Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 am

Comments on this episode:

- Does the opening narration imply that Goku would have beaten Jiren if his new form hadn't worn off
- Does Freeza really expect us to believe that none of the remaining fighters or any of the gods or angels in attendance can see them in that spot?
- "All debts are settled"? What about you murdering his best friends, his entire species, and destroying both of his home planets?
- The Zenos only just now figured out Jiren is strong?
- So wait, Jiren sensed Hit in his pocket dimension and broke through it like Goku did to block the attack? I guess that makes sense
- Now it looks like Hit is doing what he was doing against Goku and Vegeta in the earlier tournament, using time skip to prepare his attacks a split second after it ends so his opponents can't react to them, but Jiren is anticipating and countering him like Goku did
- Nice to finally see the Universe 6 Namekians, I know everyone was curious about them. It's interesting how they have a slightly different color scheme from Piccolo.
- I guess they never saw Piccolo when all of the teams were teleported in, and their Kaioshin and Champa never gave them information about him, despite facing him once before in a tournament...
- So now Vegeta is beating Ribrianne in base form when previously she was keeping up with him in SSJ. They really don't even try to make this consistent, do they?
- I know he expected Jiren to block that, but that is a killing move, isn't it?
- So can Jiren regenerate or is he just really tough to shake off the damage from Hit's attack like that?
- You know, if some other fighters knocked him off the edge or destroyed the ground under him right now, they'd manage to eliminate him...
- Okay, so as far as I can tell, the move works like this. Hit uses the time skip continuously to trap Jiren in a dimension where time is skipped, meaning he can't move, however he has to constantly maintain it by using his ki, and doing so drains him.
- Dammit Hit, you should have asked them to knock him out while they had the chance
- Even if he did manage to keep Jiren frozen until time ran out (which seems highly unlikely), Jiren would still be in the ring and thus not eliminated
- I'm guessing Hit diverted too much ki away from keeping Jiren frozen in order to use that attack. Figures something like this would happen. I don't see why everyone's so surprised, though. He was already resisting it and Hit said he needed to continuously use his power to keep it up. Besides, we've already seen that a strong enough ki can break through Hit's dimension, so this should be similar. It's not like it would help him if time were altered so he was never born, or if he was sent into the far past or future. Unfortunately Hit can't do that.
- I wonder why he did finishing moves against Kale and Goku but only bothered to actually ring out Hit... I'm disappointed he's out so early as I wanted him to last until the end. At least he did better than anyone else against Jiren so far, even Ultra Instinct Goku.
- I think this is also the first time we've seen Hit legitimately lose a fight. Nice how Champa seems to be understanding at least.
- So how does Daishinkan do that sky color changing thing, anyway? Is it just one of his powers?
- Foolish decision by Jiren. Let me enumerate the reasons why he should still be fighting.
1. Goku is still in the ring. He already saw him come back from seemingly complete defeat only to be even stronger, so why doesn't he finish him off so he doesn't do it again?
2. Jiren doesn't know the potential of all of the other fighters still in the ring. There's Freeza, who is up there with Goku and Hit, yet he knows nothing about him. And there are those two mysterious fighters from Universe 4. He has no way of knowing for sure there's no one left worth fighting.
3. Universe 11 has the fewest fighters remaining of all of the surviving universes. Even if they don't lose any more, if the tournament ends while another universe has more fighters, they'll still lose.
- Come on, you mean to tell me that neither Toppo nor Dyspo was fast enough to intercept that guy?
- I wonder if the Tournament of Power will last twice as many episodes as it has so far...
- So Monna has some kind of super instant-win attack? Why wasn't she using it before?

Overall very good episode despite lots of poor decisions on various characters' parts
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:26 am

So has anyone heard the theory going around that Hit might still be in the fight? We never saw either of the Zeno's on their God Pad pressing the button for Hit's elimination. From what I recall, we see them do that with most characters that get knocked out, especially important ones. So I find it strange that they didn't show that.

Hit's known for being a strategist, so perhaps what we see sitting in the Universe 6 seats is a new technique of his where he's created a physical phantom, tricking everyone into thinking that he got knocked out when in reality he's still in the arena hiding to attack at the right moment.

It's a pretty interesting theory. We did see the Grand Priest mention that Hit got knocked out, but perhaps later on off-screen he notices he's still in the fight but doesn't point it out. He probably would let the two Zeno's know that he's still there.

