Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Noah » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:47 pm

Bullza wrote:What does that have to do with it?
That Z is clearly a superior show, no matter what is your taste, the numbers proves otherwise.
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by kinisking » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:59 pm

HeroR wrote:
kinisking wrote:[
Yeah, not really understanding why people are complaining about Gohan's role so far. He beat Botamo, had an interesting fight with Obuni, made up the circle strategy (talk shit all you want, but Piccolo and Roshi thought it was a smart strategy too. If they didn't then they wouldn't have followed along), and saved Krillin.
You mean the strategy Gohan abandoned and went the Freddy Jones route? And Gohan didn't even need to save Krillin since Krillin and Roshi took out the attack. Gohan was unneeded.

Overall, Gohan was pathetic this episode since he had no counter for the IT, despite it being a technique Goku hammered him with in Episode 90. It's even more annoying when people said, "Gohan should have used his full power", when this is Gohan's problem. He doesn't problem solve with his head, he uses his brute strength to overwhelm people.
He abandoned the strategy because the stage changed and it was no longer viable. It's called being adaptive. Again, Piccolo and Roshi went with it so it made sense in universe.
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:59 pm

Noah wrote:
Bullza wrote:What does that have to do with it?
That Z is clearly a superior show, no matter what is your taste, the numbers proves otherwise.
Ehhhh it probably is better but not to the extent that most make it out to be where it's on a completely different level because it's definitely not.

Like I said I'm going through it again, I'm up to about episode 50 and yeah of course it's a good show but the sheer amount of filler in the thing is ridiculous, half of what I've seen is just filler, mostly poor filler as well like the Fake Namek episodes. Filler that creates inconsistencies later on like Piccolo destroying Goku's spaceship but later it was used to make the Capsule Spaceship.

It makes the pacing feel really slow. The fights in general aren't really as good because of the inferior animation that just makes them look like gifs a lot of the time. The music is a dreary and repetitive bore and I'm counting the episodes until the Faulconer soundtrack starts.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by precita » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:13 pm

The filler in DBZ isn't bothersome much outside of some points of the Namek saga. Either way it was episodic one and done stories. You felt like it was world building.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:14 pm

kinisking wrote:
HeroR wrote:
kinisking wrote:[
Yeah, not really understanding why people are complaining about Gohan's role so far. He beat Botamo, had an interesting fight with Obuni, made up the circle strategy (talk shit all you want, but Piccolo and Roshi thought it was a smart strategy too. If they didn't then they wouldn't have followed along), and saved Krillin.
You mean the strategy Gohan abandoned and went the Freddy Jones route? And Gohan didn't even need to save Krillin since Krillin and Roshi took out the attack. Gohan was unneeded.

Overall, Gohan was pathetic this episode since he had no counter for the IT, despite it being a technique Goku hammered him with in Episode 90. It's even more annoying when people said, "Gohan should have used his full power", when this is Gohan's problem. He doesn't problem solve with his head, he uses his brute strength to overwhelm people.
He abandoned the strategy because the stage changed and it was no longer viable. It's called being adaptive. Again, Piccolo and Roshi went with it so it made sense in universe.
Him 'being adaptive' was to utterly split up the group and leave the weaker fighters to fend for themselves. That is no way a good strategy no matter what Roshi and Piccolo push.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:16 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Ugh, I just realized that even though this tournament is now more than 10 episodes in, only 19 minutes have passed in-universe, which means that the thing's not even halfway done yet. Don't tell me this tournament is going to go on for another 10+ episodes...
It was said that the tourument was more than halfway done.
precita wrote:The filler in DBZ isn't bothersome much outside of some points of the Namek saga. Either way it was episodic one and done stories. You felt like it was world building.
Except World building are things that become important. Since it's filler, a lot of things are never mentioned again or outright ignored.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:20 pm

Bullza wrote:
Noah wrote:
Bullza wrote:What does that have to do with it?
That Z is clearly a superior show, no matter what is your taste, the numbers proves otherwise.
Ehhhh it probably is better but not to the extent that most make it out to be where it's on a completely different level because it's definitely not.

