Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

[avasatu]

Wow, I really thought you'd dislike it too. The Hit vs Jiren fight starts out good but the second Hit's "plan" goes into effect it all falls apart. Not to mention it's really annoying how Time Skip just keeps having powers and abilities because the plot needs it to.

I liked the fight because Hit felt confident in being able to restrain Jiren for long enough until the tournament ended. I mean, even after seeing what Jiren did to Goku, Hit still had the resolve and belief that his new and improved Time-Skip could make the difference. I like that kind of self-confidence and belief in characters.

And it seemed as though that Hit was under the impression that even if Jiren was immobilised by his Time Skip/Freeze attack, and other characters tried to attack him, Jiren will still no sell it. And he had a point. Because we later see that Jiren put up a barrier to protect himself from Hit's attack when he wanted to finish off Jiren while he couldn't move that much and even when he was meditating and seemed available for sneak attack, he just had a barrier to protect himself and knock away opponents. Plus, martial arts pride and all that. You know. It's a Dragon Ball thing, given it is a martial arts show.

I'm not bothered at all with Hit's Time Skip abilities evolving the way they did. We see during the Champa arc, that Hit can make sudden adjustments to how his Time-Skip operate to adapt to how the fight might be progressing, especially if it's not in his favour. And given how his rematch with Goku went it wouldn't be out of the ordinary if Hit decided to make more changes to how his Time-Skip would work so that it could be versatile in combat should he come across a fighter as strong, or even stronger, than Goku in his Super Saiyan Blue form. Hit just have the unfortunate luck of pitting his new abilities on a opponent who's brute strength could overcome what the Time-Skip could dish out. We see that happen with Goku stacking Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan Blue and in their second bout (Episode 72), so the concept of an opponent overpowering Hit's Time-Skip ability certainly has some credence and isn't out of the ordinary.

The problem is that the episode touts itself as showing some development for Hit where he believes in shit and other people but what he does doesn't match up with this at all.

Hit is actually an idiot of he thinks neither Toppo nor Dypso or both of them won't attack him to free Jiren on the off chance he can actually hold him down for a long period of time. He has nobody to guard him or anything, he's the epitome of a sitting duck. It's all the more aggregious since the U6 Saiyan's specifically offer to help him out and he doesn't even tell them "watch my back while I hold him off!".

I don't even mean have the U6 Saiyan's attack Jiren directly, just break the fucking stage underneath him to ring him out. It's not like weak people haven't been able to do that yet. The whole warrior pride angle doesn't even make sense as the entire tournament has people constantly jump in to help one another out. Vegeta helps out Goku, Roshi,... Goku & Vegeta help out everyone else during the sniper episode, Krillin helps out 18, Kale helps out Caulifla, Goku helps Hit, Hit helps Bergamo take out a guy at the very start ouf the tournament, Toppo & Dypso try to take out UI Goku despite him and Jiren not being done,... It all feels so fucking contrived.

I'm not against Hit being overpowered, I just dislike how his Time Skip can apparently do whatever the hell the plot needs it to. Especially since it retroactively makes no sense, why are there no phantom Hit's in the U6 tournament? Or him trying to freeze Goku to take him out as he does to Jiren? Remember, U6 already implies Hit has a wider variety of abilities he can't use for fear of killing someone but besides his ranged attack, literally none of them are inherently lethal.

He was frozen in time. Breaking the stage would have done nothing, as evidenced by the rocks that were falling off the edge of the stage also being frozen.

[ekrolo2]

He was frozen in time. Breaking the stage would have done nothing, as evidenced by the rocks that were falling off the edge of the stage also being frozen.

Really, having a whole bunch of explosions go on around him to smash the stage away wouldn't have propelled him anywhere? Being frozen in time doesn't mean outside forces can't force you someplace else.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He was frozen in time. Breaking the stage would have done nothing, as evidenced by the rocks that were falling off the edge of the stage also being frozen.

Really, having a whole bunch of explosions go on around him to smash the stage away wouldn't have propelled him anywhere? Being frozen in time doesn't mean outside forces can't force you someplace else.

That can really depend a lot on how the time-lock is interpreted. Some pieces of fiction depict time-locks as things that can't even physically interact with realspace. Others portray it as the application of the time-lock on anything that enters its radius. Others still depict it as something that can indeed be interacted with, but only to the degree that the being in the time-lock suffers the same fate as if he/she was in realspace from his/her perspective. And others still are affected regularly by outside forces.

