Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by legendaryz07 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:13 pm

Yeah. There was no way Frieza was going to willingly work with someone weaker than him. Though I'm confident he still has a grand scheme up his ass somewhere.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:17 pm

kinisking wrote:[
Yeah, not really understanding why people are complaining about Gohan's role so far. He beat Botamo, had an interesting fight with Obuni, made up the circle strategy (talk shit all you want, but Piccolo and Roshi thought it was a smart strategy too. If they didn't then they wouldn't have followed along), and saved Krillin.
You mean the strategy Gohan abandoned and went the Freddy Jones route? And Gohan didn't even need to save Krillin since Krillin and Roshi took out the attack. Gohan was unneeded.

Overall, Gohan was pathetic this episode since he had no counter for the IT, despite it being a technique Goku hammered him with in Episode 90. It's even more annoying when people said, "Gohan should have used his full power", when this is Gohan's problem. He doesn't problem solve with his head, he uses his brute strength to overwhelm people.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:18 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Frieza and Frost's team-up amounted to absolutely nothing. That's funny and expected.

The writing in this show is so bad, sometimes it baffles me.
It amounted to Frost getting ringed out and erased, something did very much happen.

And as for bad writing, that would only have been the case if Frieza had actually sided with Frost. That act would have put both his personal resurrection, his universe and his very existence at risk by teaming up with someone who is weaker then more the half his team mates, has only really achieved anything with cheap tricks and whos one good plan failed. He he would have done it purely for the tired trop of hateing saiyans.

Sorry but I'll take the rather clever writing that was done in the episode over that.
There was nothing clever about this. Both Gohan and Frieza were MORE than strong enough to ring out Frost without pulling that charade.

Teaming up with Frost could have benefited him in the long run until his purpose was served. Frost could have been used as an additional pair of eyes, and someone who disposed of lesser foes. Ultimately, their team up had no purpose. It's abysmal writing.
I have to agree with this 100%. What the fuck was the point of Frost and Freeza teaming up in the first place? Why would Freeza even make that offer if it was just so he could K.O. Frost, something he would have been able to do regardless, and not even benefit at all from the team-up? Freeza went out of his way to ally up with Frost just for the sole reason of eliminating Frost. It just doesn't make any sense. Their alliance amounted to absolutely nothing, just a completely pointless way to try and build fake tension with the nonsensical Freeza vs Gohan fight.

Man oh man, when Freeza first saw Frost at the beginning of the tournament he had to have been thinking "Holy shit, I've gotta watch out for that dude he could be just as strong as me if not stronger! I better come up with some cunning scheme to eliminate this powerhouse, otherwise we're all screwed!". If he wasn't thinking this, then why would he even team up with Frost if he wasn't going to even use that alliance against anyone? So pointless.

And it's not like we haven't seen Freeza use underlings before to do his bidding, kind of the entire purpose of his character when he was first introduced. He didn't just kill Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz, he instead made them work for him. Freeza is great at owning people and making them do his bidding. Freeza didn't make Frost do jack shit.
Last edited by Asura on Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:19 pm

This was a good episode in general but another bad episode among a string of bad episodes for Gohan. He's being written as pathetic and stupid when in the past he's been neither of those things. When Gohan fought Frieza he was enraged and on point striking with overwhelming force (or at least he hoped). When Gohan fought Cell he dicked around some but for the most part was cold fury and focus. When Gohan fought Buu he was a little arrogant, but at least his fighting skills were way beyond what we're seeing here.

I can buy Gohan having some trouble versus Jimeze. If we posit that Jimeze is a SSJ or even SSJ2 level fighter with perfected instant transmission, and Jimeze is shown as utilizing his instant transmission with much greater fluidity, finesse, and skill than Goku ever does, then I can see how, even though Gohan knows about instant transmission, Gohan might have some trouble. But Gohan should still win his fight without getting beat up so badly. He shouldn't need help from anyone, least of all Frieza.

Frieza, on the other hand, has never been on the receiving end of instant transmission. He shouldn't have any experience with the technique and he shouldn't be able to counter it so effortlessly. The only way I see it making sense is if Final Form Frieza (essentially his new base form) is just that much faster than base Gohan. It's really hard to tell where power levels are at in Super, it's becoming frustratingly so, but I suppose that's not hard to imagine. "Ultimate" Gohan just makes everything all the more confusing, and the fact that he doesn't use his Super Saiyan forms anymore. His base form could very well be quite weak compared to, say, Vegeta or Android 18 even. The fact that he doesn't use his full power all the time is also incredibly perplexing.

Frieza counter-betraying Frost was great. The short little scuffle between Gohan and Frieza was nice, though I do wish Gohan had gotten a bit more shine, it ended up being a mock battle, so it's hard to draw any actual conclusions. All of the intrigue and in-universe speculation around Frieza was great. I guess the one thing I didn't like was where it left me wondering, again, actually how strong is Gohan these days? And are they going to continue to write him as dumb and sad?

