - Roshi uses Kamehameha and overpowers Ganos
Roshi did the same thing base Goku did against Hit,he predicted Gano's attacks.
Surpressed Hit was still stronger and faster than base Goku,yet Goku still made him bleed.
Ganos was stronger and faster than Roshi as both he and Ganos himself stated.
When Roshi uses hypnotism,Ganos damaged himself to snap out of it(this is more important than you give it credit for as Ganos took damage).

Roshi did not overpower Ganos,he outdamaged him.
It's quite a bit different than what he did with Hit, that took way more actual strategy. A person's speed also contributes to their power, and that is mostly what he used to win the fight. Predicting a time skip is vastly more difficult than predicting someone's going to attack you who is running straight at you and is moving in obvious patterns.

1:15 Ganos is 'flying?' right at him and Roshi just strikes him away, there's no prediction needed he just swatted him away, this is the same for every other time Ganos just heads straight to Roshi and Roshi dodges, it's sheer speed not strategy, it's not like Ganos is moving incredibly fast. Ganos can barely even land a blow on him.

Ganos struck himself, but he was pretty much already defeated at this point, he can't even hit Roshi and he is constantly wasting his energy.

Again, the things they stated are confusing you, because the things they said almost completely contradict what actually happened. Ganos may be above Roshi in raw power alone, but Roshi's speed is definitely far above Ganos. Even in close sparring Ganos only hits him once or twice in the entire battle, Roshi is easily dodging all attacks. That's more pure speed than strategy at that distance. It's not like a time skip where an accurate prediction of when they're going to use a specific move is needed to counter it. Roshi just moved out of the way because he is faster. If you watch the entire episode without reading the subs you will see what I mean.

Their intentions very well may have been to have strategy win over power, based on the characters' comments, but what is actually shown is Roshi outclassing him in not just speed, but also power in most instances. It's one of many cases in Super where the characters' statements only confuse the viewers more because it contradicts what is actually displayed in the episode.
Last edited by Zagacious on Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:44 pm

HeroR wrote:
Zagacious wrote:[

It's more because the show ignores it's own context, character statements, and techniques. The Krillin and 17 ones are probably the least complained about, so it's funny you'd mention those two, even if the way they represented it was poor , most reasonable people just assume Goku was holding back then. I'm not going to go into all the examples here because it would be too lengthy, but bringing up the least inconsistent examples just to make it look like everything in Super is actually consistent is just not true.
You mean posters like you who downplay 17 and claim that he isn't near Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku despite Goku saying he was pushed to that form, and both him and 17 were hiding back?

Outside of some wackiness, Super is nowhere near as inconsistent as some believe.
Oh sure, no where near inconsistent at all. I mean first we had the whole Tagoma/Ginyu thing, then the entirety of the Goku Black arc in which Goku > Vegeta > Trunks but then also Vegeta > Goku > Trunks but also sometimes when we feel like it Trunks > Goku > Vegeta. Having it hard to tell the difference in strength between Goku and Vegeta isn't the issue here, it's how Trunks can magically keep upstaging them. Then we have Trunks beating Fused Zamasu, the strongest character in the entire universe (aside from Vegetto) with a technique that was never ever taught to him. And hey let's not forget Goku's Kamehameha beating back and inflicting major damage on Fused Zamasu where both Trunks and Vegeta AT THE SAME TIME could not do.

This show is PLAGUED with inconsistencies. This arc is much, much better in that regard but the fact that the words "holding back" are still continuously ringing in our ears should imply that something is still quite fucked with the power scaling that you have to make up the same excuse every single time something happens that looks like an inconsistency. Every single time. And I'm sure that he is holding back in a lot of those situations, but using that as a get out of jail free card every time something pops up? Yeah, quite indicative of something.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:12 pm