Like I said I'm going through it again, I'm up to about episode 50 and yeah of course it's a good show but the sheer amount of filler in the thing is ridiculous, half of what I've seen is just filler, mostly poor filler as well like the Fake Namek episodes. Filler that creates inconsistencies later on like Piccolo destroying Goku's spaceship but later it was used to make the Capsule Spaceship.

It makes the pacing feel really slow. The fights in general aren't really as good because of the inferior animation that just makes them look like gifs a lot of the time. The music is a dreary and repetitive bore and I'm counting the episodes until the Faulconer soundtrack starts.
Why not just watch Kai? Also, what do you mean you're counting the episodes until the Faulconer soundtrack starts? If you're watching the original english dub via orange bricks or something then the Faulconer soundtrack is on there since episode 1.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Xeztin » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:20 pm

WAS that 100 percent full power Freeza and Frost we saw in Namek saga or different? I don’t remember him being that huge.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:35 pm

Asura wrote: Why not just watch Kai? Also, what do you mean you're counting the episodes until the Faulconer soundtrack starts? If you're watching the original english dub via orange bricks or something then the Faulconer soundtrack is on there since episode 1.
The Faulconer track didn't start in the original English dub until somewhere in the middle of the Namek arc because that's when the in house funimation staff started dubbing it. Later they decided to redub those first 50(?) episodes with the "Ultimate Uncut Edition!" but they weren't using Faulconers score anymore at this point in time, so they got somebody else. I don't remember who, but it wasn't faulconer.
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:07 pm

Asura wrote:So can anyone actually explain why this whole elaborate plan between Freeza and Gohan was even necessary? If it was just a lesson about not trusting someone Freeza could have just turned around at any moment and shot him into the abyss.

Is there even an explanation? It gives a "Okay that looked cool but what was the point?" reaction, which I would honestly say describes Super in its near entirety.

Dragon Ball "What was the point of that?" Super. I don't even feel like Z has many moments like that. With every fight the characters went through, there was a purpose for their fight or a reason for why they were doing what they were doing. With Super I have to constantly question why or how things are happening. How did Gohan get separated from Piccolo? Why is Gohan refusing to transform? We all know Goku loves a fight which is why he's always staying in base, but there was zero explanation or reasoning why Gohan couldn't have just transformed. I guess you could call it fake tension but I'd just call it Gohan getting his ass literally handed to him and taking major damage for. no. reason. In fact, aside from Roshi it seems like Gohan has taken the most damage in the tournament so far on U7, and he hasn't even done anything yet.

What was the point of Goku and Vegeta throwing rocks at that sniper reflector blob instead of punching him? There was none. What was the point of Caulifla getting her ass kicked in base form, so bad in fact that her and Kale have just been sitting and resting for awhile? Turns out there was none. What was the point of that speech Toppo gave about no justice, only survival? It sure did look cool but ultimately there was no point since him and Dyspo still won't shut the hell up about randomly yelling JUSTICE!

Things just happen in Super without any kind of justification or reasoning behind it, that's one of my big problems in the show and while this arc has yet to approach the critical disaster levels of the Future Trunks arc in regards to shit happening without any justification or reasoning, it still has its fair share of faults which are easily noticeable as moments that look cool, but ultimately what was the point?
At times I feel like the writers are just jamming as much cool nonsense as they possibly can in an episode just for the sake of it. I remember episode 100 pretty much being nothing but that, it was entirely pointless, just Shoved to the brim with set pieces and meaningless crap. Sure I somewhat enjoyed this episode but what Frieza did was completely unnecessary, they even had Champa say in this episode that Frost stood no chance against Frieza, it's ridiculous.

I've voiced my opinion of DBS in a chat on a livestream with people that are OK or like Super, I said Super is trash and pretty much the only thing that the guys said back to me were "eeh I mean, Super has cool moments", sure, Super does have cool moments, but they're just that "moments". Moments that are untimatly pointless and only serve the point of making the show or an episode seem cool. When things tend to serve no purpose it devalues the episode and show as a whole to me.

My opinion of this episode was actually decent up until the end, because really the action between Gohan and Frieze was pointless fanservice.

It doesn't help that at times it feels like writers arent even on the same planet or reality when writing these episodes. They have like no continuity.