It gets complicated, as you can tell.

[Arugela]

I liked the fight because Hit felt confident in being able to restrain Jiren for long enough until the tournament ended. I mean, even after seeing what Jiren did to Goku, Hit still had the resolve and belief that his new and improved Time-Skip could make the difference. I like that kind of self-confidence and belief in characters.

And it seemed as though that Hit was under the impression that even if Jiren was immobilised by his Time Skip/Freeze attack, and other characters tried to attack him, Jiren will still no sell it. And he had a point. Because we later see that Jiren put up a barrier to protect himself from Hit's attack when he wanted to finish off Jiren while he couldn't move that much and even when he was meditating and seemed available for sneak attack, he just had a barrier to protect himself and knock away opponents. Plus, martial arts pride and all that. You know. It's a Dragon Ball thing, given it is a martial arts show.

I'm not bothered at all with Hit's Time Skip abilities evolving the way they did. We see during the Champa arc, that Hit can make sudden adjustments to how his Time-Skip operate to adapt to how the fight might be progressing, especially if it's not in his favour. And given how his rematch with Goku went it wouldn't be out of the ordinary if Hit decided to make more changes to how his Time-Skip would work so that it could be versatile in combat should he come across a fighter as strong, or even stronger, than Goku in his Super Saiyan Blue form. Hit just have the unfortunate luck of pitting his new abilities on a opponent who's brute strength could overcome what the Time-Skip could dish out. We see that happen with Goku stacking Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan Blue and in their second bout (Episode 72), so the concept of an opponent overpowering Hit's Time-Skip ability certainly has some credence and isn't out of the ordinary.

The problem is that the episode touts itself as showing some development for Hit where he believes in shit and other people but what he does doesn't match up with this at all.

Hit is actually an idiot of he thinks neither Toppo nor Dypso or both of them won't attack him to free Jiren on the off chance he can actually hold him down for a long period of time. He has nobody to guard him or anything, he's the epitome of a sitting duck. It's all the more aggregious since the U6 Saiyan's specifically offer to help him out and he doesn't even tell them "watch my back while I hold him off!".

I don't even mean have the U6 Saiyan's attack Jiren directly, just break the fucking stage underneath him to ring him out. It's not like weak people haven't been able to do that yet. The whole warrior pride angle doesn't even make sense as the entire tournament has people constantly jump in to help one another out. Vegeta helps out Goku, Roshi,... Goku & Vegeta help out everyone else during the sniper episode, Krillin helps out 18, Kale helps out Caulifla, Goku helps Hit, Hit helps Bergamo take out a guy at the very start ouf the tournament, Toppo & Dypso try to take out UI Goku despite him and Jiren not being done,... It all feels so fucking contrived.

I'm not against Hit being overpowered, I just dislike how his Time Skip can apparently do whatever the hell the plot needs it to. Especially since it retroactively makes no sense, why are there no phantom Hit's in the U6 tournament? Or him trying to freeze Goku to take him out as he does to Jiren? Remember, U6 already implies Hit has a wider variety of abilities he can't use for fear of killing someone but besides his ranged attack, literally none of them are inherently lethal.

He was frozen in time. Breaking the stage would have done nothing, as evidenced by the rocks that were falling off the edge of the stage also being frozen.

They could have possibly broken the stage around him in a wide enough area to take hit and jiren out so he could keep jiren frozen on the way down. That would have gotten the deserved statement from Champa. I think his time skip is only so wide of a sphere around him. He could have told them and possibly goku to help as goku Could have had an idea of the radius. then if they wanted jiren to stay they could have had him break out or get help from his buddies in a much more interesting fight. He was already breaking out. Goku and any fighters they desired to stay in the ring could still have ran and they could have let them go on the premise they used of them not being worth the effort and too weak. It's a potential character development they could give them. Especially with the. "There is no good or evil anymore. Just survival," thing. Many paths to the same conclusion, but different journey! A more compelling journey. If not they needed to emphasize whatever they were going for better to make it more reasonable. If they meant for jiren to be too close to escaping they didn't show it well enough or some subtleties are lost in translation. I wouldn't be surprised by either.

