Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:20 pm

JazzMazz wrote: Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
I feel as if Toriyama had to have read some HNK recently, because this whole business is starting to kind of feel like a weaksauce version of Kenshiro and Raoh's conflict. Even Ultra Instinct comes of as a poor man's Muso Tensei. I know it's all based in real martial arts concepts, but between that and Jiren trying his best to have Roah status in Super, the HNK vibe is too strong.

**sidenote, but I'm starting to think I'd like Jiren more if he had a horse and a cape.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:35 pm

BWri wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
I feel as if Toriyama had to have read some HNK recently, because this whole business is starting to kind of feel like a weaksauce version of Kenshiro and Raoh's conflict. Even Ultra Instinct comes of as a poor man's Muso Tensei. I know it's all based in real martial arts concepts, but between that and Jiren trying his best to have Roah status in Super, the HNK vibe is too strong.

**sidenote, but I'm starting to think I'd like Jiren more if he had a horse and a cape.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:53 pm

HeroR wrote:Hit's plan was doomed to fail since there was no one on U6 that could have stopped Toppo and Dyspo from just attacking Hit, except maybe Kale. Plus, Jiren breaking Hit's hold with strength makes sense when you considered that Goku did the same thing in the Champa Saga when he outspeeded the Time-Skip with the Kaioken.
I don't disagree that Hit's time was likely up (pun completely intended), but I feel you're thinking about this scenario far too narrowly. You are assuming that Hit's technique HAD to be channeled for it to keep working and it HAD to be similar in power to what he used against Goku. These are the two flaws that I feel lead to the episode's writing ruining itself, though. They could have very easily changed "Hit channels his energy into his ultimate technique" to "Hit pours all of his energy into his ultimate technique." The end result is still the same (Hit uses all of his energy against Jiren and ends up being eliminated) but the results are more meaningful. Instead of Jiren going, "Yeah, you all suck. I'm gonna take a nap in the middle of a tournament," it would be [Belmod saying], "Oh man! Jiren's frozen in time! Quick, Dyspo, Toppo! Protect him while he tries to break free!" It's way more logical, in my opinion.

Also, this is stated to be Hit's ultimate technique. It's clearly on another level above his basic Time-Skip. I mean, it was actually able to affect Jiren, so it must be stronger than his default skip. I could totally buy Hit pouring all of his energy into it and it locking down Jiren for several episodes (enough for other characters to do their stuff) before finally breaking free. Instead, we get more useless "hype" for Jiren and he decides to stop fighting because he's too cool for everyone else.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by avasatu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:25 pm

Fwahm wrote:
Arugela wrote:
Fwahm wrote: He was frozen in time! He wouldn't fall even if he had nothing to stand on.

He also was immediately free enough to put up a ki barrier, so he was free enough to levitate the whole time.

The entire point of this episode is that Jiren cannot be beaten by gimmicks.
The majority or all of the time they show Hits attack it is only affecting a small area around hit or his target. It's possibly they could have just taken both out to get jiren. He would not have to remove the time skip to get him. I'm assuming the entire ring was not held in Hits move.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? Jiren was frozen in time. He cannot be moved by gravity or anything else that isn't on his level

If the ground was destroyed, he would just float until he completely broke free, at which point he'd levitate back to the stage.
Right on. There was a shot of this exact thing happening right as Jiren was frozen. I don't see how people are downplaying and ignoring this. These are the same people who think Jiren was just overpowering Hit when he broke out of the dimension. How do you overpower a dimension in which you're frozen? (Hint: you display 4D power!)

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:37 am

In defence of all this "stronger than time" shenanigans, this is not the first time a character has overriden Hit's Time Skip simply by being stronger. Goku set that precedent way back in episode 39 when he was able to move during Time Skip in Kaioken Blue x10. Yeah we forgave it because it was cool and set to awesome music, but what was that if not establishing that Kaioken Blue x10 is "beyond time"?

He did it again in their rematch when he was able to break through Hit's pocket dimension in regular Blue. Jiren is already confirmed to be well above those levels, so him being able to do the same shouldn't be a shock.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:15 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
Hit's plan was doomed to fail since there was no one on U6 that could have stopped Toppo and Dyspo from just attacking Hit, except maybe Kale. Plus, Jiren breaking Hit's hold with strength makes sense when you considered that Goku did the same thing in the Champa Saga when he outspeeded the Time-Skip with the Kaioken. And characters given massive monolog to a plan that is going to failed happens all the time. Death Note did it all the time.