Also
What was the point of Caulifla getting her ass kicked in base form, so bad in fact that her and Kale have just been sitting and resting for awhile?
I'm pretty sure the point of that is so they can use Zenkai Boost nonsense to explain why she goes Super Saiyan 3 later. Not a spoiler by the way, it's just that all the clues point to that happening. Conjecture on my part.
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Whatever » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:50 pm

Ziegander wrote:
suppose I should have said, "in the past he's never been portrayed as both stupid and pathetic at once, and never either to such a degree as he currently is being portrayed." Would you agree more with that?
That depens on which case you are talking about,Gohan fighting like an amateur is nothing new,he just raged and overpowered his opponents for the most part in dbz.
In the Frieza saga he actually scared Frieza at least twice that I recall and got several solid shots in on Frieza causing him actual pain through going berserk against an enemy whose standing power level was way out of his league. I would never say that's anything close to pathetic, and even if you must say so you can't say it's on the same level as getting punked by a guy that's weaker than you and being written as incapable of doing anything about it.
He raged on 2nd form Freeza and caught him by surprise,Freeza no sold his assault and then he needed to be saved by Krillin,you know someone weaker than him.
He raged once again agaist 3rd form Freeza and caught him by surprise(Freeza was death beaming Piccolo at this point)then Freeza pushed Gohan's blast back at him and almost killed him before he got saved by a half dead Piccolo.
Every time he raged on somebody during the Freeza saga it did nothing but make Gohan need saving again.
Again, I'm not going to call this performance smart by any means, and that's not actually what I'm trying to say, but he fought better against Cell than he has against just about anybody in Super. His performance against Lavenda was shoddy, he eek'd out the win by finally wising up, but he was simply, as you say later, a brute. The point I guess I'm trying to make is that Gohan never used to be so simply a brute. He had technique.
I think you got it backwards,Gohan's battle against Lavender was his best so far because he actually used his brain instead of counting on simply overpowering him.
Again in dbz he was a brute,his fight with Lavender is the only time we see him do something more other than him being a brute.
I just don't see how you're seeing that. So far in Super he's gotten bitch-slapped by First Form Frieza, ignored for two arcs, but now he's "back (TM)" and so far he's managed to barely draw against a foe his dad or Vegeta could beat in their base forms, he's gotten beat by Piccolo in his SSJ2 form, he's gotten handled by SSJ2 Goku in his Ultimate Form, and in the Tournament of Power his best showing has been defeating Botamo, an opponent SSJ Vegeta was shown struggling with. Gohan struggled against Obuni (but defeated him), who could very well be secretly stronger than the likes of SSJ2 Goku or so, but I'd be surprised, and since has been running scared from a guy Tenshinhan can defeat with 1/4 of his power, from a laser robot, getting completely owned by a Yardrat whose likely weaker than SSJ Goku, and being unfavorably compared against Final Form Frieza. I don't know if I'd call running away from, losing to, and occasionally beating a few henceman-level enemies an amazing showing compared to the Buu saga where he was beating the crap out of the most feared evil in the universe when no one else could even touch the thing.
Most of your examples are him either being overpowered by his opponent(which he can't help if his opponent is stronger than him)or him being outsmarted.
Again in the Buu saga he beat up Buu by getting a cheap power up anyone could get and then hummiliated himself afterwards by getting beaten up twice,getting absorbed and getting killed.All of that was done by an opponent who was weaker than him and whom he called a retard nonetheless.
Jimeze didn't exactly outsmart Gohan, he used a technique that Gohan couldn't match. That simple. It would be like if Gohan couldn't fly and Jimeze could. It's not outsmarting if you're doing something your opponent can't do anything about. I won't argue that Gohan is really dumb when it comes to fighting. My main point is that he never used to be this dumb. Gohan's supposed to have his fighting spirit back. Even against Lavenda he fought him blind and did better than this. More to the point, his father uses instant transmission, Gohan is familiar with the technique and should be able to formulate some form of strategy against it. I'm complaining about the writing, and it was the writing that decided that Gohan has no strategy against it when it would make sense if he did.
Yeah he kinda did,he used his Instant Transmission to his advantage and attacked Gohan from his blind spots.
He could do not do anything against instant transmission when he fought Goku either,so thats nothing new.He is not Goku so him formulating plans on the fly is not something that comes natural to him,especially when most of the times he just overpowers his opponent.
Certainly Frieza is a smarter fighter than Gohan, but I don't understand how you think Frieza outsmarted Jimeze either. He simply couldn't be ambushed by instant transmission which just doesn't make any sense. If Frieza somehow possesses the uncanny ability to react instantaneously to danger, then he's a better fighter than either Goku or Vegeta and can fight without thinking. That doesn't make him smart. If Frieza somehow possesses the uncanny ability to know where someone using instant transmission will appear, then he's got a super power nobody else can replicate, but that doesn't make him smart. You can say, oh, he teleported up, he did that to Gohan, so Frieza obviously predicted it because he's so smart! But that's asinine. Jimeze did that twice and in no particular combination or pattern, and both times his manner of attack was different. Jimeze sometimes teleported to the side or even right in front of Gohan as Gohan's attention dictated. How Frieza is suddenly able to have no blind spots or use his tail to protect his blind spots when Jimeze could just as easily teleport directly in Frieza's face makes no sense at all. His defeat of Jimeze didn't show smarts, Frieza was simply immune to what is almost always a foolproof skill, in a way that made no sense, and overpowered his opponent.
Freeza predicted where Jimeze would attack him,he knew his opponent would try to attack from his blind spots(which he did)and then pummeled him when he got near him.Thats a pretty simply and smart plan if anything.
Gohan not transforming to Ultimate sooner was part of bad writing no doubt but his fighting skills in this episode are accurate in terms on how they have always been.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by TekTheNinja » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:52 pm

