Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:31 pm

vegetaslegacy15 wrote:I understand that vegeta, freeza, gohan, kale, and the two unknown fighters from universe 4 probably can't defeat jiren but I'm pretty confident that atleast freeza and vegeta have the ability to beat toppo and dyspo 1 on 1. Maybe not if they individually took both on, but they are definitely strong enough to fight them. Which should mean jiren fights them atleast as a safeguard.
Thry cpuod probably take Dyspi but I think Toppo is too much.

Jiren>Goku>Hit>Toppo I would say.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:52 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:Jiren > Goku > Hit > Toppo. I would say.
So Toppo stronger than Freeza and Vegeta, huh?
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:56 pm

I don't think so. If Vegeta's not even strong enough to take on Toppo, then I'll be sorely disappointed. Even so, Freeza and Vegeta working together should be plenty for Toppo and Dyspo. Either of them would trash Dyspo almost immediately, and then the two of them would be free to overwhelm Toppo, I should hope. Dyspo is barely SSG level. Both Vegeta and Golden Freeza are much, much stronger and faster than that.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:59 pm

Ziegander wrote:I don't think so. If Vegeta's not even strong enough to take on Toppo, then I'll be sorely disappointed. Even so, Freeza and Vegeta working together should be plenty for Toppo and Dyspo. Either of them would trash Dyspo almost immediately, and then the two of them would be free to overwhelm Toppo, I should hope. Dyspo is barely SSG level. Both Vegeta and Golden Freeza are much, much stronger and faster than that.
Oh man, that'd actually be a great idea for an episode!

Toppo proving to be too much for Golden Freeza or SSB Vegeta to take on individually, thus forcing them to work together! The tension between the two would be enough to crack omniverses!

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by vegetaslegacy15 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:11 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
vegetaslegacy15 wrote:I understand that vegeta, freeza, gohan, kale, and the two unknown fighters from universe 4 probably can't defeat jiren but I'm pretty confident that atleast freeza and vegeta have the ability to beat toppo and dyspo 1 on 1. Maybe not if they individually took both on, but they are definitely strong enough to fight them. Which should mean jiren fights them atleast as a safeguard.
Thry cpuod probably take Dyspi but I think Toppo is too much.

Jiren>Goku>Hit>Toppo I would say.
Hmm I'm not to sure about that. It took ssb kaioken goku to fight true golden freeza. And ssb kaioken goku was fighting evenly with toppo at the exhibition match. So I would say if anything freeza = toppo.

As for vegeta we know that his ssb is stronger than goku's ssb as of the goku black arc. Not sure what their power is in relation to each other now though.

Plus we know that super's power scaling is wonky.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:13 pm

vegetaslegacy15 wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
vegetaslegacy15 wrote:I understand that vegeta, freeza, gohan, kale, and the two unknown fighters from universe 4 probably can't defeat jiren but I'm pretty confident that atleast freeza and vegeta have the ability to beat toppo and dyspo 1 on 1. Maybe not if they individually took both on, but they are definitely strong enough to fight them. Which should mean jiren fights them atleast as a safeguard.
Thry cpuod probably take Dyspi but I think Toppo is too much.

Jiren>Goku>Hit>Toppo I would say.
Hmm I'm not to sure about that. It took ssb kaioken goku to fight true golden freeza. And ssb kaioken goku was fighting evenly with toppo at the exhibition match. So I would say if anything freeza = toppo.

As for vegeta we know that his ssb is stronger than goku's ssb as of the goku black arc. Not sure what their power is in relation to each other now though.

Plus we know that super's power scaling is wonky.
What are you talking about? True Golden Freeza was exactly equal to SSB Goku, not with Kaio-ken.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Retan » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:16 pm

Anyone else have a feeling that Freeza might eliminate Vegeta next episode setting Cabba off? Like Vegeta saves Cabba, and Freeza sees his chance?

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:38 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
BWri wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Thank you for making me not he only person angry about that writing choice. It makes even less sense considering Vados just had this massive monologue about how Hit was content with just keeping Jiren in place. To me, it just seemed like they really wanted to get Hit eliminated this episode for some reason.

Also, was it just me, or did Hits fight with Jiren this episode feel like an inferior lift off ofthis fight from Hokuto No Ken, they both basically follow the same formula, the difference being HNK did a better job at injecting emotion and personality into the fight.
I feel as if Toriyama had to have read some HNK recently, because this whole business is starting to kind of feel like a weaksauce version of Kenshiro and Raoh's conflict. Even Ultra Instinct comes of as a poor man's Muso Tensei. I know it's all based in real martial arts concepts, but between that and Jiren trying his best to have Roah status in Super, the HNK vibe is too strong.