Convoluted power levels discussion spoilered here:
[spoiler]Frieza was around 120 million on namek, his "final form" might now be fifty times that by now, who knows? Gohan's base form when he fought Perfect Cell was around 80 million and let's say he got weaker by the time he unlocked his "mystic" power. So, Gohan's "mystic base" at the time of Majin Buu might have been 70 million and his power could go as high as, well, stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. If we concede that SSJ2 Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku at the time, and Ultimate Gohan is even stronger than 4 times that, phew, Gohan's Ultimate potential in the Buu saga was pretty strong. SSJ3 Goku was at minimum 32 billion. I'd assume SSJ3 Gotenks is, again, at minimum 64 billion. That makes Ultimate Gohan easily 65 billion and probably closer to 120 billion. On the upper end that makes his Buu saga power level, which, for all intents and purposes ought to reflect his current Super power as well, 1,000 times as strong as final form namek frieza. Wowie! Even still, with the way Gohan's "mystic form" seems to work, it's not exactly a form at all. I'm not even sure it's an on/off switch. He just powers up. I suppose at some point it becomes binary, bang or no bang, but with Gohan's "base form" becoming even weaker since the end of the Buu saga and throughout Super, it seems like he could potentially go from a base power level of something like 50 million all the way back up to 100 billion or something, which sounds crazy but if true would put him and Frieza in an interestingly similar boat. If we assume that Frieza's final form has gotten, let's be generous and call it 50 times stronger, then his "new base," so to speak, is at a power level of roughly 6 billion. He could give Perfect Cell a run for his money with that power level, but ultimately it wouldn't be quite enough. But Super's True Golden Frieza can stand toe-to-toe with SSB Goku using Kaiyoken x10, an insanely impressive feat that Gohan just doesn't quite match. We usually assume that SSB is stronger to some unspecified degree than SSJ2 and anwhere from slightly weaker or slightly stronger than SSJ3 but with much better ki and stamina control. We also generally assume that Gohan's full mystic power is at least as strong as SSJ2 and probably stronger. Super-level Ultimate Gohan can probably hang with Super-level SSJ3 Goku, but Goku can push himself ten times that level, making Goku's full power at minimum a hilarious 1 trillion. And True Golden Frieza is easily at that level. The range of power levels is tighter with Frieza (increasing by a factor of roughly 167 compared with Gohan's power increasing up to 2000 times), and Frieza ultimately has the higher power, but the general concept of both of them having a somewhat "weak" "base form" and then one, ultra-powerful transformation puts them in a similar space.[/spoiler]
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Kagari » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:22 pm

kinisking wrote:
Kagari wrote:
Except finish off a universe, but I guess that's not important/people seem to be forgetting about that.
Yeah, not really understanding why people are complaining about Gohan's role so far. He beat Botamo, had an interesting fight with Obuni, made up the circle strategy (talk shit all you want, but Piccolo and Roshi thought it was a smart strategy too. If they didn't then they wouldn't have followed along), and saved Krillin.
I imagine it's for several reasons, not helped by the "self-contained" nature of each episode so far. You also have people who want characters to steamroll through everything 100% of the time, but that's just boring. Gohan's fight with Obuni is still one of the best in the tournament so far even if Gohan did overpower him in the end. It was everything in-between and shortly after his defeat that sold that moment for Gohan's character.

This week my only complaint is the forced tension created with Jimeze (and Piccolo vanishing within the couple minutes that had gone by since 106...) but Gohan going along with Freeza's plan was really something I never expected based on the previews. A good scene for both Gohan and Freeza there.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:23 pm

Ziegander wrote:This was a good episode in general but another bad episode among a string of bad episodes for Gohan. He's being written as pathetic and stupid when in the past he's been neither of those things. When Gohan fought Frieza he was enraged and on point striking with overwhelming force (or at least he hoped). When Gohan fought Cell he dicked around some but for the most part was cold fury and focus. When Gohan fought Buu he was a little arrogant, but at least his fighting skills were way beyond what we're seeing here.

I can buy Gohan having some trouble versus Jimeze. If we posit that Jimeze is a SSJ or even SSJ2 level fighter with perfected instant transmission, and Jimeze is shown as utilizing his instant transmission with much greater fluidity, finesse, and skill than Goku ever does, then I can see how, even though Gohan knows about instant transmission, Gohan might have some trouble. But Gohan should still win his fight without getting beat up so badly. He shouldn't need help from anyone, least of all Frieza.

Frieza, on the other hand, has never been on the receiving end of instant transmission. He shouldn't have any experience with the technique and he shouldn't be able to counter it so effortlessly. The only way I see it making sense is if Final Form Frieza (essentially his new base form) is just that much faster than base Gohan. It's really hard to tell where power levels are at in Super, it's becoming frustratingly so, but I suppose that's not hard to imagine. "Ultimate" Gohan just makes everything all the more confusing, and the fact that he doesn't use his Super Saiyan forms anymore. His base form could very well be quite weak compared to, say, Vegeta or Android 18 even. The fact that he doesn't use his full power all the time is also incredibly perplexing.

Frieza counter-betraying Frost was great. The short little scuffle between Gohan and Frieza was nice, though I do wish Gohan had gotten a bit more shine, it ended up being a mock battle, so it's hard to draw any actual conclusions. All of the intrigue and in-universe speculation around Frieza was great. I guess the one thing I didn't like was where it left me wondering, again, actually how strong is Gohan these days? And are they going to continue to write him as dumb and sad?