I've been thinking about how to word my thoughts on this episode and damn that's easier said than done. I liked pretty much NOTHING about this episode. Everything about it is contrived. The action is almost nonexistent and there's next to no development to story and character. I honestly can't think of one thing I liked about the episode.

Though hey, I was actually just recently starting to like Frost well enough for what he is, so that's pretty cool- ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNND HE'S DEAD. :roll:
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:56 pm

Asura wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Noah wrote:
That Z is clearly a superior show, no matter what is your taste, the numbers proves otherwise.
Ehhhh it probably is better but not to the extent that most make it out to be where it's on a completely different level because it's definitely not.

Like I said I'm going through it again, I'm up to about episode 50 and yeah of course it's a good show but the sheer amount of filler in the thing is ridiculous, half of what I've seen is just filler, mostly poor filler as well like the Fake Namek episodes. Filler that creates inconsistencies later on like Piccolo destroying Goku's spaceship but later it was used to make the Capsule Spaceship.

It makes the pacing feel really slow. The fights in general aren't really as good because of the inferior animation that just makes them look like gifs a lot of the time. The music is a dreary and repetitive bore and I'm counting the episodes until the Faulconer soundtrack starts.
Why not just watch Kai? Also, what do you mean you're counting the episodes until the Faulconer soundtrack starts? If you're watching the original english dub via orange bricks or something then the Faulconer soundtrack is on there since episode 1.
There is Kai but my comparison was specifically to Dragon Ball Z.

And yes I am watching the orange bricks but the Faulconer score does not actually start until episode 67 or 68.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:06 am

Whatever wrote:Freeza predicted where Jimeze would attack him,he knew his opponent would try to attack from his blind spots(which he did)and then pummeled him when he got near him.Thats a pretty simply and smart plan if anything.
An opponent that can instantly attack you in "your blind spots," necessitates that you not know what your blind spot is at any given moment. You concede that Jimeze did in fact attack Frieza in his blind spots, but if that were the case, simply knowing your opponent is going to do that isn't going to help you. If you can defend yourself from an attack, then that attack is not targeting a spot that you are in fact blind to. Likewise, if an attack is targeting your blind spot, by definition, it is attacking a spot from which you are unable to defend in that moment. Being able to inexplicably defend yourself when you can't isn't smart, it's not like Gohan wasn't trying to do that, it's a super power and bullshit writing.