JazzMazz wrote:Something I think people are missing about this episode, was that Roshi was overcoming his opponents through wit, being creepy, or using their own superior power against them like with Ganos.
It's pretty clearly established in the fight, that Ganos is way out of Roshi's league in terms of pure power, Roshi is simply out-classing him by using his predictable movements against him.
I don't see how that's so hard to understand? The combat was more based around skill than how physically powerful the characters were in relation to one another.
Now see, if this were still pre-King Piccolo Saga Dragon Ball, I'd be on-board with you. However, Dragon Ball Super is a continuation of Dragon Ball Z. And in DBZ, it was established that if fighter A is significantly stronger than fighter B, their attacks are basically worthless. Examples include all of the Z-Fighters vs. Nappa, Jeice and Burter vs. Goku, Vegeta vs. Freeza, Krillin vs. Cell, the Z-Fighters vs. Super Perfect Cell, and so on. Therefore, if Ganos was indeed "out of Roshi's league in terms of pure power," then Roshi shouldn't have been able to do anything to him. Therefore, one of two things has to be true:

1.) Ganos isn't that much stronger than Roshi/they're relatively close in power
-or-
2.) Dragon Ball Super has discarded the rules of its establishing show

If it's case 1, then that's fine, but they really shouldn't have had Ganos go up against Goku (no matter how briefly) back in episode 97. If it's case 2, well, that's a whole other can of worms.

Nickolaidas wrote:The exact same thing happens in comic books. All the time.
Okay? And? Since when did the Dragon Ball series abide by the rules of comic books? They're two different universes with two different rule sets. I'm assuming your point is that you've read a lot of comics and they break their own rules all the time, so you don't really have a problem with Dragon Ball Super doing the same thing. If so, that's cool, I respect that. I'm of a different mind set, but I can agree to disagree.
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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by kidhero1000 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:46 pm

Has anyone tried to ask Toshio on twitter what Kale's transformation is officially called by Toei?
He devolved into saying only one word. Time to hit the ol' cosmic trail.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:16 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Whatever wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
The show is also very inconsistent between what the characters say and what is actually represented in the action. For example this last episode between Roshi and Ganos where Ganos constantly says "I should be more powerful!" etc to make it seem like Roshi is really winning with strategy, when really he was just faster and more powerful than Ganos even when he was transformed. See my previous post for a timeline showing the battle because I'm sick of people just saying "It's not inconsistent" or Roshi won with strategy" without giving a single example.

Roshi vs Ganos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVg3FEVMAMA

1:15 - Roshi strikes Ganos as he approaches him, clear show of outpowering him.
1:30 - Roshi shows superior speed and Ganos cannot even touch him
1:50 - Roshi again shows superior speed and dodges Ganos' attack
2:15 - Roshi blasts Ganos while he's on the ground
2:45 - Roshi shows superior speed and is dodging most of Ganos' attacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxRvTv8_iyQ

0:45 - Roshi uses hypnotism, Ganos falls out of hypnotism within a few seconds and provides no benefit to Roshi
1:30 - Roshi is knocked down by Ganos briefly
2:30 - Roshi uses Kamehameha and overpowers Ganos
Roshi did the same thing base Goku did against Hit,he predicted Gano's attacks.
Surpressed Hit was still stronger and faster than base Goku,yet Goku still made him bleed.
Ganos was stronger and faster than Roshi as both he and Ganos himself stated.
When Roshi uses hypnotism,Ganos damaged himself to snap out of it(this is more important than you give it credit for as Ganos took damage).

Roshi did not overpower Ganos,he outdamaged him.
It's quite a bit different than what he did with Hit, that took way more actual strategy. A person's speed also contributes to their power, and that is mostly what he used to win the fight. Predicting a time skip is vastly more difficult than predicting someone's going to attack you who is running straight at you and is moving in obvious patterns.
Yes, it's far easier to out-predict the latter of which because his moving in an obvious pattern and you can thus think of the most effective, energy efficient way of dodging, the time-skip requires a lot more precision and concentration and doesn't always guarantee taking no damage as it does being able to counter.
1:15 Ganos is 'flying?' right at him and Roshi just strikes him away, there's no prediction needed he just swatted him away, this is the same for every other time Ganos just heads straight to Roshi and Roshi dodges, it's sheer speed not strategy, it's not like Ganos is moving incredibly fast. Ganos can barely even land a blow on him.
No, he got decked because he charged at Roshi blindly like an idiot, he even curses because he let his anger get the better of him and cloud his judgement.
Ganos struck himself, but he was pretty much already defeated at this point, he can't even hit Roshi and he is constantly wasting his energy.