Convoluted power levels discussion spoilered here:
[spoiler]Frieza was around 120 million on namek, his "final form" might now be fifty times that by now, who knows? Gohan's base form when he fought Perfect Cell was around 80 million and let's say he got weaker by the time he unlocked his "mystic" power. So, Gohan's "mystic base" at the time of Majin Buu might have been 70 million and his power could go as high as, well, stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. If we concede that SSJ2 Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku at the time, and Ultimate Gohan is even stronger than 4 times that, phew, Gohan's Ultimate potential in the Buu saga was pretty strong. SSJ3 Goku was at minimum 32 billion. I'd assume SSJ3 Gotenks is, again, at minimum 64 billion. That makes Ultimate Gohan easily 65 billion and probably closer to 120 billion. On the upper end that makes his Buu saga power level, which, for all intents and purposes ought to reflect his current Super power as well, 1,000 times as strong as final form namek frieza. Wowie! Even still, with the way Gohan's "mystic form" seems to work, it's not exactly a form at all. I'm not even sure it's an on/off switch. He just powers up. I suppose at some point it becomes binary, bang or no bang, but with Gohan's "base form" becoming even weaker since the end of the Buu saga and throughout Super, it seems like he could potentially go from a base power level of something like 50 million all the way back up to 100 billion or something, which sounds crazy but if true would put him and Frieza in an interestingly similar boat. If we assume that Frieza's final form has gotten, let's be generous and call it 50 times stronger, then his "new base," so to speak, is at a power level of roughly 6 billion. He could give Perfect Cell a run for his money with that power level, but ultimately it wouldn't be quite enough. But Super's True Golden Frieza can stand toe-to-toe with SSB Goku using Kaiyoken x10, an insanely impressive feat that Gohan just doesn't quite match. We usually assume that SSB is stronger to some unspecified degree than SSJ2 and anwhere from slightly weaker or slightly stronger than SSJ3 but with much better ki and stamina control. We also generally assume that Gohan's full mystic power is at least as strong as SSJ2 and probably stronger. Super-level Ultimate Gohan can probably hang with Super-level SSJ3 Goku, but Goku can push himself ten times that level, making Goku's full power at minimum a hilarious 1 trillion. And True Golden Frieza is easily at that level. The range of power levels is tighter with Frieza (increasing by a factor of roughly 167 compared with Gohan's power increasing up to 2000 times), and Frieza ultimately has the higher power, but the general concept of both of them having a somewhat "weak" "base form" and then one, ultra-powerful transformation puts them in a similar space.[/spoiler]
Not really. He did the same thing Goku did against Copy-Vegeta or even Beerus in the Battle of Gods movie. It isn't about speed, unless you think Beerus was slower than Goku when they fought in Battle of Gods. Freeza knew how to counter IT, Gohan didn't. And base form Gohan fought evenly with base form Goku in Episode 90, unless you also think base form Goku is vastly weaker than base form Vegeta.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:27 pm

I'd like to know more about why Shunkan Ido is childs play. I mean I thought it was one of the best techniques Goku has ever had. Freeza made it look like a total joke. The weakness I know of is that it does take a least a second to use. Hence Dyspo knocking Goku before he could even use it. Though maybe Jimeze was too predictable? Is there something else that makes the technique worthless on Freeza?
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Username2016 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:29 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Frieza and Frost's team-up amounted to absolutely nothing. That's funny and expected.

The writing in this show is so bad, sometimes it baffles me.
It amounted to Frost getting ringed out and erased, something did very much happen.

And as for bad writing, that would only have been the case if Frieza had actually sided with Frost. That act would have put both his personal resurrection, his universe and his very existence at risk by teaming up with someone who is weaker then more the half his team mates, has only really achieved anything with cheap tricks and whos one good plan failed. He he would have done it purely for the tired trop of hateing saiyans.

Sorry but I'll take the rather clever writing that was done in the episode over that.
There was nothing clever about this. Both Gohan and Frieza were MORE than strong enough to ring out Frost without pulling that charade.

Teaming up with Frost could have benefited him in the long run until his purpose was served. Frost could have been used as an additional pair of eyes, and someone who disposed of lesser foes. Ultimately, their team up had no purpose. It's abysmal writing.
Frost could've easily got away from Frieza and Gohan, like he did with SSB Vegeta

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:34 pm

Username2016 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
It amounted to Frost getting ringed out and erased, something did very much happen.

And as for bad writing, that would only have been the case if Frieza had actually sided with Frost. That act would have put both his personal resurrection, his universe and his very existence at risk by teaming up with someone who is weaker then more the half his team mates, has only really achieved anything with cheap tricks and whos one good plan failed. He he would have done it purely for the tired trop of hateing saiyans.

Sorry but I'll take the rather clever writing that was done in the episode over that.
There was nothing clever about this. Both Gohan and Frieza were MORE than strong enough to ring out Frost without pulling that charade.

Teaming up with Frost could have benefited him in the long run until his purpose was served. Frost could have been used as an additional pair of eyes, and someone who disposed of lesser foes. Ultimately, their team up had no purpose. It's abysmal writing.
Frost could've easily got away from Frieza and Gohan, like he did with SSB Vegeta
It's just a smokescreen vanish, I don't know why people are acting like Frost can use a technique similar to IT or something where he can do it instantly on the spot in like, less than 0.1 seconds. If Freeza was to just turn his hand around and blast him out of the ring while they were talking in front of Gohan, do you really think Frost would somehow be able to use that technique faster than Freeza can shoot him?