I would like this to be true, because the thought of Hit appearing outta nowhere and giving Jiren what he deserves, followed up with a line like "Never insult an Assassin's pride" just gets me so excited.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:28 am

Jables wrote:Fantastic episode.
- Freeza paying his debt to Goku was an interesting development and furthermore telling him about Ultra Instinct.
It wouldn't have been logical for Frieza to compromise his own position in the ToP. I sort of knew this would happen beforehand.
With a "monster" like Jiren, he should keep Goku alive, or all of Universe 7 could lose their existence.
Jables wrote: - I'm surprised Hit wasn't learning faster from Jiren's attacks and movements. Perhaps the difference in their power was so significantly higher than Hit's, he struggled to adapt. I'm glad Goku was able to spend some time studying the fight and hopefully develop a plan to attain Ultra Instinct again.
Honestly this seemed like a very desperate part on Hit's end, it just makes more sense that Hit wasn't improving at all. I'm a fan of him personally but I didn't see any issues with the outcome.
Jables wrote: - I'm a little shocked that Jiren doesn't consider Vegeta, Gohan or Freeza a threat to be honest.
I don't think either of them are capable of coming close to Goku the way he was fighting Jiren just last episode, at least without training.
It's likely Jiren himself has Ultra Instinct; as it is heavily implied he does. You don't have to be a God to achieve that, but all is said is that very few beings have accomplished it.
Jables wrote: - How does Goku plan to tap back into Ultra Instinct without a power source?
That I don't think we can answer. I hope the writers have an answer.
Jables wrote: - I think the question everyone is wondering right now is: What will wake up Jiren?
My guess: Vegeta, Gohan or Berserker Kale
Most likely not Kale, because if SSB Goku was really serious he could have taken her out of the ToP and without Kaioken.
Jables wrote: - I'm growing more curious what species Jiren is. I was previously thinking "Okay, if there is a Jiren in Universe 11, there must be one in Universe 12" but they confirm he is one of a kind. That is interesting to me. Perhaps, the God of Destruction from Universe 11 created Jiren. Possibly from dragon balls?
Maybe he is a mutant or some highly unusual species that is less frequent in the possible known Universes. Right now we can't say for sure.
Jables wrote: - MY PREVIOUS POINT MAKES ME EVEN MORE CONFUSED ALL OF THE SUDDEN. Aren't Dragon balls a Nemekian thing? Or do they have guardian species in every universe?
Perhaps not every Universe has Namekians with magical powers like Piccolo. Of course just speculation, we don't have much information.
Jables wrote: - I also don't think Jiren is the person who can defeat a God of Destruction for 1 reason: Wouldn't Beerus recognize him if he had previously lost to him in an arm wrestle?
There is more evidence implying Jiren can defeat a God of Destruction. And also the God's don't all have the same level of powers, some are weaker, some are stronger. Maybe he can't defeat all, but many? Two times there was mention of a "mortal that even a God of Destruction may not beat" and the second time this was mentioned, the camera aimed right at the God of Universe 11, then Belmond began bragging about Jiren showing the rest of the contestants what he is capable of. That is no coincidence.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:36 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:So has anyone heard the theory going around that Hit might still be in the fight? We never saw either of the Zeno's on their God Pad pressing the button for Hit's elimination. From what I recall, we see them do that with most characters that get knocked out, especially important ones. So I find it strange that they didn't show that.

Hit's known for being a strategist, so perhaps what we see sitting in the Universe 6 seats is a new technique of his where he's created a physical phantom, tricking everyone into thinking that he got knocked out when in reality he's still in the arena hiding to attack at the right moment.

It's a pretty interesting theory. We did see the Grand Priest mention that Hit got knocked out, but perhaps later on off-screen he notices he's still in the fight but doesn't point it out. He probably would let the two Zeno's know that he's still there.

I would like this to be true, because the thought of Hit appearing outta nowhere and giving Jiren what he deserves, followed up with a line like "Never insult an Assassin's pride" just gets me so excited.
Hit's phantom is intangible and is sitting down. Physically touching the seat?
That means Hit really is next to the Gatorade for good.
Last edited by Miracles on Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by mfwlegend3 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:52 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:So has anyone heard the theory going around that Hit might still be in the fight?
It's just Hit fans grasping for straws.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:15 am

mfwlegend3 wrote:
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:So has anyone heard the theory going around that Hit might still be in the fight?
It's just Hit fans grasping for straws.
What does the theory say?
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:26 am

Rewatching the climax of the episode, I've got say it's a hilarious that we have the big tense moment of Jiren breaking out of Hit's cage, underscored by the tense "Master and Student" track (I think that's what it's called; it played during Roshi's Final Kamehameha scene in 105) and it looks...totally narmy.

Like, it's just a wideshot of Jiren walking very slowly towards Hit like he's dragging the Stone of Shame behind him. Plus, some closeups of his thighs as he moves closer with the camera aimed right at his Action Man crotch. I get that it was always going to look bad after 109 and 110, but come on.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by TKA » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:08 am

It's weird that the whole point of the episode is "Jiren is so strong he breaks time!" when... we don't really know how strong you have to be to be able to do that. It's pretty much the same as saying "Jiren is so strong he breaks the color yellow!" or "Jiren is so strong he breaks the concept of love!" Pretty nonsensical stuff.