As someone we have seen at least half of Fist of the North Star, I didn't reached that particular point, the similarities between the two scenes is paper thin. As Tombstone1988 points out, this is a common trope, sacrifices that amount to nothing despite all the build up, and Fist of the North Star scene would be more emotional since the person in question died in literal flames while Hit just got rung out and is still alive at the moment. So the emotional impact was never meant to be the same and if it was, Super would be inferior since Hit just lost the tournament compared to, someone literally burnt to death.

You can read this in Tv Troper under Senseless Sacrifice.
Though its true its definitely an example of senseless sacrifice, I meant to say the way it was presented in similar fashion to how such scenes were handled in Hokuto No Ken and I provided an example, which there are dozens off, from the show.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:26 am

JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
Hit's plan was doomed to fail since there was no one on U6 that could have stopped Toppo and Dyspo from just attacking Hit, except maybe Kale. Plus, Jiren breaking Hit's hold with strength makes sense when you considered that Goku did the same thing in the Champa Saga when he outspeeded the Time-Skip with the Kaioken. And characters given massive monolog to a plan that is going to failed happens all the time. Death Note did it all the time.

As someone we have seen at least half of Fist of the North Star, I didn't reached that particular point, the similarities between the two scenes is paper thin. As Tombstone1988 points out, this is a common trope, sacrifices that amount to nothing despite all the build up, and Fist of the North Star scene would be more emotional since the person in question died in literal flames while Hit just got rung out and is still alive at the moment. So the emotional impact was never meant to be the same and if it was, Super would be inferior since Hit just lost the tournament compared to, someone literally burnt to death.

You can read this in Tv Troper under Senseless Sacrifice.
Though its true its definitely an example of senseless sacrifice, I meant to say the way it was presented in similar fashion to how such scenes were handled in Hokuto No Ken and I provided an example, which there are dozens off, from the show.
UI = Unconscious Transmigration Of Soul from HNK for 100% certain.

Not in the way they are described but the animation and the effect it has are 100% the same visually in terms of fighting style.

Hokuto No Ken is also a TOEI anime so visual similarities make sense on some level.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Gig » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:09 am

Uhm... why is Jiren floating during meditation, if flight is forbidden?

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:12 am

Gig wrote:Uhm... why is Jiren floating during meditation, if flight is forbidden?
His power transcends rules :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:49 am

Gig wrote:Uhm... why is Jiren floating during meditation, if flight is forbidden?
Too. Much. Power.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:27 pm

Jiren is approaching Kaiba levels of screwin the rules. XD.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:55 pm

Gig wrote:Uhm... why is Jiren floating during meditation, if flight is forbidden?
The rule never made any sense to begin with, so good on Jiren for ignoring it.
Also flight wasn't forbidden, so much as just being physically impossible, don't forget that Goku tried to fly, when they arrived on the stage.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:06 pm

Freeza saying to Goku that he's now cleared all personal debts when he lent Goku his genki was kinda funny. What about all of the stuff before that? :P

Eh. I didn't like that Hit went out within one episode. I know that he was up against that freak, Jiren, but I was thinking that the fight could possibly spill over into next episode. A reminder that Goku gets the multi-episode one-on-one spectacles 99% of the time. As it was, Hits' elimination was a bit underwhelming, imo. When Hit delivered the words of encouragement to his remaining team, I knew that it was over for him ( :( ). I liked the actual content of the fight, it's just that it felt a bit abrupt to me. It was good to see Jiren get somewhat phased for once. I guess that Jiren's vitals are also not a weakness... ?

I liked ekrolo2's scenario of getting the remaining Pride Troopers and U6 Saiyajins involved with Hit/Jiren to add more suspense to the mix. The big fight could've continued into the next episode (with Jiren "stopped" as the cliffhanger) with a race to try to prevent Hit from keeping Jiren immobilized. Some other stuff could've padded out the episode. Oh well, it's Super. Gotta appreciate that Hit did some cool stuff.

At least the show provided a reason for why Jiren just doesn't clear the board and get U11 the win. He feels that he has done his part.

It's funny seeing Goku offended by Jiren's words. At this stage in the franchise of the "battle power" ceiling, Jiren may be the final cap -- perhaps nothing for the remainder of the DB story can go beyond his level. He seems to have mastered every area to its highest potential... maybe. Jiren has been displaying some arrogance though in his own way, but it could be founded this time. The last time that the opposition looked this unbeatable was back during the fight against Freeza's final form on Namek. Crazy stuff.