Maaaaaaybe you can argue that Frieza was better at bluffing and feinting, thus giving Jimeze the perception of blind spots that he actually was defending, but DBS holds us by the hand and tells us everything subtle that the fighters are doing. That would have been decent writing. A stone-faced Gohan saying, "Hey. Frieza. How was it so easy for you to defeat his instant transmission?" And Frieza could have easily said something as simple as, "The battle of wits is as important as the battle of brawn, monkey-boy. He believed he could find any weak spot and exploit it, so I showed him what he wanted to see..." And then he laughs and walks off. No, instead, what we were shown is that Frieza just counters instant transmission because he can, because reasons. Gohan can't because usually no one can.
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by zamasu121 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:21 am

Ziegander wrote:
Whatever wrote:Freeza predicted where Jimeze would attack him,he knew his opponent would try to attack from his blind spots(which he did)and then pummeled him when he got near him.Thats a pretty simply and smart plan if anything.
An opponent that can instantly attack you in "your blind spots," necessitates that you not know what your blind spot is at any given moment. You concede that Jimeze did in fact attack Frieza in his blind spots, but if that were the case, simply knowing your opponent is going to do that isn't going to help you. If you can defend yourself from an attack, then that attack is not targeting a spot that you are in fact blind to. Likewise, if an attack is targeting your blind spot, by definition, it is attacking a spot from which you are unable to defend in that moment. Being able to inexplicably defend yourself when you can't isn't smart, it's not like Gohan wasn't trying to do that, it's a super power and bullshit writing.

Maaaaaaybe you can argue that Frieza was better at bluffing and feinting, thus giving Jimeze the perception of blind spots that he actually was defending, but DBS holds us by the hand and tells us everything subtle that the fighters are doing. That would have been decent writing. A stone-faced Gohan saying, "Hey. Frieza. How was it so easy for you to defeat his instant transmission?" And Frieza could have easily said something as simple as, "The battle of wits is as important as the battle of brawn, monkey-boy. He believed he could find any weak spot and exploit it, so I showed him what he wanted to see..." And then he laughs and walks off. No, instead, what we were shown is that Frieza just counters instant transmission because he can, because reasons. Gohan can't because usually no one can.
You do realize Freeza has a tail...right?

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:27 am

zamasu121 wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
Whatever wrote:Freeza predicted where Jimeze would attack him,he knew his opponent would try to attack from his blind spots(which he did)and then pummeled him when he got near him.Thats a pretty simply and smart plan if anything.
An opponent that can instantly attack you in "your blind spots," necessitates that you not know what your blind spot is at any given moment. You concede that Jimeze did in fact attack Frieza in his blind spots, but if that were the case, simply knowing your opponent is going to do that isn't going to help you. If you can defend yourself from an attack, then that attack is not targeting a spot that you are in fact blind to. Likewise, if an attack is targeting your blind spot, by definition, it is attacking a spot from which you are unable to defend in that moment. Being able to inexplicably defend yourself when you can't isn't smart, it's not like Gohan wasn't trying to do that, it's a super power and bullshit writing.

Maaaaaaybe you can argue that Frieza was better at bluffing and feinting, thus giving Jimeze the perception of blind spots that he actually was defending, but DBS holds us by the hand and tells us everything subtle that the fighters are doing. That would have been decent writing. A stone-faced Gohan saying, "Hey. Frieza. How was it so easy for you to defeat his instant transmission?" And Frieza could have easily said something as simple as, "The battle of wits is as important as the battle of brawn, monkey-boy. He believed he could find any weak spot and exploit it, so I showed him what he wanted to see..." And then he laughs and walks off. No, instead, what we were shown is that Frieza just counters instant transmission because he can, because reasons. Gohan can't because usually no one can.
You do realize Freeza has a tail...right?
If you don't realize how having a tail doesn't defend you against all blind spots or is somehow equivalent to never having a blind spot, then, uh, seriously, what? Of course I realize he has a fucking tail. He attacked Jimeze with it. He's attacked Goku with it. He'll someday soon attack someone else with it. If his tail can magically defend him from attacks he doesn't even need to know are coming, then he'd never get hit by anyone, except he routinely gets his face smashed in by Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, and they aren't using instant transmission to do so, so "he has a tail, duh," is not some ultra trump card that means Frieza has no blind spots. How is that even an argument?
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by zamasu121 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:36 am

Ziegander wrote:
zamasu121 wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
An opponent that can instantly attack you in "your blind spots," necessitates that you not know what your blind spot is at any given moment. You concede that Jimeze did in fact attack Frieza in his blind spots, but if that were the case, simply knowing your opponent is going to do that isn't going to help you. If you can defend yourself from an attack, then that attack is not targeting a spot that you are in fact blind to. Likewise, if an attack is targeting your blind spot, by definition, it is attacking a spot from which you are unable to defend in that moment. Being able to inexplicably defend yourself when you can't isn't smart, it's not like Gohan wasn't trying to do that, it's a super power and bullshit writing.