People seem to keep forgetting how weak Frost is. All he has is cunning, and cunning isn't going to save you every time, especially from someone as fast and as powerful as Freeza.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:35 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:I'd like to know more about why Shunkan Ido is childs play. I mean I thought it was one of the best techniques Goku has ever had. Freeza made it look like a total joke. The weakness I know of is that it does take a least a second to use. Hence Dyspo knocking Goku before he could even use it. Though maybe Jimeze was too predictable? Is there something else that makes the technique worthless on Freeza?
Jimeze used that "teleport into the air" maneuver on Gohan then tried to use it again on Frieza so he probably predicted where he was going. Plus Frieza has a long prehensile tail which makes it a lot harder to attack him in his blind spots.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:49 pm

HeroR wrote:Not really. He did the same thing Goku did against Copy-Vegeta or even Beerus in the Battle of Gods movie. It isn't about speed, unless you think Beerus was slower than Goku when they fought in Battle of Gods. Freeza knew how to counter IT, Gohan didn't. And base form Gohan fought evenly with base form Goku in Episode 90, unless you also think base form Goku is vastly weaker than base form Vegeta.
Ah, good point. No, base Goku is obviously equal with base Vegeta. Wow, so the only way I could reconcile Frieza dealing with Jimeze so easily doesn't hold any weight and I'm back to having no evidence for how or why Frieza could make such an effortless showing if Gohan was getting fucking jobbed. Dammit.

Power levels in this series are so completely insane. SSJ Gohan at the start of Super is weaker than first form Frieza, but his dad in base form is on par with final form Frieza :eh: :lol: :lolno: Wow. That means base Goku at the start of Super is literally 100,000 times stronger than base Gohan. Pffffffffffffftt. But we're supposed to assume Gohan's caught up with that by this point and he's equal in base form with Goku and Vegeta. I can't even.
Last edited by Ziegander on Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:51 pm

Asura wrote:
Kagari wrote:
Asura wrote:So can anyone actually explain why this whole elaborate plan between Freeza and Gohan was even necessary? If it was just a lesson about not trusting someone Freeza could have just turned around at any moment and shot him into the abyss.

Is there even an explanation? It gives a "Okay that looked cool but what was the point?" reaction, which I would honestly say describes Super in its near entirety.

Dragon Ball "What was the point of that?" Super. I don't even feel like Z has many moments like that. With every fight the characters went through, there was a purpose for their fight or a reason for why they were doing what they were doing. With Super I have to constantly question why or how things are happening. How did Gohan get separated from Piccolo? Why is Gohan refusing to transform? We all know Goku loves a fight which is why he's always staying in base, but there was zero explanation or reasoning why Gohan couldn't have just transformed. I guess you could call it fake tension but I'd just call it Gohan getting his ass literally handed to him and taking major damage for. no. reason. In fact, aside from Roshi it seems like Gohan has taken the most damage in the tournament so far on U7, and he hasn't even done anything yet.

What was the point of Goku and Vegeta throwing rocks at that sniper reflector blob instead of punching him? There was none. What was the point of Caulifla getting her ass kicked in base form, so bad in fact that her and Kale have just been sitting and resting for awhile? Turns out there was none. What was the point of that speech Toppo gave about no justice, only survival? It sure did look cool but ultimately there was no point since him and Dyspo still won't shut the hell up about randomly yelling JUSTICE!

Things just happen in Super without any kind of justification or reasoning behind it, that's one of my big problems in the show and while this arc has yet to approach the critical disaster levels of the Future Trunks arc in regards to shit happening without any justification or reasoning, it still has its fair share of faults which are easily noticeable as moments that look cool, but ultimately what was the point?
Except finish off a universe, but I guess that's not important/people seem to be forgetting about that.
Finish off a universe? Man oh man, talk about exaggerating the truth. He finished off a single guy that happened to be the last guy left in his universe. He also somewhat struggled to do so. Not a single other U7 character aside from Roshi has had a single opponent they've struggled against. Meanwhile that stupid ass robot in this episode was giving him a run for his money. You're making it sound like he single handedly finished the entire universe off by himself by eliminating multiple members.

Lord Frieza wrote:
Really not that hard to explain.

Frost has proven multiple times to be able to completely drop of the radar throughout the tournament. He can do it so effectively that even SSB Vegeta could not keep track of him when he bolted.

So plan is get Frost to completely drop his guard and also as close as possible which insures that he has zero opportunity to go to ground again and make further nuisance of himself.
Freeza has already proven himself to be faster than Instant Transmission. You're telling me there was no way he could have just instantly teleported behind Frost and shot him? That he HAD to go through this convoluted plan or else he wouldn't have been able to eliminate Frost, a character that is hundreds of times weaker than him?

You give Frost way too much credit.
I'm sure I've had to point this out once already, there is a very big difference between teleporting and hideing.