**sidenote, but I'm starting to think I'd like Jiren more if he had a horse and a cape.
Jiren: Son Goku...I shall defeat you without stepping off my horse. I will seize the throne of the Heavens for myself.

I think I can dig it.

Jiren loses: Make no mistake....Jiren needs no help erasing himself! "Charges Aura and erases himself"
lmao! Might as well just go full HnK!
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by vegetaslegacy15 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:49 pm

[/quote]

What are you talking about? True Golden Freeza was exactly equal to SSB Goku, not with Kaio-ken.[/quote]

I just rewatched the scene and yeah you are right. None the less, I believe freeza could match up with toppo. As a matter of fact i'll bet you that one of the last fights will be freeza fighting toppo. The "emperor of evil" versuses the "warrior of justice"!
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:18 pm

Retan wrote:Anyone else have a feeling that Freeza might eliminate Vegeta next episode setting Cabba off? Like Vegeta saves Cabba, and Freeza sees his chance?
It's possible. The question must be asked, what is the point of Vegeta being in the tournament now? He won't be fighting Jiren since he's FAR FAR FAR FAR outclassed by him, and his rematch with Hit grinded to a halt after Hit was just eliminated in this episode, so is there a reason for him to stick around now? I'm saying all of this from a writing perspective of course. I wouldn't be surprised if he was eliminated soon, but I don't think it'll be by Freeza. I don't think Freeza would benefit by betraying U7 at the moment. It seems his #1 priority is learning Ultra Instinct and avoiding Jiren, and eliminating Vegeta wouldn't help with that.

He could fight Toppo, but I feel like they'd reserve that spot for Freeza given Toppo stands for all that is just and Freeza... well he's just an evil asshole.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:15 pm

Asura wrote:
Retan wrote:Anyone else have a feeling that Freeza might eliminate Vegeta next episode setting Cabba off? Like Vegeta saves Cabba, and Freeza sees his chance?
It's possible. The question must be asked, what is the point of Vegeta being in the tournament now? He won't be fighting Jiren since he's FAR FAR FAR FAR outclassed by him, and his rematch with Hit grinded to a halt after Hit was just eliminated in this episode, so is there a reason for him to stick around now? I'm saying all of this from a writing perspective of course. I wouldn't be surprised if he was eliminated soon, but I don't think it'll be by Freeza. I don't think Freeza would benefit by betraying U7 at the moment. It seems his #1 priority is learning Ultra Instinct and avoiding Jiren, and eliminating Vegeta wouldn't help with that.

He could fight Toppo, but I feel like they'd reserve that spot for Freeza given Toppo stands for all that is just and Freeza... well he's just an evil asshole.
I think it would be wonderfully ironic and a refreshing contrast to Vegeta's usual role of the resident Worf if he ended up winning the tournament by avoiding reckless fights with the big guns and racking up points by taking out the fodder.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by mAcChaos » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:37 pm

Vegeta and Freeza have no chance against Toppo.

SSB Kaioken Goku = Toppo, and that's stronger than both Vegeta and Freeza. Maybe if they worked together though.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:07 am

BWri wrote:
GodKaio-Ken wrote:
BWri wrote: I feel as if Toriyama had to have read some HNK recently, because this whole business is starting to kind of feel like a weaksauce version of Kenshiro and Raoh's conflict. Even Ultra Instinct comes of as a poor man's Muso Tensei. I know it's all based in real martial arts concepts, but between that and Jiren trying his best to have Roah status in Super, the HNK vibe is too strong.

**sidenote, but I'm starting to think I'd like Jiren more if he had a horse and a cape.
Jiren: Son Goku...I shall defeat you without stepping off my horse. I will seize the throne of the Heavens for myself.

I think I can dig it.

Jiren loses: Make no mistake....Jiren needs no help erasing himself! "Charges Aura and erases himself"
lmao! Might as well just go full HnK!
Well, they are already kinda of doing that, but instead of Jiren being the one talking himself up, Toppo's really been doing all the talking for him.

I would like it if Jiren said to some random mook...