[mAcChaos]

Rather than ask why Hit didn't do something and assume he messed up, look at it the other way around.

Hit isn't stupid. He knows what he's doing. He managed to get closer to knocking out Jiren than Goku did and without Ultra Instinct. If Hit didn't ask the others to knock Jiren off the stage, then that must mean there is a good reason for it. It wouldn't have worked and he knew it, for whatever reason.

[Torturephile]

I'm sorry to say... But the figthers are just fucking stupid.

Hit is stopping Jiren for some moment. Instead of just kicking him out... They are staying there doing nothing... Not talking about Cabba and Co cuz Hit told them to leave... But the other universes and Goku included who was right next to it.

Hell they could have even kicked out Hit as well

Most of them are nothing to even Hit, and Goku isn't fully recovered.

And that explains nothing. They still could use the chance to try it like the 2 guys tried after Jiren went on hiatus.

It was the best chance ever... But nope everyone is watching

A bunch of low power warriors wouldn't have pushed Jiren at all. SSJ2 Goku didn't push him one bit, and Jiren effortlessly blocked SSG Goku's attacks with one finger. Breaking the ground under Jiren wouldn't have worked either as Jiren would have noticed their intend, then power up a bit and break free from Hit's trap, eventually kicking everyone who tried to attack him away.

[Lord Beerus]

The problem is that Vados' speech is meant to showcase Hit working with people, valuing them as something he cannot succeed in this tournament without. It doesn't work to say that and then say "Well it's generic DB warriortard logic at work!". It's especially dumb since the show is clearly trying to sell this as some brilliant master stratagem but it's not, it's really, really fucking stupid. It's an especially stupid sentiment since Hit can and has helped out several people already in this tournament, he saves Caulifla from getting ringed out, he helps Bergamo take out a U3 guy, he accepts Goku's aid in fighting Dypso,....

Because the Champa arc says "Hit's got a shit load of killer moves he can't use!" so unless Hit is STILL keeping several techniques at bay, I think we're very clearly supposed to infer to THIS stuff here being the moves exempt from the Champa arc. Which is really stupid since they're not lethal at all. Even the ranged attack that's dangerous can get used non-lethally. Nevermind the fact it's impossible for me to buy that Hit is apparently strong enough to be in Blue tier but up until recently he's NEVER improved his time manipulation powers.

Hit had already resigned that he was fighting a losing battle when he took on Jiren. Hit says himself that the moment he couldn't end the fight in one hit, he was doomed to lose. He didn't want to drag down any other person along with him when he knew that was the case. Hit could help other people in the tournament because Jiren hadn't truly interjected himself into the tournament battle yet and hadn't made himself a figure of intimidation with how he fought against Goku.

The keyword in that statement is "killer". As in, technique(s) used to kill an opponent. Not in the context of "killer" as in "awesome" or "cool". Because by all means, Hit would have used those techniques. But he didn't because had developed them yet. And given the context of that statement, and what we know about tournament based rules in Dragon Ball, it's obviously referring the techniques that Hit uses as an assassin to kill his targets. And we've seen just the type of killing technique Hit can incorporate into battle or when he's doing his job. The techniques he performed against Jiren can't be classified as "killer" techniques because those techniques were used for more defensive, counterattack and evasive reasons in battle as supposed to being techniques used to kill an opponent. Which Hit isn't allowed to do in either tournament in the Champa arc or the Universal Survival arc.

He says he was doomed to lose when his last resort attack failed, not beforehand. Before that he has Jiren vulnerable and alone and with a simple smashing of the aforementioned stage, he could have very easily ringed Jiren out and made the ToP infinitely more winnable for U6. It literally makes no sense for a scene meant to showcase Hit's smarts & realization that he needs other people to paint him as an idiot and a lone wolf who ignores good tactical judgment.

Making phantom time clones or sealing someone in a time prison is by no mean a 100% lethal move, nor is him firing the various ranged attacks against Goku and Jiren. When they fight in the 70s episodes, Goku tells him they can go all out this time around and when they do, Hit showcases the very same techniques he has in the ToP, meaning they're moves he already had before but didn't use them because reasons.

Hit literally says, "The moment I couldn't end it in one hit, my loss was confirmed." Hit was obviously referring to the first time he used the Time-Skip against Jiren and tried to end the fight with the first blow and Jiren managing to countering it.