An ongoing highlight in the latest string of episodes is seeing Ribrianne repeatedly being knocked through rock formations which used to be the tournament grounds. Gotta give her credit for coming back for more. :p

Oh yeah, the U6 Namekseijins have popped up. Perhaps some cool stuff with Piccolo is on the way. It's concerning though, because after this encounter... Piccolo may not be in-play much longer (Noooooo). Whatever happens, I just need to see the Gekiretsu Kodan!! Please, Super.

And that's my IN-DEPTH analysis of a DBS episode... !

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:05 pm

Super_Divine_Genki wrote:Freeza saying to Goku that he's now cleared all personal debts when he lent Goku his genki was kinda funny. What about all of the stuff before that? :P

Eh. I didn't like that Hit went out within one episode. I know that he was up against that freak, Jiren, but I was thinking that the fight could possibly spill over into next episode. A reminder that Goku gets the multi-episode one-on-one spectacles 99% of the time. As it was, Hits' elimination was a bit underwhelming, imo. When Hit delivered the words of encouragement to his remaining team, I knew that it was over for him ( :( ). I liked the actual content of the fight, it's just that it felt a bit abrupt to me. It was good to see Jiren get somewhat phased for once. I guess that Jiren's vitals are also not a weakness... ?

I liked ekrolo2's scenario of getting the remaining Pride Troopers and U6 Saiyajins involved with Hit/Jiren to add more suspense to the mix. The big fight could've continued into the next episode (with Jiren "stopped" as the cliffhanger) with a race to try to prevent Hit from keeping Jiren immobilized. Some other stuff could've padded out the episode. Oh well, it's Super. Gotta appreciate that Hit did some cool stuff.

At least the show provided a reason for why Jiren just doesn't clear the board and get U11 the win. He feels that he has done his part.

It's funny seeing Goku offended by Jiren's words. At this stage in the franchise of the "battle power" ceiling, Jiren may be the final cap -- perhaps nothing for the remainder of the DB story can go beyond his level. He seems to have mastered every area to its highest potential... maybe. Jiren has been displaying some arrogance though in his own way, but it could be founded this time. The last time that the opposition looked this unbeatable was back during the fight against Freeza's final form on Namek. Crazy stuff.

An ongoing highlight in the latest string of episodes is seeing Ribrianne repeatedly being knocked through rock formations which used to be the tournament grounds. Gotta give her credit for coming back for more. :p

Oh yeah, the U6 Namekseijins have popped up. Perhaps some cool stuff with Piccolo is on the way. It's concerning though, because after this encounter... Piccolo may not be in-play much longer (Noooooo). Whatever happens, I just need to see the Gekiretsu Kodan!! Please, Super.

And that's my IN-DEPTH analysis of a DBS episode... !
The thing about Jiren's line of nobody left being worth him getting involved. It's a premature statement given he doesn't know the full power of other characters, but what with him one-shotting Kale, Vegeta not really going out of his way to fight him, and Freeza straight up admitting he's going to avoid that monster Jiren, none of the SSB level opposition are really going out of their way to prove his statement false. I loved seeing Goku so offended for being call weak as well. Ribrianne is resilient I'll give her that for sure.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:24 pm

Super_Divine_Genki wrote:
Oh yeah, the U6 Namekseijins have popped up. Perhaps some cool stuff with Piccolo is on the way. It's concerning though, because after this encounter... Piccolo may not be in-play much longer (Noooooo). Whatever happens, I just need to see the Gekiretsu Kodan!! Please, Super.
If Piccolo and Gohan beat the Namekians I don't think there is anyone who could actually beat these 2 apart from Universe 11 so I think they are safe to the end.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:37 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Super_Divine_Genki wrote:
Oh yeah, the U6 Namekseijins have popped up. Perhaps some cool stuff with Piccolo is on the way. It's concerning though, because after this encounter... Piccolo may not be in-play much longer (Noooooo). Whatever happens, I just need to see the Gekiretsu Kodan!! Please, Super.
If Piccolo and Gohan beat the Namekians I don't think there is anyone who could actually beat these 2 apart from Universe 11 so I think they are safe to the end.
Don't be so sure. Berserker Kale could probably solo them both and surely Kale + Caulifla could take out Piccolo and Gohan. Aside from those two, Toppo and Dyspo would definitely be too much for Piccolo and Gohan, who else is still in it, honestly even Ribrianne and the other magical girl would give them enough trouble that I can't be sure Piccolo and Gohan would win. I wouldn't count out the potential power of U3's megazord, if that happens, and to me it seems incredibly likely. So, really, there's still a lot of fighter that could eliminate both Gohan and Piccolo. And despite teamwork, it's still very possible for Piccolo to get eliminated while working with Gohan even by a foe that you'd think Gohan could solo, just because Gohan is SO BAD at fighting. Like, Ribrianne, for example. I feel like she is definitely out of Piccolo's league on his own, but also Gohan, with a little difficulty, is probably enough by himself to take her down. With good teamwork, yeah, the two of them ought to be able to take Ribrianne out with little issue, expending little stamina, and leaving both in the ring, but, c'mon, this is Super, it's also entirely possible that in such a hypothetical fight Gohan looks like a complete tool and Piccolo feels the need to bail him out and gets eliminated even though Gohan should be able to defeat her, maybe with trouble, by himself. That's just how much the writers love to shit on these characters.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by lord turbo » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:43 pm