I haven't been keeping up. Did they use the same excuse of "Hit can't go all out and use his real techniques because he'd get disqualified for killing his opponent!" that they always use to justify him losing? Or was he just completely fed to fuel Jiren's hype train?
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:12 am

TKA wrote:It's weird that the whole point of the episode is "Jiren is so strong he breaks time!" when... we don't really know how strong you have to be to be able to do that. It's pretty much the same as saying "Jiren is so strong he breaks the color yellow!" or "Jiren is so strong he breaks the concept of love!" Pretty nonsensical stuff.

I haven't been keeping up. Did they use the same excuse of "Hit can't go all out and use his real techniques because he'd get disqualified for killing his opponent!" that they always use to justify him losing? Or was he just completely fed to fuel Jiren's hype train?
I actually think Hit considered Jiren such a threat that he would actually sacrifice himself in result of killing Jiren. He did mention "I'm doing my job", this implied one thing in my mind during the 2 times I watched this episode; he planned on ridding Jiren from the field if it meant disqualifying himself. He failed to even do that. Poor Hit. :P
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by TKA » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:25 am

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote: I actually think Hit considered Jiren such a threat that he would actually sacrifice himself in result of killing Jiren. He did mention "I'm doing my job", this implied one thing in my mind during the 2 times I watched this episode; he planned on ridding Jiren from the field if it meant disqualifying himself. He failed to even do that. Poor Hit. :P
Interesting. So they still have that excuse for Hit jobbing. Okay, gotcha.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Gig » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:29 am

Jables wrote:Aren't Dragon balls a Nemekian thing? Or do they have guardian species in every universe?
IIRC, The Dragon Balls made by Namekians are in reality made with small shards of the Super Dragon Balls... do I recall correctly?
And, as far as we know, there is only one set of Super Dragon Balls, which scatter in Universe 6 and 7. Noone (including Zuno) ever mentioned more Super DragonBall sets exist... at least, not yet.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:11 am

Things I Liked:

-Hit vs. Jiren was cool. Particularly liked Hit's final ability, freezing an opponent in time.
-Universe 6 felt like a team this episode, for the most part.
-Uhh... Freeza I guess?

Things I'm Mixed On:

-The animation felt all over the place. Some shots were good, others looked sloppy or were just straight up re-used. I guess every time Jiren defeats someone, he has to do that pose?
-I actually liked that Hit got eliminated, but this makes Jiren leaving Kale in-bounds even more bizarre. He had no problem taking out the assassin, but he leaves the raging Broly tribute in the arena?
-We interrupt Jiren vs. Hit to bring you this one minute clash with Ribrianne! Is it underwhelming? Yes! Is it likely padding? Absolutely! Is it perhaps leading to more meaningful things from Ribrianne? Can't say, but we can certainly hope so!

Things I Disliked:

-It's amazing how Super can introduce a perfectly logical reason to keep Jiren out of the action for several episodes and then immediately f*** it up just to try and make Jiren look cooler. Hit's ultimate technique would have been the perfect solution to have Universe 11 out of action for a while, as Jiren is frozen and the other two would have to protect him. Instead, Jiren breaks out of it because... he's a badass? And the reason given to keep him out of action instead is that he's meditating because no one else is worthy. Really? In the middle (literally) of a damn tournament? This writing decision was so stupid I think I may have actually lost a couple brain cells. *Sigh* Apologies, just had to let that all out.
-Jiren got a bit of extra characterization this episode. Turns out he's kind of a dick.
-Said it before and I'll say it again, the little cutaways to the Omni Kings just annoy me so much.

Overall, my breakdown may have given the impression that I hate this episode, but I actually don't. I thought the episode was pretty good. There were just a few glaring problems that stuck out to me. As always, the writing is the single biggest problem here. The action was all mostly good (barring the occasional ugly/re-used animation), but man did it feel like the writers blew it here. I guess we'll just have to see if next week can bring that up since I don't see episodes 113 or 114 doing so (for reasons I obviously won't say here because spoilers).
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:19 am

Tombstone1988 wrote:Things I Liked:

-Hit vs. Jiren was cool. Particularly liked Hit's final ability, freezing an opponent in time.
-Universe 6 felt like a team this episode, for the most part.
-Uhh... Freeza I guess?