Hit goes all out against Goku by killing him with a single strike. I mean, Hit is an assassin. And If you ask a guy like him to go all out against you, don't be surprised if he ends up killing you instantly. Goku put the hit on himself for a reason. (No pun intended) Also, for the record, the only ability we see Hit utilise in his rematch with Goku is intangibility. And Hit doesn't even use that technique in the Tournament Of Power. He just used his good ol' Time-Skip.

[ekrolo2]

Hit literally says, "The moment I couldn't end it in one hit, my loss was confirmed." Hit was obviously referring to the first time he used the Time-Skip against Jiren and tried to end the fight with the first blow and Jiren managing to countering it.

Hit goes all out against Goku by killing him with a single strike. I mean, Hit is an assassin. And If you ask a guy like to go all out against you, don't be surprised if he ends up killing you instantly. Goku put the hit on himself for a reason. (No pun intended) Also, for the record, the only ability we see Hit utilise in his rematch with Goku is intangibility. And Hit doesn't even use that technique in the Tournament Of Power. He just used his good ol' Time-Skip.

He's referring to it after everything is said and done as people are wont to do when they realize something was over for them before it started. It doesn't excuse his bad tactical decision making beforehand.

Yeah, why doesn't Hit use intangibility? That's pretty freaking useful for someone who's can clearly outclass you in martial might.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

So, finally got my thoughts sorted about this episode: This episode was really bad for a whole bunch of reasons. Primarily around the usage of Hit: he goes out to showcase how strong Jiren is, okay, why? We just had two episodes where he no sells Goku's various forms along with the hyped new state that apparently GoDs can't get to either without extreme difficulty. We don't need need any more episodes of Jiren showcasing his coolness.

By this logic, we might as well not show any of the other characters fighting after Goku faced Jiren... Tournament is over!

You can't just admit that Hit did pull a few cool twists and did far more than he was previously capable of in the Universe 6 Arc, his techniques have improved many fold. What Super is sometimes trying to do here is that an opponent's power level does not mean everything. This isn't the same as the Saiyan/Namek arcs in Z.

What you're saying is they should just not spend any air time displaying all the other surviving fighters unless they show Goku fighting Jiren again (which is hinted to happen soon..) and just tell us the results in about 2 episodes?

[Lord Beerus]

Hit literally says, "The moment I couldn't end it in one hit, my loss was confirmed." Hit was obviously referring to the first time he used the Time-Skip against Jiren and tried to end the fight with the first blow and Jiren managing to countering it.

Hit goes all out against Goku by killing him with a single strike. I mean, Hit is an assassin. And If you ask a guy like him to go all out against you, don't be surprised if he ends up killing you instantly. Goku put the hit on himself for a reason. (No pun intended) Also, for the record, the only ability we see Hit utilise in his rematch with Goku is intangibility. And Hit doesn't even use that technique in the Tournament Of Power. He just used his good ol' Time-Skip.

He's referring to it after everything is said and done as people are wont to do when they realize something was over for them before it started. It doesn't excuse his bad tactical decision making beforehand.

Yeah, why doesn't Hit use intangibility? That's pretty freaking useful for someone who's can clearly outclass you in martial might.

Eh. Honor Before Reason is a trope that has run through Dragon Ball's blood at times since the story began, so I can't fault Hit for acting the way he did.

I'm not sure why Hit didn't use his intangibility ability. My guess is that there is limited amount of time he could use it for since the technique runs on a lot on the skipped time he has stored in his own pocket dimension and using the Time-Skip would be more efficient. Plus, he can't move when he uses that technique. So it would be especially impractical to use such a an ability is a battle royal setting like the Tournament Of Power as he would be a sitting duck.

[ekrolo2]

Eh. Honor Before Reason is a trope that has run through Dragon Ball's blood at times since the story began, so I can't fault Hit for acting the way he did.

I'm not sure why Hit didn't use his intangibility ability. My guess is that there is limited amount of time he could use it for since the technique runs on a lot on the skipped time he has stored in his own pocket dimension and using the Time-Skip would be more efficient. Plus, he can't move when he uses that technique. So it would be especially impractical to use such a an ability is a battle royal setting like the Tournament Of Power as he would be a sitting duck.