Again, the things they stated are confusing you, because the things they said almost completely contradict what actually happened. Ganos may be above Roshi in raw power alone, but Roshi's speed is definitely far above Ganos. Even in close sparring Ganos only hits him once or twice in the entire battle, Roshi is easily dodging all attacks. That's more pure speed than strategy at that distance. It's not like a time skip where an accurate prediction of when they're going to use a specific move is needed to counter it. Roshi just moved out of the way because he is faster. If you watch the entire episode without reading the subs you will see what I mean.
Ganos had the upper-hand when he struck himself, Roshi wouldn't have needed to use Hypnosis on him the situation wasn't getting worse. Ganos was getting stronger and faster, and was landing more and more blows

Ganos is still far above Roshi in speed and power. Dodging all attacks isn't an indication of pure speed under the circumstances, you may be able to argue that he could at least sense the punches to be able to dodge them, but even despite him predicting the punches, he still got hit more and more as the fight went on. I'll re-iterate that a time-skip is harder as the results are harder to predict and it doesn't always guarentee not taking damage. Roshi was moving out of the way because Ganos was terrible at moving effectively despite being faster. Watching the episode without the sub literally defeats the point of watching the episode! You're not proving your point by not having the appriopriate information or understanding of what's going on.
Their intentions very well may have been to have strategy win over power, based on the characters' comments, but what is actually shown is Roshi outclassing him in not just speed, but also power in most instances. It's one of many cases in Super where the characters' statements only confuse the viewers more because it contradicts what is actually displayed in the episode.
What is shown, is Roshi fighting more efficiently than a physically more powerful opponent. The character statements don't contradict what is being in the episode, more it provides justicification for them.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:20 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Whatever wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
The show is also very inconsistent between what the characters say and what is actually represented in the action. For example this last episode between Roshi and Ganos where Ganos constantly says "I should be more powerful!" etc to make it seem like Roshi is really winning with strategy, when really he was just faster and more powerful than Ganos even when he was transformed. See my previous post for a timeline showing the battle because I'm sick of people just saying "It's not inconsistent" or Roshi won with strategy" without giving a single example.

Roshi vs Ganos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVg3FEVMAMA

1:15 - Roshi strikes Ganos as he approaches him, clear show of outpowering him.
1:30 - Roshi shows superior speed and Ganos cannot even touch him
1:50 - Roshi again shows superior speed and dodges Ganos' attack
2:15 - Roshi blasts Ganos while he's on the ground
2:45 - Roshi shows superior speed and is dodging most of Ganos' attacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxRvTv8_iyQ

0:45 - Roshi uses hypnotism, Ganos falls out of hypnotism within a few seconds and provides no benefit to Roshi
1:30 - Roshi is knocked down by Ganos briefly
2:30 - Roshi uses Kamehameha and overpowers Ganos
Roshi did the same thing base Goku did against Hit,he predicted Gano's attacks.
Surpressed Hit was still stronger and faster than base Goku,yet Goku still made him bleed.
Ganos was stronger and faster than Roshi as both he and Ganos himself stated.
When Roshi uses hypnotism,Ganos damaged himself to snap out of it(this is more important than you give it credit for as Ganos took damage).

Roshi did not overpower Ganos,he outdamaged him.
It's quite a bit different than what he did with Hit, that took way more actual strategy. A person's speed also contributes to their power, and that is mostly what he used to win the fight. Predicting a time skip is vastly more difficult than predicting someone's going to attack you who is running straight at you and is moving in obvious patterns.

1:15 Ganos is 'flying?' right at him and Roshi just strikes him away, there's no prediction needed he just swatted him away, this is the same for every other time Ganos just heads straight to Roshi and Roshi dodges, it's sheer speed not strategy, it's not like Ganos is moving incredibly fast. Ganos can barely even land a blow on him.