Frost has disappeared right in front of SSB Vegeta, who I remind you is roughtly just as powerful as Golden Frieza. If he can do that to someone that much stronger then himself, he can do it effortlessly to Final Form Frieza.

So I'm not giveing him to much credit, I'm following feats in the show itself.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Master Xar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:53 pm

Asura wrote:
Username2016 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
There was nothing clever about this. Both Gohan and Frieza were MORE than strong enough to ring out Frost without pulling that charade.

Teaming up with Frost could have benefited him in the long run until his purpose was served. Frost could have been used as an additional pair of eyes, and someone who disposed of lesser foes. Ultimately, their team up had no purpose. It's abysmal writing.
Frost could've easily got away from Frieza and Gohan, like he did with SSB Vegeta
It's just a smokescreen vanish, I don't know why people are acting like Frost can use a technique similar to IT or something where he can do it instantly on the spot in like, less than 0.1 seconds. If Freeza was to just turn his hand around and blast him out of the ring while they were talking in front of Gohan, do you really think Frost would somehow be able to use that technique faster than Freeza can shoot him?

People seem to keep forgetting how weak Frost is. All he has is cunning, and cunning isn't going to save you every time, especially from someone as fast and as powerful as Freeza.
If Frost and Frieza were to be in the same transformation Frost is marginally more powerful, his assault form in the universe 6 arc was able to fight a stronger base form Goku than ROF Goku who wrecked Final Form Frieza's shit, you are underestimating Frost, Frieza without his Golden Form is logically weaker than Frost. It was best this way to catch him off guard, if he knew something was up or if they turned to him he would have managed to either swindle his way out or smokebomb away.

Besides that still doesn't change the fact that he still managed to escape SSJB Vegeta with that smokescreen who is just as fast if not faster than Golden Frieza and Gohan.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:55 pm

Ziegander wrote:
HeroR wrote:Not really. He did the same thing Goku did against Copy-Vegeta or even Beerus in the Battle of Gods movie. It isn't about speed, unless you think Beerus was slower than Goku when they fought in Battle of Gods. Freeza knew how to counter IT, Gohan didn't. And base form Gohan fought evenly with base form Goku in Episode 90, unless you also think base form Goku is vastly weaker than base form Vegeta.
Ah, good point. No, base Goku is obviously equal with base Vegeta. Wow, so the only way I could reconcile Frieza dealing with Jimeze so easily doesn't hold any weight and I'm back to having no evidence for how or why Frieza could make such an effortless showing if Gohan was getting fucking jobbed. Dammit.
Experience. Freeza is an overall more experience fighter than Gohan. Plus, Freeza has a tail to cover his blindspots.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Asura wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
It amounted to Frost getting ringed out and erased, something did very much happen.

And as for bad writing, that would only have been the case if Frieza had actually sided with Frost. That act would have put both his personal resurrection, his universe and his very existence at risk by teaming up with someone who is weaker then more the half his team mates, has only really achieved anything with cheap tricks and whos one good plan failed. He he would have done it purely for the tired trop of hateing saiyans.

Sorry but I'll take the rather clever writing that was done in the episode over that.
There was nothing clever about this. Both Gohan and Frieza were MORE than strong enough to ring out Frost without pulling that charade.

Teaming up with Frost could have benefited him in the long run until his purpose was served. Frost could have been used as an additional pair of eyes, and someone who disposed of lesser foes. Ultimately, their team up had no purpose. It's abysmal writing.
I have to agree with this 100%. What the fuck was the point of Frost and Freeza teaming up in the first place? Why would Freeza even make that offer if it was just so he could K.O. Frost, something he would have been able to do regardless, and not even benefit at all from the team-up? Freeza went out of his way to ally up with Frost just for the sole reason of eliminating Frost. It just doesn't make any sense. Their alliance amounted to absolutely nothing, just a completely pointless way to try and build fake tension with the nonsensical Freeza vs Gohan fight.

Man oh man, when Freeza first saw Frost at the beginning of the tournament he had to have been thinking "Holy shit, I've gotta watch out for that dude he could be just as strong as me if not stronger! I better come up with some cunning scheme to eliminate this powerhouse, otherwise we're all screwed!". If he wasn't thinking this, then why would he even team up with Frost if he wasn't going to even use that alliance against anyone? So pointless.

And it's not like we haven't seen Freeza use underlings before to do his bidding, kind of the entire purpose of his character when he was first introduced. He didn't just kill Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz, he instead made them work for him. Freeza is great at owning people and making them do his bidding. Freeza didn't make Frost do jack shit.
You really don't get it? Frieza's offer to team up was exactly the same as the one offered to Sidra, and just like then it served multiple functions.

By making that offer he is able to gauge Frosts reaction. Is Frost like himself or not? It simultaneously also creates a connection that can be exploited one way or another.

Regardless of Frosts nature, Frieza can either form a real alliance if Frost was useful and if not, he considered Frost an amateur, he can do as he did, trick him into letting his guard down and ring him out, as long as he can plays his cards right at that moment.

Simple put, Frieza was playing Frost from the moment he spoke to him.
Last edited by Lord Frieza on Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:08 pm

Ilikepictures-meh wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Ilikepictures-meh wrote:Ribrianne once again having an impressive performance, and this fandom still probably has some people doubting how strong she is because they don't like her design or character, despite her looking strong every time she's been on screen.