I will fault it because the story is trying to paint Hit as being something of a team player but when putting himself in a position where you can have that matter in practical terms he just doesn't do it. Imagine if during the Spirit Bomb scene everyone tried to dog pile Goku and Goku tells the people who can protect him "NO! DON'T!". Which wouldn't happen because Goku's not that much of a pants shitting retard, even the Super version and I don't buy Hit essentially doing that here.

By this logic, we might as well not show any of the other characters fighting after Goku faced Jiren... Tournament is over!

You can't just admit that Hit did pull a few cool twists and did far more than he was previously capable of in the Universe 6 Arc, his techniques have improved many fold. What Super is sometimes trying to do here is that an opponent's power level does not mean everything. This isn't the same as the Saiyan/Namek arcs in Z.

What you're saying is they should just not spend any air time displaying all the other surviving fighters unless they show Goku fighting Jiren again (which is hinted to happen soon..) and just tell us the results in about 2 episodes?

Your ability to miss my point is astounding. The very intent of this episode is to hype Jiren some more by having him no sell Hit's various time manipulation abilities. Having the two of them fight at some point is fine, it's a really baffling decision now. We've just had a special where Jiren no sells EVERYTHING Goku's ever had in Super, we know he's SUGOI! as fuck already, do we really need a third episode to hype him up some more this quickly? Jiren basically got rid of Goku so it's more then fine to bench him again for a while, have him and Hit go at it some time later and use the time to progress other characters battles like Gohan & Piccolo's vs U6 Saiyan's or whatever U2 & 3 seem to be up to.

Further more, the whole "power levels aren't all that matter" is one of the biggest lies ever spoken by both the series and the fandom. Yes, that's all the matters. Hit is a character designed to not get brute forced and yet that is exactly how he always loses. He's never beaten by anything approaching actual strategic thinking but by classic Z rules of who's dick has the bigger number. This is a constant throughout the entire ToP tournament where people come up with something and it works.... until someone powers up or transforms to kick their shit it. Saying the Cell & Boo arcs didn't operate on power levels ruling everything is another thing that's just not factually right at all, just cause the numbers stopped doesn't mean the mechanics did.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

By this logic, we might as well not show any of the other characters fighting after Goku faced Jiren... Tournament is over!

You can't just admit that Hit did pull a few cool twists and did far more than he was previously capable of in the Universe 6 Arc, his techniques have improved many fold. What Super is sometimes trying to do here is that an opponent's power level does not mean everything. This isn't the same as the Saiyan/Namek arcs in Z.

What you're saying is they should just not spend any air time displaying all the other surviving fighters unless they show Goku fighting Jiren again (which is hinted to happen soon..) and just tell us the results in about 2 episodes?

Your ability to miss my point is astounding. The very intent of this episode is to hype Jiren some more by having him no sell Hit's various time manipulation abilities. Having the two of them fight at some point is fine, it's a really baffling decision now. We've just had a special where Jiren no sells EVERYTHING Goku's ever had in Super, we know he's SUGOI! as fuck already, do we really need a third episode to hype him up some more this quickly? Jiren basically got rid of Goku so it's more then fine to bench him again for a while, have him and Hit go at it some time later and use the time to progress other characters battles like Gohan & Piccolo's vs U6 Saiyan's or whatever U2 & 3 seem to be up to.

Further more, the whole "power levels aren't all that matter" is one of the biggest lies ever spoken by both the series and the fandom. Yes, that's all the matters. Hit is a character designed to not get brute forced and yet that is exactly how he always loses. He's never beaten by anything approaching actual strategic thinking but by classic Z rules of who's dick has the bigger number. This is a constant throughout the entire ToP tournament where people come up with something and it works.... until someone powers up or transforms to kick their shit it. Saying the Cell & Boo arcs didn't operate on power levels ruling everything is another thing that's just not factually right at all, just cause the numbers stopped doesn't mean the mechanics did.

In the previous tournament, Hit's very own power level was a bit lower than SSB Vegeta and Goku, but it was Hit's Time-Skip that gave Hit an advantage. Again, this is not Z. Even when Vegeta was losing, Beerus and Whis were making comments how Hit is frighteningly precise, and etc.

Also que Piccolo vs. Frost in Universe 6 tournament, do you think Piccolo was even close to Frost's power level? I don't think so, and Piccolo was extremely close to winning that battle, had Frost not cheated.