Ganos struck himself, but he was pretty much already defeated at this point, he can't even hit Roshi and he is constantly wasting his energy.

Again, the things they stated are confusing you, because the things they said almost completely contradict what actually happened. Ganos may be above Roshi in raw power alone, but Roshi's speed is definitely far above Ganos. Even in close sparring Ganos only hits him once or twice in the entire battle, Roshi is easily dodging all attacks. That's more pure speed than strategy at that distance. It's not like a time skip where an accurate prediction of when they're going to use a specific move is needed to counter it. Roshi just moved out of the way because he is faster. If you watch the entire episode without reading the subs you will see what I mean.

Their intentions very well may have been to have strategy win over power, based on the characters' comments, but what is actually shown is Roshi outclassing him in not just speed, but also power in most instances. It's one of many cases in Super where the characters' statements only confuse the viewers more because it contradicts what is actually displayed in the episode.
What the heck are you even talking about. Did you not understand the part where Roshi called out the same repeated pattern Ganos was using? The shots with his feet showing how he moves before the next strike?

Ganos was absolutely more powerful. The problem is more that you seem to not understand what happened and how.

I'm always calling the show ambiguous but it absolutely wasn't this time.
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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:57 pm

Comments on this episode:

- That guy that almost got thrown out of the arena reminds me of a Pokemon
- What about all the fighters who were moving too fast for Roshi to follow?
- Why is he speaking Magetta's language?
- Was she afraid Roshi was going to literally rape her?
- 76 and 129 - do those numbers have any special significance in Japanese mythology or something? Just wondering
- If her powers are limited to a certain number of specific illusions, why does she have ones customized for this arena (like a false arena edge)?
- So is she like the Universe 4 equivalent of Yakon, going by her backstory about her planet?
- Is Roshi really suggesting that Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza would have lost to this woman? Because I'm not seeing that happen
- He probably should have dropped the jar over the edge of the arena himself instead of throwing it, because someone might have grabbed it before it fell and let her out
- So is Krillin implying that it takes more energy to use the Mafuba on stronger enemies? I guess that makes sense, although we know it can be successful on enemies stronger than the user, so I wonder what the difference in power would have to be before it would fail?
- Ganos was keeping up with Goku in base form, and now he's gotten stronger but can't touch Roshi... I know I said that I stopped complaining about powerscaling in Super long ago, but wow
- So Ganos is like the fanboy version of Broly who is always getting stronger... or it's just implied that he keeps getting stronger because he's young and still learning
- I was honestly hoping for Ganos to knock Roshi out, he had already done enough to show he was an important member of the team, and Universe 7 needs to take more losses if we don't want this to be a rout
- So if he had died from using that attack, would anyone get disqualified?
- I'm also wondering, if someone dies in this dimension (I don't mean being erased, just dying), do they go to the afterlife of their native universe, or what?

I guess the episode was okay, but I'm getting tired of the formula that seems to be that a Universe 7 (or 6) fighter or group of fighters is attacked by an enemy (or group of enemies) that proves challening at first but the Universe 7 (or 6) fighter(s) win in the end with no losses.
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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Noah » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:45 pm

kidhero1000 wrote:Has anyone tried to ask Toshio on twitter what Kale's transformation is officially called by Toei?
This actually matters?
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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:57 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Li'l Lemmy wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: I also really like that there are more female fighters in the battle-lines. Caulifla has been one of the shining stars of this entire arc.
Caulifla is absolute shit garbage and I can't stand her "is it about the tingly back??" magical Mary Sue character writing. I realize that we need yet more saiyans all the time forever, but holy fuck do I hope we get a break from her during the next arc.

That being said, it is certainly gratifying to see that the gender balance has shifted in DragonBall, or at least during this arc. I would have been fairly dismayed if a multiverse tournament did the opposite and showed a male-centric talent pool with disproportionately few females.
Lol, I love how you can Caulifla "magical Mary Sue character writing" when that has been every Saiyan post-Namek, including your precious Goten who got SS (yet couldn't even freaking fly) for no reason other than just 'cuz, plot requirement. In fact we actually get an explanation for her going SS instead of every other time a Saiyan did it was just they did.
I may be in the wrong here, as I certainly haven't kept up with every episode of Super, but so far as I know the only explanation we get for Caulifla is the same one we get for Goten: the prodigy thing.