I would have preferred it if Frost screwed over Frieza instead of how it turned out, but it was entertaining regardless. I'm wondering how Frieza is going to get eliminated and what's going to be his overall fate during the end of this arc.

Also I need to see a Toppo (maybe even with Dyspo) vs Frieza fight before either goes out of bounds.
I don't think this is the episode to say that Ribrianne had a impressive showing. She was literally beating on base Goku, something that even the lowest of the low tier fighters have been capable of doing in this tournament.

I could totally get behind the fact that she is powerful, her showings against Vegeta and 17 more than prove that, but this episode had a very weak showing on her part.
She still had an impressive showing because she had Goku in the defensive the entire time and none of Goku attacks affected her in any way, and her previous showings that you mentioned with her playing with Ssj Vegeta, and 17 not being able to take her out proves she was holding back just like Goku was.
Which is why it's just delusional for anyone to claim she's fodder or weak. (Not saying you, just a general statement for people who can't get over her personality or design making dumb claims that she's weak, when ever since she's transformed she's never looked weak or in a bad light in battle)
Indeed as with your Orignal Post, Well Said Ilikepictures-meh! :thumbup:

While I wanted the fight to be higher level and was dis-pointed Toei keep it at base level, their is great prestant to call this a base level fight where both where indeed holding back to test the other most likely, but for what it was worth Ribrianne held Very Well her own against Goku.

Nothing Phased her at that level of Power and she just kept coming with more joyfulliness then any fatigue or damage, she TANKED Goku at base level like nothing. She was indeed holding back and GOKU Made the Mistake of Not going Bigger in this Power against her for whatever reasons. So I hope Goku as well as Ribrianne get more serious next episode.

Also the Treating and Calling Ribrianne as Fodder is highly by fans, mainly by some around the Net, is HIGHLY illogical and ignores the Facts and Feats she has performed already. It is Foddering-For-Foddering-Sakes just cause she does not fit their World View of What a High Powered Character should look like in Dragon Ball, but that is the thing, she is what a High Power Characters have mostly Looked like and Acted like in Dragon Ball for most if the Franchise's lifetime! Their is mostly always an air of funny, unique looking and uncanny attitude in most Dragon Ball Characters, their not all going to act and look like Bad-A$$-Rule-of-Cool Looking Style Characters, they are all unique and different. To undercut Ribrianne cause of this fact alone is highly unreal towards the reality of what most of Dragon Ball has been.

Ribrianne has shown much already and I figure she has just begun to show more as the ToP goes Forward!

AGAIN, I can be wrong and Toei can pull a fast one on us and say not she is done or out at anytime, but that would not jive well with the built-up story, marketing or how much she has been Hyped and Promoted for this arc, so the possibilities of that negative happening are very low still right now and well after the special right now, but we will have to wait and see and cross that bridge if need be.

She is not a character for all fans I get that, I been around long enough that not ALL Characters are for All Fans, BUT she has as much of a Right to be in Dragon Ball as any other and an Right for Fans like Me, You Ilikepictures-meh and others like us to Enjoy, Support and Grow with her Character! We can have her and others we like and the others that don't just don't, you can have who you want and all those you like, that should be considered fair and even. Their is no logic to wish her gone just cause one may not be fond of her, that is undercutting her fans, we all have room for all the characters we can enjoy out of and beyond the ToP! :thumbup: :D
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:17 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:I'm sure I've had to point this out once already, there is a very big difference between teleporting and hideing.

Frost has disappeared right in front of SSB Vegeta, who I remind you is roughtly just as powerful as Golden Frieza. If he can do that to someone that much stronger then himself, he can do it effortlessly to Final Form Frieza.

So I'm not giveing him to much credit, I'm following feats in the show itself.
Master Xar wrote:Besides that still doesn't change the fact that he still managed to escape SSJB Vegeta with that smokescreen who is just as fast if not faster than Golden Frieza and Gohan.
You're both forgetting the fact that Frost was already in combat with Vegeta and had an ample distance from him when he used that technique. He was standing right next to Freeza in this episode and while he had his guard up, was not in the heat of combat where he could use that technique in the confusion like he did with Vegeta. You can't even compare the two. Freeza is literally right next to him there's no excuse as to why Freeza can't deal with Frost in a single blow.

Saying that Frost is stronger than Freeza in his final form is simply nonsense. We've already been told that Freeza has been mentally training himself in hell to get stronger, and it's obvious to see that Frost is only at the level of an SSJ, maybe SSJ2 max. Vegeta was able to handle both Frost AND Magetta at the same time in SSJ. Freeza's final form is clearly above that in a league of his own, and then of course Golden Freeza is SSB tier. So saying that Freeza couldn't knock Frost out without catching him off guard because Frost is actually stronger than him is just a crazy thing to say.
Lord Frieza wrote:You really don't get it? Frieza's offer to team up was exactly the same as the one offered to Sidra, and just like then it served multiple functions.

By making that offer he is able to gauge Frosts reaction. Is Frost like himself or not? It simultaneously also creates a connection that can be exploited one way or another.

Regardless of Frosts nature, Frieza can either form a real alliance if Frost was useful and if not, he considered Frost an amateur, he can do as he did, trick him into letting his guard down and ring him out, as long as he can plays his cards right at that moment.