[Lord Beerus]

Eh. Honor Before Reason is a trope that has run through Dragon Ball's blood at times since the story began, so I can't fault Hit for acting the way he did.

I'm not sure why Hit didn't use his intangibility ability. My guess is that there is limited amount of time he could use it for since the technique runs on a lot on the skipped time he has stored in his own pocket dimension and using the Time-Skip would be more efficient. Plus, he can't move when he uses that technique. So it would be especially impractical to use such an ability is a battle royal setting like the Tournament Of Power as he would be a sitting duck.

I will fault it because the story is trying to paint Hit as being something of a team player but when putting himself in a position where you can have that matter in practical terms he just doesn't do it. Imagine if during the Spirit Bomb scene everyone tried to dog pile Goku and Goku tells the people who can protect him "NO! DON'T!". Which wouldn't happen because Goku's not that much of a pants shitting retard, even the Super version and I don't buy Hit essentially doing that here.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Martial artists be unpredictable and do their own thing in Dragon Ball, yo.

[ekrolo2]

By this logic, we might as well not show any of the other characters fighting after Goku faced Jiren... Tournament is over!

You can't just admit that Hit did pull a few cool twists and did far more than he was previously capable of in the Universe 6 Arc, his techniques have improved many fold. What Super is sometimes trying to do here is that an opponent's power level does not mean everything. This isn't the same as the Saiyan/Namek arcs in Z.

What you're saying is they should just not spend any air time displaying all the other surviving fighters unless they show Goku fighting Jiren again (which is hinted to happen soon..) and just tell us the results in about 2 episodes?

Your ability to miss my point is astounding. The very intent of this episode is to hype Jiren some more by having him no sell Hit's various time manipulation abilities. Having the two of them fight at some point is fine, it's a really baffling decision now. We've just had a special where Jiren no sells EVERYTHING Goku's ever had in Super, we know he's SUGOI! as fuck already, do we really need a third episode to hype him up some more this quickly? Jiren basically got rid of Goku so it's more then fine to bench him again for a while, have him and Hit go at it some time later and use the time to progress other characters battles like Gohan & Piccolo's vs U6 Saiyan's or whatever U2 & 3 seem to be up to.

Further more, the whole "power levels aren't all that matter" is one of the biggest lies ever spoken by both the series and the fandom. Yes, that's all the matters. Hit is a character designed to not get brute forced and yet that is exactly how he always loses. He's never beaten by anything approaching actual strategic thinking but by classic Z rules of who's dick has the bigger number. This is a constant throughout the entire ToP tournament where people come up with something and it works.... until someone powers up or transforms to kick their shit it. Saying the Cell & Boo arcs didn't operate on power levels ruling everything is another thing that's just not factually right at all, just cause the numbers stopped doesn't mean the mechanics did.

In the previous tournament, Hit's very own power level was a bit lower than SSB Vegeta and Goku, but it was Hit's Time-Skip that gave Hit an advantage. Again, this is not Z. Even when Vegeta was losing, Beerus and Whis were making comments how Hit is frighteningly precise, and etc.

Yes and the battle started strategic with Goku actually coming up with a solution to counter Time Skip that didn't entail a power up.... until that's what it devolved into, a classic post-Freeza example of two people powering up in a game of brute force oneupmanship.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Your ability to miss my point is astounding. The very intent of this episode is to hype Jiren some more by having him no sell Hit's various time manipulation abilities. Having the two of them fight at some point is fine, it's a really baffling decision now. We've just had a special where Jiren no sells EVERYTHING Goku's ever had in Super, we know he's SUGOI! as fuck already, do we really need a third episode to hype him up some more this quickly? Jiren basically got rid of Goku so it's more then fine to bench him again for a while, have him and Hit go at it some time later and use the time to progress other characters battles like Gohan & Piccolo's vs U6 Saiyan's or whatever U2 & 3 seem to be up to.

Further more, the whole "power levels aren't all that matter" is one of the biggest lies ever spoken by both the series and the fandom. Yes, that's all the matters. Hit is a character designed to not get brute forced and yet that is exactly how he always loses. He's never beaten by anything approaching actual strategic thinking but by classic Z rules of who's dick has the bigger number. This is a constant throughout the entire ToP tournament where people come up with something and it works.... until someone powers up or transforms to kick their shit it. Saying the Cell & Boo arcs didn't operate on power levels ruling everything is another thing that's just not factually right at all, just cause the numbers stopped doesn't mean the mechanics did.