My problem with Caulifla and Super Saiyan is not that she got it. It's that she got it pretty much after simply hearing about it. Goten having the ability because of Plot is not necessarily better, but at least they bothered to obscure when and how he got it to lend some shred credibility to the whole thing. Caulifla getting it, then Super Saiyan 2 a few minutes later, and then Super Saiyan 3 (potentially) a day or so after is magical Mary Sue writing.

I buy that a son of Goku can accidentally(?) will himself into Super Saiyan better than I do Caulifla bowing straight into 2 or 3 Super stages in a matter of days just because Caulifla.

Mind you, I am certainly biased against Caulifla in general because she's an arrogant, selfish brat I find to be an unlikable, unpleasant character. But I try not to let it cloud my judgement too much.
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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:05 pm

Li'l Lemmy wrote: I may be in the wrong here, as I certainly haven't kept up with every episode of Super, but so far as I know the only explanation we get for Caulifla is the same one we get for Goten: the prodigy thing.

My problem with Caulifla and Super Saiyan is not that she got it. It's that she got it pretty much after simply hearing about it. Goten having the ability because of Plot is not necessarily better, but at least they bothered to obscure when and how he got it to lend some shred credibility to the whole thing. Caulifla getting it, then Super Saiyan 2 a few minutes later, and then Super Saiyan 3 (potentially) a day or so after is magical Mary Sue writing.

I buy that the son of Goten can accidentally(?) will himself into Super Saiyan better than I do Caulifla willing herself into 2 or 3 Super stages in a matter of days just because Caulifla.
Why though? From my view I don't see much difference between the two aside from Caulifla taking it further. Why is Goten getting it off screen at some point, just because, credible, but Caulifla learning it through an actual method isn't? It's a cheap method to be sure, but still.
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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Whatever » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:13 pm

Li'l Lemmy wrote: I may be in the wrong here, as I certainly haven't kept up with every episode of Super, but so far as I know the only explanation we get for Caulifla is the same one we get for Goten: the prodigy thing.

My problem with Caulifla and Super Saiyan is not that she got it. It's that she got it pretty much after simply hearing about it. Goten having the ability because of Plot is not necessarily better, but at least they bothered to obscure when and how he got it to lend some shred credibility to the whole thing. Caulifla getting it, then Super Saiyan 2 a few minutes later, and then Super Saiyan 3 (potentially) a day or so after is magical Mary Sue writing.

I buy that a son of Goku can accidentally(?) will himself into Super Saiyan better than I do Caulifla bowing straight into 2 or 3 Super stages in a matter of days just because Caulifla.

Mind you, I am certainly biased against Caulifla in general because she's an arrogant, selfish brat I find to be an unlikable, unpleasant character. But I try not to let it cloud my judgement too much.
I don't like Caulfla but i don't hate her either but i got to say thats a double standard.
Goten never even knew nor saw it before,in fact he could not even fly.Caulifla at the least was taught how to do it.
Then Gotenks got super saiyan 3(who never saw,that scene on the lookout of Goku showing super saiyan 3 to the kids is filler)in less than half a day.

If anything Goten was a way worse offender than Caulifla.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:20 pm

Boo Machine wrote:Why though? From my view I don't see much difference between the two aside from Caulifla taking it further. Why is Goten getting it off screen at some point, just because, credible, but Caulifla learning it through an actual method isn't? It's a cheap method to be sure, but still.
How it happened with Goten and Trunks is only barely credible on its face, and I say that as 100% a Goten person. I personally just happen to find it more credible that he does it by accident (I assume) due to (again, I assume) his lineage than how Caulifla is apparently the most miraculous saiyan prodigy to exist in either universe because she can fart out Super forms one after the other in rapid succession without commensurate effort moments after learning they exist at all. Goten having Super Saiyan is its own kind of bullshit, certainly, but Caulifla is on another level.
Whatever wrote:I don't like Caulfla but i don't hate her either but i got to say thats a double standard.
Goten never even knew nor saw it before,in fact he could not even fly.Caulifla at the least was taught how to do it.
Then Gotenks got super saiyan 3(who never saw,that scene on the lookout of Goku showing super saiyan 3 to the kids is filler)in less than half a day.