Maaaaaaybe you can argue that Frieza was better at bluffing and feinting, thus giving Jimeze the perception of blind spots that he actually was defending, but DBS holds us by the hand and tells us everything subtle that the fighters are doing. That would have been decent writing. A stone-faced Gohan saying, "Hey. Frieza. How was it so easy for you to defeat his instant transmission?" And Frieza could have easily said something as simple as, "The battle of wits is as important as the battle of brawn, monkey-boy. He believed he could find any weak spot and exploit it, so I showed him what he wanted to see..." And then he laughs and walks off. No, instead, what we were shown is that Frieza just counters instant transmission because he can, because reasons. Gohan can't because usually no one can.
You do realize Freeza has a tail...right?
If you don't realize how having a tail doesn't defend you against all blind spots or is somehow equivalent to never having a blind spot, then, uh, seriously, what? Of course I realize he has a fucking tail. He attacked Jimeze with it. He's attacked Goku with it. He'll someday soon attack someone else with it. If his tail can magically defend him from attacks he doesn't even need to know are coming, then he'd never get hit by anyone, except he routinely gets his face smashed in by Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, and they aren't using instant transmission to do so, so "he has a tail, duh," is not some ultra trump card that means Frieza has no blind spots. How is that even an argument?
Freeza simply anticipated that Jimeze would attack him from the back,thats it. You are over complicating this.

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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:48 am

zamasu121 wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
zamasu121 wrote:
You do realize Freeza has a tail...right?
If you don't realize how having a tail doesn't defend you against all blind spots or is somehow equivalent to never having a blind spot, then, uh, seriously, what? Of course I realize he has a fucking tail. He attacked Jimeze with it. He's attacked Goku with it. He'll someday soon attack someone else with it. If his tail can magically defend him from attacks he doesn't even need to know are coming, then he'd never get hit by anyone, except he routinely gets his face smashed in by Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, and they aren't using instant transmission to do so, so "he has a tail, duh," is not some ultra trump card that means Frieza has no blind spots. How is that even an argument?
Freeza simply anticipated that Jimeze would attack him from the back,thats it. You are over complicating this.
Okay, but even if that's the case, that makes him lucky not smart. Jimeze attacked Gohan from the front, side, and from above more often than he did from the back and Gohan was unable to predict or react to his attacks. My issue is not that Frieza defeated Jimeze. Jimeze is not that powerful. My issue is with how much Gohan struggled only for Frieza to defeat him with inordinate ease. The problem goes both ways. Neither should Gohan have been so helpless, nor should Frieza have been so invincible.

Whatever wants to make the showing out to be Frieza being so much smarter than Gohan because, man, Gohan is just dumb, but Frieza didn't do anything Gohan wasn't trying to do. Hitting an opponent who teleports to attack you from a direction you aren't defending is either a superpower or luck, but it's not smart. It's what anyone would try to do in that situation, and Gohan was shown trying to do it. Or perhaps it's about speed, if Frieza was way faster than base Gohan, then he could react faster and intercept Jimeze's instant attacks and counter them. But people are arguing it wasn't, so when Frieza tells Gohan, essentially, "stop being stupid and power up already," either Frieza is the one that doesn't know what he's talking about (and thus being dumb himself), or the people on these forums don't know what they're talking about.