In the previous tournament, Hit's very own power level was a bit lower than SSB Vegeta and Goku, but it was Hit's Time-Skip that gave Hit an advantage. Again, this is not Z. Even when Vegeta was losing, Beerus and Whis were making comments how Hit is frighteningly precise, and etc.

Yes and the battle started strategic with Goku actually coming up with a solution to counter Time Skip that didn't entail a power up.... until that's what it devolved into, a classic post-Freeza example of two people powering up in a game of brute force oneupmanship.

Goku had valid reasons for activating Kaioken, Hit kept getting faster and stronger, Goku saw no other way of matching Hit's technique in the latter half. It feels like some who watch these fights look at them at face value, like the front cover of a book.

[ekrolo2]

Goku had valid reasons for activating Kaioken, Hit kept getting faster and stronger, Goku saw no other way of matching Hit's technique in the latter half. It feels like some who watch these fights look at them at face value, like the front cover of a book.

Valid reasons yes, but it still took the battle down from an intriguing fight of wits to see who'll outsmart who into a classic Z style battle of who's going to power up more. I don't on principle hate the idea of technique and strategy mattering, I just think Super 90% of the time Super chooses to simply go with the Z route or to use it as an excuse for why everyone not called Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Jiren, Toppo and Hit aren't instantly getting one-shotted in droves.

There's also a weird discrepancy in that if a weak person has a "strategy" they can take on someone thousands of times above them. If you've got two people much closer together, then the "strategy" works considerably less. The fuck?

[Username2016]

Jiren being faster than time itself is really a ridiculous new feat in the franchise

Animation was good imo

I like how Hit landed a pretty good (that hole in his chest) blow on Jiren. It drives home the fact that yes, Jiren is fucking strong as strong can be, but he's not invincible.

[Arugela]

Eh. Honor Before Reason is a trope that has run through Dragon Ball's blood at times since the story began, so I can't fault Hit for acting the way he did.

I'm not sure why Hit didn't use his intangibility ability. My guess is that there is limited amount of time he could use it for since the technique runs on a lot on the skipped time he has stored in his own pocket dimension and using the Time-Skip would be more efficient. Plus, he can't move when he uses that technique. So it would be especially impractical to use such an ability is a battle royal setting like the Tournament Of Power as he would be a sitting duck.

I will fault it because the story is trying to paint Hit as being something of a team player but when putting himself in a position where you can have that matter in practical terms he just doesn't do it. Imagine if during the Spirit Bomb scene everyone tried to dog pile Goku and Goku tells the people who can protect him "NO! DON'T!". Which wouldn't happen because Goku's not that much of a pants shitting retard, even the Super version and I don't buy Hit essentially doing that here.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Martial artists be unpredictable and do their own thing in Dragon Ball, yo.

Pants shitting retard was a character back in DB. He was pretty affective. Almost beat Goku. Goku may have learned a thing or two from that fight. It would be funny if he purposely reused that to beat Jiren.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnbYC8oKVyU

Could we see the return of the stinky finger technique!!??



Can Jirens power overcome the Stinky finger technique? It may be more powerful than even time itself!

You know, I bet if they had Goku black fuse with Bacterian instead of Zamasu they could have beaten Vegetto.

Thinking about it, Bacterian should have been one of the warriors for universe 7. He would be unique amongst the fighters. And since he probably hasn't showered since that tournament his power would be so far beyond the Z fighters he could probably single handedly win the tournament!

BTW, how long ago was that tournament?

Edit: With Bacterians size and demeanour I sometimes wonder if he wasn't really a Saiyan in disguise(or an ancient Saiyan.). In which case he may be displaying the true pride of the entire Saiyan race. Maybe that is what Vegeta is always referring too! You'll notice Vegeta both talks about his pride and never showers until told by bulma! Maybe vegeta or goku hasn't showered since he heard about the tournament in preparation. Thinking even more, Freeza distinctly always calls them dirty sayians. Maybe he wasn't kidding. And as you notice in this and other episodes he's always staying far away from them... This really could put sayians in a whole new light. This could be why he didn't keep sayians in his fighter group. And why he or beerus wanted them dead! >< Not to mention with rebriahna basically opening her legs to use love stink this is not odd for the tournament so far. Maybe the sayians will give the TOP a taste of a true Saiyan warrior!