I think most, if not the majority of us saw this coming, but still sad to see Hit go even though he tries his hardest and put on a decent show. Also, I gotta say Freeza has improved dramatically as a character, he's not acting remotely the same as before, able to think ahead, scheming, analyzing the situation, and flat out admitting inferiority against others (Jiren) while bidding his time trying to work the system. I'm pleased, Freeza has made up for his abysmal portrayal during RoF and shows he has a lot of potential to take the series into different areas. It may be wishful thinking, but I do hope Freeza gets fully resurrected, there's still some untapped potential there. As for the episode it was mostly slow, but I give it rating of 6/10 for what it was trying to do.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:04 pm

Ziegander wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Super_Divine_Genki wrote:
Oh yeah, the U6 Namekseijins have popped up. Perhaps some cool stuff with Piccolo is on the way. It's concerning though, because after this encounter... Piccolo may not be in-play much longer (Noooooo). Whatever happens, I just need to see the Gekiretsu Kodan!! Please, Super.
If Piccolo and Gohan beat the Namekians I don't think there is anyone who could actually beat these 2 apart from Universe 11 so I think they are safe to the end.
Don't be so sure. Berserker Kale could probably solo them both and surely Kale + Caulifla could take out Piccolo and Gohan. Aside from those two, Toppo and Dyspo would definitely be too much for Piccolo and Gohan, who else is still in it, honestly even Ribrianne and the other magical girl would give them enough trouble that I can't be sure Piccolo and Gohan would win. I wouldn't count out the potential power of U3's megazord, if that happens, and to me it seems incredibly likely. So, really, there's still a lot of fighter that could eliminate both Gohan and Piccolo. And despite teamwork, it's still very possible for Piccolo to get eliminated while working with Gohan even by a foe that you'd think Gohan could solo, just because Gohan is SO BAD at fighting. Like, Ribrianne, for example. I feel like she is definitely out of Piccolo's league on his own, but also Gohan, with a little difficulty, is probably enough by himself to take her down. With good teamwork, yeah, the two of them ought to be able to take Ribrianne out with little issue, expending little stamina, and leaving both in the ring, but, c'mon, this is Super, it's also entirely possible that in such a hypothetical fight Gohan looks like a complete tool and Piccolo feels the need to bail him out and gets eliminated even though Gohan should be able to defeat her, maybe with trouble, by himself. That's just how much the writers love to shit on these characters.
To put it another way do you even see Gohan and Piccolo fighting, Kale, Caulifla or Ribrianne? I certainly don't.

Ribrianne just seems like a complete joke who refuses to go out and I dont think the Kale and Caulifla are good enough fighters to onock anyobe out from Universe 7. I won't be surprised if all of the current Universe 7 members make it to the final episodes and fight Dyspo, Toppo and Jiren.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by vegetaslegacy15 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:26 pm

I understand that vegeta, freeza, gohan, kale, and the two unknown fighters from universe 4 probably can't defeat jiren but I'm pretty confident that atleast freeza and vegeta have the ability to beat toppo and dyspo 1 on 1. Maybe not if they individually took both on, but they are definitely strong enough to fight them. Which should mean jiren fights them atleast as a safeguard.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Arugela » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:35 pm

Gig wrote:Uhm... why is Jiren floating during meditation, if flight is forbidden?
I don't think it's against the rules per say but they made it so nobody could do it easily. If they go over the level of power to bypass it I don't think they count it against them.

It seemed like they might have been flying during the jiren vs goku UI fight also. I think it's just an implemented limitation. Goku was testing this earlier.
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