Things I'm Mixed On:

-The animation felt all over the place. Some shots were good, others looked sloppy or were just straight up re-used. I guess every time Jiren defeats someone, he has to do that pose?
-I actually liked that Hit got eliminated, but this makes Jiren leaving Kale in-bounds even more bizarre. He had no problem taking out the assassin, but he leaves the raging Broly tribute in the arena?
-We interrupt Jiren vs. Hit to bring you this one minute clash with Ribrianne! Is it underwhelming? Yes! Is it likely padding? Absolutely! Is it perhaps leading to more meaningful things from Ribrianne? Can't say, but we can certainly hope so!

Things I Disliked:

-It's amazing how Super can introduce a perfectly logical reason to keep Jiren out of the action for several episodes and then immediately f*** it up just to try and make Jiren look cooler. Hit's ultimate technique would have been the perfect solution to have Universe 11 out of action for a while, as Jiren is frozen and the other two would have to protect him. Instead, Jiren breaks out of it because... he's a badass? And the reason given to keep him out of action instead is that he's meditating because no one else is worthy. Really? In the middle (literally) of a damn tournament? This writing decision was so stupid I think I may have actually lost a couple brain cells. *Sigh* Apologies, just had to let that all out.
-Jiren got a bit of extra characterization this episode. Turns out he's kind of a dick.
-Said it before and I'll say it again, the little cutaways to the Omni Kings just annoy me so much.

Overall, my breakdown may have given the impression that I hate this episode, but I actually don't. I thought the episode was pretty good. There were just a few glaring problems that stuck out to me. As always, the writing is the single biggest problem here. The action was all mostly good (barring the occasional ugly/re-used animation), but man did it feel like the writers blew it here. I guess we'll just have to see if next week can bring that up since I don't see episodes 113 or 114 doing so (for reasons I obviously won't say here because spoilers).
Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:46 am

Hitto's Cage of time was nice but in close combat his performance was worse than SSB Goku's against Jiren.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:15 am

JazzMazz wrote:Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
Yeah, that was easily the worst part of the episode, writing-wise. Personally, the fact that they introduced such a useful technique plot-wise and then threw it away for "hype" was annoying. Such wasted potential.

I'm pretty sure this scene is a common anime trope, the "failed heroic sacrifice." I'm pretty sure I remember Naruto and Bleach having similar instances. That scene you linked is quite similar and I did personally enjoy HNK's scene more, although I haven't watched HNK so I don't have context for an accurate comparison.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:22 am

Tombstone1988 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
Yeah, that was easily the worst part of the episode, writing-wise. Personally, the fact that they introduced such a useful technique plot-wise and then threw it away for "hype" was annoying. Such wasted potential.

I'm pretty sure this scene is a common anime trope, the "failed heroic sacrifice." I'm pretty sure I remember Naruto and Bleach having similar instances. That scene you linked is quite similar and I did personally enjoy HNK's scene more, although I haven't watched HNK so I don't have context for an accurate comparison.
I would recommend watching it, as it helped establish a lot of those common shonen tropes that are still used.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:37 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
Hit's plan was doomed to fail since there was no one on U6 that could have stopped Toppo and Dyspo from just attacking Hit, except maybe Kale. Plus, Jiren breaking Hit's hold with strength makes sense when you considered that Goku did the same thing in the Champa Saga when he outspeeded the Time-Skip with the Kaioken. And characters given massive monolog to a plan that is going to failed happens all the time. Death Note did it all the time.

As someone we have seen at least half of Fist of the North Star, I didn't reached that particular point, the similarities between the two scenes is paper thin. As Tombstone1988 points out, this is a common trope, sacrifices that amount to nothing despite all the build up, and Fist of the North Star scene would be more emotional since the person in question died in literal flames while Hit just got rung out and is still alive at the moment. So the emotional impact was never meant to be the same and if it was, Super would be inferior since Hit just lost the tournament compared to, someone literally burnt to death.

You can read this in Tv Troper under Senseless Sacrifice.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by sangofe » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:38 pm

Been quite a few solid episodes in row now. I've loved the last 5. Freeza... that troll. Love it.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:41 pm

sangofe wrote:Been quite a few solid episodes in row now. I've loved the last 5. Freeza... that troll. Love it.
Seriously, it's AMAZING how much of a treat Freeza is. For all the bitterness that Resurrection of F left for many, this latest and beloved incarnation of the galactic tyrant wouldn't have been possible without that story.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:07 pm

TKA wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote: I actually think Hit considered Jiren such a threat that he would actually sacrifice himself in result of killing Jiren. He did mention "I'm doing my job", this implied one thing in my mind during the 2 times I watched this episode; he planned on ridding Jiren from the field if it meant disqualifying himself. He failed to even do that. Poor Hit. :P
Interesting. So they still have that excuse for Hit jobbing. Okay, gotcha.
Nono.

Hit tried his hardest and failed. He even says "The moment I couldnt kill him with one hit I knew I had no chance" or something extremely similar.
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