Again, I'm not trying to argue that Frieza isn't a smarter fighter than Gohan, but this fight was certainly not a showcase of either fighters' intelligence, and thus Gohan's difficulty and Frieza's subsequent stomping match both came off as highly manufactured and I'm surprised I seem to be one of very few that is bothered by this.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

zamasu121
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by zamasu121 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:58 am

Ziegander wrote:
zamasu121 wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
If you don't realize how having a tail doesn't defend you against all blind spots or is somehow equivalent to never having a blind spot, then, uh, seriously, what? Of course I realize he has a fucking tail. He attacked Jimeze with it. He's attacked Goku with it. He'll someday soon attack someone else with it. If his tail can magically defend him from attacks he doesn't even need to know are coming, then he'd never get hit by anyone, except he routinely gets his face smashed in by Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, and they aren't using instant transmission to do so, so "he has a tail, duh," is not some ultra trump card that means Frieza has no blind spots. How is that even an argument?
Freeza simply anticipated that Jimeze would attack him from the back,thats it. You are over complicating this.
Okay, but even if that's the case, that makes him lucky not smart. Jimeze attacked Gohan from the front, side, and from above more often than he did from the back and Gohan was unable to predict or react to his attacks. My issue is not that Frieza defeated Jimeze. Jimeze is not that powerful. My issue is with how much Gohan struggled only for Frieza to defeat him with inordinate ease. The problem goes both ways. Neither should Gohan have been so helpless, nor should Frieza have been so invincible.

Whatever wants to make the showing out to be Frieza being so much smarter than Gohan because, man, Gohan is just dumb, but Frieza didn't do anything Gohan wasn't trying to do. Hitting an opponent who teleports to attack you from a direction you aren't defending is either a superpower or luck, but it's not smart. It's what anyone would try to do in that situation, and Gohan was shown trying to do it. Or perhaps it's about speed, if Frieza was way faster than base Gohan, then he could react faster and intercept Jimeze's instant attacks and counter them. But people are arguing it wasn't, so when Frieza tells Gohan, essentially, "stop being stupid and power up already," either Frieza is the one that doesn't know what he's talking about (and thus being dumb himself), or the people on these forums don't know what they're talking about.

Again, I'm not trying to argue that Frieza isn't a smarter fighter than Gohan, but this fight was certainly not a showcase of either fighters' intelligence, and thus Gohan's difficulty and Frieza's subsequent stomping match both came off as highly manufactured and I'm surprised I seem to be one of very few that is bothered by this.
i can understand why you would think is bad writing. I also hated how they made gohan look dumb and weak against jimeze, but i simply don't think it's that big of a deal(maybe it's because i don't really care about Gohan).

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Ziegander
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Re: Super Episode 108 (24 September 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:10 am

zamasu121 wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
zamasu121 wrote:
Freeza simply anticipated that Jimeze would attack him from the back,thats it. You are over complicating this.
Okay, but even if that's the case, that makes him lucky not smart. Jimeze attacked Gohan from the front, side, and from above more often than he did from the back and Gohan was unable to predict or react to his attacks. My issue is not that Frieza defeated Jimeze. Jimeze is not that powerful. My issue is with how much Gohan struggled only for Frieza to defeat him with inordinate ease. The problem goes both ways. Neither should Gohan have been so helpless, nor should Frieza have been so invincible.

Whatever wants to make the showing out to be Frieza being so much smarter than Gohan because, man, Gohan is just dumb, but Frieza didn't do anything Gohan wasn't trying to do. Hitting an opponent who teleports to attack you from a direction you aren't defending is either a superpower or luck, but it's not smart. It's what anyone would try to do in that situation, and Gohan was shown trying to do it. Or perhaps it's about speed, if Frieza was way faster than base Gohan, then he could react faster and intercept Jimeze's instant attacks and counter them. But people are arguing it wasn't, so when Frieza tells Gohan, essentially, "stop being stupid and power up already," either Frieza is the one that doesn't know what he's talking about (and thus being dumb himself), or the people on these forums don't know what they're talking about.

Again, I'm not trying to argue that Frieza isn't a smarter fighter than Gohan, but this fight was certainly not a showcase of either fighters' intelligence, and thus Gohan's difficulty and Frieza's subsequent stomping match both came off as highly manufactured and I'm surprised I seem to be one of very few that is bothered by this.
i can understand why you would think is bad writing. I also hated how they made gohan look dumb and weak against jimeze, but i simply don't think it's that big of a deal(maybe it's because i don't really care about Gohan).
I like Gohan, I want to see him given a bit of a better showing, but he's not my favorite character or anything. I just wish the writing were better and more consistent. I keep being really tempted to start my own fanfiction rewrite of the tournament attempting to handle the battle royale nature a bit better and give the whole thing a more consistent narrative.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

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