If anything Goten was a way worse offender than Caulifla.
We don't know how Goten actually achieved it. It could have been by accident, or maybe Trunks taught him. Who knows.

Gotenks is its own thing. He's a magical fusion, and the kids trained in the Room of Spirit of Time for a good little while to work out Super Saiyan 3.

Goten isn't running around accidentally jumping into Super Saiyan 2 on his own.

I acknowledge the appearance of a double standard. There may very well be one in my case, because I'm certainly biased. But I just don't see how Caulifla doing it isn't a much worse version of what Goten also did.
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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by Hakaishin Liquir » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:01 pm

Does anyone else find it weird that one of the ten stronger warriors from Universe 4 is being portrayed as a complete amateur when it comes to actual martial arts techniques? Shouldn't the best fighters in an entire universe be martial arts geniuses? (unless they're born with an absurdly high power level like Freeza or Buu)

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:14 pm

Hakaishin Liquir wrote:Does anyone else find it weird that one of the ten stronger warriors from Universe 4 is being portrayed as a complete amateur when it comes to actual martial arts techniques? Shouldn't the best fighters in an entire universe be martial arts geniuses? (unless they're born with an absurdly high power level like Freeza or Buu)
I think that's the point.

This is some clever out-of-universe lampshading via in-universe attitudes throughout this tournament.

The Gods of Destruction have chosen many types of warriors, some for power, some for technique, etc., and this doesn't always benefit them. They make mistakes. Ganos was a spy with high power, which is an attractive feature to have in a fighting setting, but power blinds people to other things.

As we see in this community, power blinds people to the notion of other things being important in a fight, something this episode in particular lampshaded by having Roshi beat a fighter superior to him in pure power because said fighter was too straightforward and confident in his power level. There are STILL people arguing that because Yamcha should be stronger than Roshi, he'd be a better pick in this tournament, despite this episode showing otherwise why he's not as good of a pick in comparison.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by CabbaxCaulifla » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:46 am

Li'l Lemmy wrote:[

Caulifla is absolute shit garbage and I can't stand her "is it about the tingly back??" magical Mary Sue character writing.
Well that's an opinion, a highly incorrect one. She's not a Mary Sue, if she was, she could go higher than Super Saiyan 2.

Besides, unlike Trunks and Goten, who also unlocked Super Saiyan rather easily, she did it on screen.

And unfortunately for you, most people seem to want more of the U6 Saiyans in the next arc.
Why does Vegeta writing them off as being too individually weak to participate in the tournament against U6 not lead to them training for their next chance, instead of getting dick for screentime and being excluded for two tournaments in a row?
Because individually, they're not all that great. In fact, individually they're worthless as fighters. Only as Gotenks do either even have any unique attacks.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by CabbaxCaulifla » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:58 am

Tombstone1988 wrote: Saying that, I still think that Ganos was portrayed as a bit too weak and I still dislike the sequence with Caway.
Not at all, it was stated Ganos had Roshi beat when it came to strength. Besides, complaining about power levels here is ridiculous.

As for Ganos, being team Captain doesn't mean he's the strongest. Like how Toppo is U11's leader, but Jiren is the team's strongest fighter.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
It would have been a nice twist if he died. That scene carried a lot of emotions, but no, they ruined it, unsurprisingly. That would have been the most powerful death in Super.
It worked fine as it is, so they didn't "ruin" it. If anything, him actually dying would have been lazy.

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Re: Super Episode 105 (27 August 2017)

Post by kidhero1000 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:34 am

Noah wrote:
kidhero1000 wrote:Has anyone tried to ask Toshio on twitter what Kale's transformation is officially called by Toei?
This actually matters?
Yup. :D
He devolved into saying only one word. Time to hit the ol' cosmic trail.

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