Simple put, Frieza was playing Frost from the moment he spoke to him.
No, I don't get it because there's nothing to get with any of your points, all I hear is excuses for Freeza, coming from the guy named "Lord Frieza". Wonder why that might be :wink:.

What is the point of judging Frost's reactions? What is the point of playing Frost at all when he's not anywhere near Freeza's level in terms of power? None of that makes any sense. You're telling me he set up this long and elaborate ruse SOLELY just so he could figure out if Frost was like him or not?

How would Freeza even know if Frost was useful or not? They never even did anything! He never even told Frost to do anything! It was the most completely pointless and forced alliance ever because all it amounted in was a long drawn out way to eliminate Frost, who isn't even a threat to him to begin with. Freeza is great at manipulating people, and yet he didn't even try to manipulate Frost into doing a single thing for him.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by zamasu121 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:27 pm

It seems like a lot of you here did not get what freeza was trying to do. Freeza never wanted to team up with Frost or use him to his benefit, he simply wanted to gain his trust just so he can fuck him over. Freeza could have beaten him and thrown him out of the ring, but it's more fun for him to fully gain his trust and then eliminating him.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Whatever » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:28 pm

Ziegander wrote:This was a good episode in general but another bad episode among a string of bad episodes for Gohan. He's being written as pathetic and stupid when in the past he's been neither of those things. When Gohan fought Frieza he was enraged and on point striking with overwhelming force (or at least he hoped). When Gohan fought Cell he dicked around some but for the most part was cold fury and focus. When Gohan fought Buu he was a little arrogant, but at least his fighting skills were way beyond what we're seeing here.

I can buy Gohan having some trouble versus Jimeze. If we posit that Jimeze is a SSJ or even SSJ2 level fighter with perfected instant transmission, and Jimeze is shown as utilizing his instant transmission with much greater fluidity, finesse, and skill than Goku ever does, then I can see how, even though Gohan knows about instant transmission, Gohan might have some trouble. But Gohan should still win his fight without getting beat up so badly. He shouldn't need help from anyone, least of all Frieza.

Frieza, on the other hand, has never been on the receiving end of instant transmission. He shouldn't have any experience with the technique and he shouldn't be able to counter it so effortlessly. The only way I see it making sense is if Final Form Frieza (essentially his new base form) is just that much faster than base Gohan. It's really hard to tell where power levels are at in Super, it's becoming frustratingly so, but I suppose that's not hard to imagine. "Ultimate" Gohan just makes everything all the more confusing, and the fact that he doesn't use his Super Saiyan forms anymore. His base form could very well be quite weak compared to, say, Vegeta or Android 18 even. The fact that he doesn't use his full power all the time is also incredibly perplexing.

Frieza counter-betraying Frost was great. The short little scuffle between Gohan and Frieza was nice, though I do wish Gohan had gotten a bit more shine, it ended up being a mock battle, so it's hard to draw any actual conclusions. All of the intrigue and in-universe speculation around Frieza was great. I guess the one thing I didn't like was where it left me wondering, again, actually how strong is Gohan these days? And are they going to continue to write him as dumb and sad?

Convoluted power levels discussion spoilered here:
[spoiler]Frieza was around 120 million on namek, his "final form" might now be fifty times that by now, who knows? Gohan's base form when he fought Perfect Cell was around 80 million and let's say he got weaker by the time he unlocked his "mystic" power. So, Gohan's "mystic base" at the time of Majin Buu might have been 70 million and his power could go as high as, well, stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. If we concede that SSJ2 Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku at the time, and Ultimate Gohan is even stronger than 4 times that, phew, Gohan's Ultimate potential in the Buu saga was pretty strong. SSJ3 Goku was at minimum 32 billion. I'd assume SSJ3 Gotenks is, again, at minimum 64 billion. That makes Ultimate Gohan easily 65 billion and probably closer to 120 billion. On the upper end that makes his Buu saga power level, which, for all intents and purposes ought to reflect his current Super power as well, 1,000 times as strong as final form namek frieza. Wowie! Even still, with the way Gohan's "mystic form" seems to work, it's not exactly a form at all. I'm not even sure it's an on/off switch. He just powers up. I suppose at some point it becomes binary, bang or no bang, but with Gohan's "base form" becoming even weaker since the end of the Buu saga and throughout Super, it seems like he could potentially go from a base power level of something like 50 million all the way back up to 100 billion or something, which sounds crazy but if true would put him and Frieza in an interestingly similar boat. If we assume that Frieza's final form has gotten, let's be generous and call it 50 times stronger, then his "new base," so to speak, is at a power level of roughly 6 billion. He could give Perfect Cell a run for his money with that power level, but ultimately it wouldn't be quite enough. But Super's True Golden Frieza can stand toe-to-toe with SSB Goku using Kaiyoken x10, an insanely impressive feat that Gohan just doesn't quite match. We usually assume that SSB is stronger to some unspecified degree than SSJ2 and anwhere from slightly weaker or slightly stronger than SSJ3 but with much better ki and stamina control. We also generally assume that Gohan's full mystic power is at least as strong as SSJ2 and probably stronger. Super-level Ultimate Gohan can probably hang with Super-level SSJ3 Goku, but Goku can push himself ten times that level, making Goku's full power at minimum a hilarious 1 trillion. And True Golden Frieza is easily at that level. The range of power levels is tighter with Frieza (increasing by a factor of roughly 167 compared with Gohan's power increasing up to 2000 times), and Frieza ultimately has the higher power, but the general concept of both of them having a somewhat "weak" "base form" and then one, ultra-powerful transformation puts them in a similar space.[/spoiler]
You don't seem to remember those things correctly.