Vegeta: Because when a Saiyan fights dirty, a Saiyan fights dirty!

If not blame Bulma for making him shower and loose all of that caked on pride!

Vegeta: Damn that woman! She's knows nothing of a sayians true pride!
Bulma: Sure I don't. I just do your laundry!
Vegeta: Shutup woman. You could cost us the universe!

This brings up an interesting question. Is Bacterian related to the design of sayians in DB? There is a lot of similarity. Maybe they only develop super Saiyan after they start learning to shower and loose their traditional Saiyan powers. Should SSJ4 be covered in an aura of Saiyan pride? Could this be the difference between U6 and U7 sayians. does vegeta need to teach them again of their pride and make true warriors out of them... Is this why cauliflower has a slight lead on here other Saiyan friends?! Is this what makes Kale constantly hide behind walls and why she is repressed? How much could this explain?!

I just noticed both bacterian and dabura had a spit technique that could turn you to stone! ><

[GodKaio-Ken]

Its funny so many people disliked this fight. I personally thought it was the best in the tournament so far including Goku vs Jiren round 1.

[Torturephile]

[spoiler]

I will fault it because the story is trying to paint Hit as being something of a team player but when putting himself in a position where you can have that matter in practical terms he just doesn't do it. Imagine if during the Spirit Bomb scene everyone tried to dog pile Goku and Goku tells the people who can protect him "NO! DON'T!". Which wouldn't happen because Goku's not that much of a pants shitting retard, even the Super version and I don't buy Hit essentially doing that here.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Martial artists be unpredictable and do their own thing in Dragon Ball, yo.

Pants shitting retard was a character back in DB. He was pretty affective. Almost beat Goku. Goku may have learned a thing or two from that fight. It would be funny if he purposely reused that to beat Jiren.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnbYC8oKVyU

Could we see the return of the stinky finger technique!!??



Can Jirens power overcome the Stinky finger technique? It may be more powerful than even time itself!

You know, I bet if they had Goku black fuse with Bacterian instead of Zamasu they could have beaten Vegetto.

Thinking about it, Bacterian should have been one of the warriors for universe 7. He would be unique amongst the fighters. And since he probably hasn't showered since that tournament his power would be so far beyond the Z fighters he could probably single handedly win the tournament!

BTW, how long ago was that tournament?

Edit: With Bacterians size and demeanour I sometimes wonder if he wasn't really a Saiyan in disguise(or an ancient Saiyan.). In which case he may be displaying the true pride of the entire Saiyan race. Maybe that is what Vegeta is always referring too! You'll notice Vegeta both talks about his pride and never showers until told by bulma! Maybe vegeta or goku hasn't showered since he heard about the tournament in preparation. Thinking even more, Freeza distinctly always calls them dirty sayians. Maybe he wasn't kidding. And as you notice in this and other episodes he's always staying far away from them... This really could put sayians in a whole new light. This could be why he didn't keep sayians in his fighter group. And why he or beerus wanted them dead! >< Not to mention with rebriahna basically opening her legs to use love stink this is not odd for the tournament so far. Maybe the sayians will give the TOP a taste of a true Saiyan warrior!

Vegeta: Because when a Saiyan fights dirty, a Saiyan fights dirty!

If not blame Bulma for making him shower and loose all of that caked on pride!

Vegeta: Damn that woman! She's knows nothing of a sayians true pride!
Bulma: Sure I don't. I just do your laundry!
Vegeta: Shutup woman. You could cost us the universe!

This brings up an interesting question. Is Bacterian related to the design of sayians in DB? There is a lot of similarity. Maybe they only develop super Saiyan after they start learning to shower and loose their traditional Saiyan powers. Should SSJ4 be covered in an aura of Saiyan pride? Could this be the difference between U6 and U7 sayians. does vegeta need to teach them again of their pride and make true warriors out of them... Is this why cauliflower has a slight lead on here other Saiyan friends?! Is this what makes Kale constantly hide behind walls and why she is repressed? How much could this explain?!

I just noticed both bacterian and dabura had a spit technique that could turn you to stone! ><

[/spoiler]
Might as well team up with Krillin since he was wearing stinky shoes in this tournament.