Jiren: If you can't even penetrate my aura, then you are too weak to pose even the slightest challenge for me.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:26 am

Asura wrote:
Retan wrote:Anyone else have a feeling that Freeza might eliminate Vegeta next episode setting Cabba off? Like Vegeta saves Cabba, and Freeza sees his chance?
It's possible. The question must be asked, what is the point of Vegeta being in the tournament now? He won't be fighting Jiren since he's FAR FAR FAR FAR outclassed by him, and his rematch with Hit grinded to a halt after Hit was just eliminated in this episode, so is there a reason for him to stick around now? I'm saying all of this from a writing perspective of course. I wouldn't be surprised if he was eliminated soon, but I don't think it'll be by Freeza. I don't think Freeza would benefit by betraying U7 at the moment. It seems his #1 priority is learning Ultra Instinct and avoiding Jiren, and eliminating Vegeta wouldn't help with that.

He could fight Toppo, but I feel like they'd reserve that spot for Freeza given Toppo stands for all that is just and Freeza... well he's just an evil asshole.
With that logic everyone but Goku should be eliminated from U7 then. What's the point of Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids? Freeza too he even said it himself he's no match for Jiren.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:25 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: With that logic everyone but Goku should be eliminated from U7 then. What's the point of Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids? Freeza too he even said it himself he's no match for Jiren.
This is why it bugs me that Jiren is being pushed as the traditional "final boss" character of the arc. Yeah he's the strongest character there and a real problem if he goes on the attack, but he's just one guy and it's not like beating him wins the tournament. There's still everyone else to contend with, and with the kind of booking Jiren is getting the person who beats him will probably be gassed out and vulnerable to the weaker warriors.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:55 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: With that logic everyone but Goku should be eliminated from U7 then. What's the point of Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids? Freeza too he even said it himself he's no match for Jiren.
This is why it bugs me that Jiren is being pushed as the traditional "final boss" character of the arc. Yeah he's the strongest character there and a real problem if he goes on the attack, but he's just one guy and it's not like beating him wins the tournament. There's still everyone else to contend with, and with the kind of booking Jiren is getting the person who beats him will probably be gassed out and vulnerable to the weaker warriors.
That is primarily why I like it! Like you said it is like he is like the "final boss" but beating him doesn't mean you win, I think that is great it is a different spin on things. Whoever knocks Jiren out will actually be doing all the remaining fighters a favour not just their universe, so if someone beats Jiren it could end up working against them. For example hypothetically Cabba beats Jiren then U7 come in and wreck house on U6 all of Cabba's hard work in beating Jiren would be undone just like that.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:57 am

mAcChaos wrote:Vegeta and Freeza have no chance against Toppo.

SSB Kaioken Goku = Toppo, and that's stronger than both Vegeta and Freeza. Maybe if they worked together though.
That was exactly my idea! Imagine the hilarity and tension that would ensue from Vegeta having to honestly work together with Freeza to take down a mighty foe like Toppo!

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:09 am

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
TKA wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote: I actually think Hit considered Jiren such a threat that he would actually sacrifice himself in result of killing Jiren. He did mention "I'm doing my job", this implied one thing in my mind during the 2 times I watched this episode; he planned on ridding Jiren from the field if it meant disqualifying himself. He failed to even do that. Poor Hit. :P
Interesting. So they still have that excuse for Hit jobbing. Okay, gotcha.
Nono.

Hit tried his hardest and failed. He even says "The moment I couldnt kill him with one hit I knew I had no chance" or something extremely similar.
He didn't say kill.

That's why I asked. Just doesn't seem like he'd be using his kill moves.

I don't respect Toei's writing ability, but throwing Hit completely under the bus doesn't seem like something a rational writer would do given all the episodes spent establishing him.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:43 am

Hit did a lot better than I expected when you look at the steaming dump Jiren took on 20x Kaioken Goku. It didn't amount to anything in the end but he gave it a good effort.

Jiren going into "I'm too good for this" mode at the end really pissed me off. He's just about everything I loathe about Brock Lesnar realized as an anime character. Guess he's too important to actually put in work outside PPVs too. :x

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:35 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:Vegeta and Freeza have no chance against Toppo.

SSB Kaioken Goku = Toppo, and that's stronger than both Vegeta and Freeza. Maybe if they worked together though.
That was exactly my idea! Imagine the hilarity and tension that would ensue from Vegeta having to honestly work together with Freeza to take down a mighty foe like Toppo!
There's no real proof of that since with Blue alone, Goku outpaced Toppo who couldn't even touch him. And this is Goku after he fought someone while Toppo was fresh.
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