Freeza saga:In all those instances you mentioned all Gohan did was get angry and rush to the enemy only for his rage gimmick to faill and then for him to need to be saved every time.How is that not stupid or pathetic?

Cell saga:He stopped fighting with Cell,then got ssj2 and played around with Cell,saved Vegeta and got his arm injured only to give up again before Goku tells him to man up.Yeah how amazing that he screwed up and needed to Goku to hold his hand.

Buu saga:He overpowered Buu,dicked around with him and called him a retard.Well guess what?
This person that he called a retard,absorbed his brother and mentor in front of him,beat him up,let him get healed,beat him up again,then absorbed him and then killed him.Compared to the buu saga he seems to be doing amazing so far.

As for Jimeze he simply outsmarted Gohan,not that hard since Gohan is mostly a brute.
And Freeza outsmarted Jimeze who outsmarted Gohan,so Freeza is a smarter fighter than Gohan,simple as that.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Master Xar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:35 pm

Asura wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:I'm sure I've had to point this out once already, there is a very big difference between teleporting and hideing.

Frost has disappeared right in front of SSB Vegeta, who I remind you is roughtly just as powerful as Golden Frieza. If he can do that to someone that much stronger then himself, he can do it effortlessly to Final Form Frieza.

So I'm not giveing him to much credit, I'm following feats in the show itself.
Master Xar wrote:Besides that still doesn't change the fact that he still managed to escape SSJB Vegeta with that smokescreen who is just as fast if not faster than Golden Frieza and Gohan.
You're both forgetting the fact that Frost was already in combat with Vegeta and had an ample distance from him when he used that technique. He was standing right next to Freeza in this episode and while he had his guard up, was not in the heat of combat where he could use that technique in the confusion like he did with Vegeta. You can't even compare the two. Freeza is literally right next to him there's no excuse as to why Freeza can't deal with Frost in a single blow.

Saying that Frost is stronger than Freeza in his final form is simply nonsense. We've already been told that Freeza has been mentally training himself in hell to get stronger, and it's obvious to see that Frost is only at the level of an SSJ, maybe SSJ2 max. Vegeta was able to handle both Frost AND Magetta at the same time in SSJ. Freeza's final form is clearly above that in a league of his own, and then of course Golden Freeza is SSB tier. So saying that Freeza couldn't knock Frost out without catching him off guard because Frost is actually stronger than him is just a crazy thing to say.
Lord Frieza wrote:You really don't get it? Frieza's offer to team up was exactly the same as the one offered to Sidra, and just like then it served multiple functions.

By making that offer he is able to gauge Frosts reaction. Is Frost like himself or not? It simultaneously also creates a connection that can be exploited one way or another.

Regardless of Frosts nature, Frieza can either form a real alliance if Frost was useful and if not, he considered Frost an amateur, he can do as he did, trick him into letting his guard down and ring him out, as long as he can plays his cards right at that moment.

Simple put, Frieza was playing Frost from the moment he spoke to him.
No, I don't get it because there's nothing to get with any of your points, all I hear is excuses for Freeza, coming from the guy named "Lord Frieza". Wonder why that might be :wink:.

What is the point of judging Frost's reactions? What is the point of playing Frost at all when he's not anywhere near Freeza's level in terms of power? None of that makes any sense. You're telling me he set up this long and elaborate ruse SOLELY just so he could figure out if Frost was like him or not?

How would Freeza even know if Frost was useful or not? They never even did anything! He never even told Frost to do anything! It was the most completely pointless and forced alliance ever because all it amounted in was a long drawn out way to eliminate Frost, who isn't even a threat to him to begin with. Freeza is great at manipulating people, and yet he didn't even try to manipulate Frost into doing a single thing for him.
There is nothing to hint that Final Form Frieza is in a "league of his own" just because he got stronger, Frost got stronger too as well as everyone else, we don't know if Frieza could contend with Magetta and SSJ Vegeta considering they are both stronger than their U6 counterparts who are much stronger than Final Form Frieza, a current "Above SSJ or SSJ2 max" should wipe the floor with Final Form Frieza, give me one logical example of Frieza absolutely stomping someone above Frost's level while only in his Final Form to come to this "league of his own" conclusion that came from...? Go on. Tell me.

Frost was behind him the entire time turning to blast him would've been a stupid move and given him ample time to dodge out of the way, "just turn and blast him" is oversimplifying the situation, in a fight when trying to sucker punch somebody off guard one of the worst ways you can do it is having your back to them to turn and punch them, underestimating Frost is what almost screwed Vegeta and if Frieza underestimated Frost who knows what he'll pull, regardless taking him head on there or trying to catch him off guard while he was behind him would be stupid.

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