Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:37 pm

Retan wrote:Anyone else have a feeling that Freeza might eliminate Vegeta next episode setting Cabba off? Like Vegeta saves Cabba, and Freeza sees his chance?
Still not really sure how eliminating one of his own team mates benefits him if really wants to be alive in Universe 7... :P
Unless some of us think he's converting to another Universe?
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:40 pm

HeroR wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:Vegeta and Freeza have no chance against Toppo.

SSB Kaioken Goku = Toppo, and that's stronger than both Vegeta and Freeza. Maybe if they worked together though.
That was exactly my idea! Imagine the hilarity and tension that would ensue from Vegeta having to honestly work together with Freeza to take down a mighty foe like Toppo!
There's no real proof of that since with Blue alone, Goku outpaced Toppo who couldn't even touch him. And this is Goku after he fought someone while Toppo was fresh.
Toppo was powering up as well so he was not at full power.

Toppo is currently the strongest active fighter on the arena right now.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:04 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Asura wrote:
Retan wrote:Anyone else have a feeling that Freeza might eliminate Vegeta next episode setting Cabba off? Like Vegeta saves Cabba, and Freeza sees his chance?
It's possible. The question must be asked, what is the point of Vegeta being in the tournament now? He won't be fighting Jiren since he's FAR FAR FAR FAR outclassed by him, and his rematch with Hit grinded to a halt after Hit was just eliminated in this episode, so is there a reason for him to stick around now? I'm saying all of this from a writing perspective of course. I wouldn't be surprised if he was eliminated soon, but I don't think it'll be by Freeza. I don't think Freeza would benefit by betraying U7 at the moment. It seems his #1 priority is learning Ultra Instinct and avoiding Jiren, and eliminating Vegeta wouldn't help with that.

He could fight Toppo, but I feel like they'd reserve that spot for Freeza given Toppo stands for all that is just and Freeza... well he's just an evil asshole.
With that logic everyone but Goku should be eliminated from U7 then. What's the point of Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids? Freeza too he even said it himself he's no match for Jiren.
Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids aren't Vegeta. Vegeta is always supposed to be the one fighting the same people Goku fights, we've seen it in every single arc of Super thus far (except for BoG arc). Now that Goku has far surpassed Vegeta with his Ultra Instinct form, and there are no interesting match-ups for Vegeta now that Hit is gone, the only connection he has there is Cabba. He would be sidelined to fight fodder like Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids are, but Vegeta shouldn't be doing that given that he's essentially the main character right below Goku.

I am saying all of this from a writing standpoint of Vegeta's character. Vegeta's role shouldn't be the same as Piccolo and the Android's roles.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:16 pm

Asura wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Asura wrote:
It's possible. The question must be asked, what is the point of Vegeta being in the tournament now? He won't be fighting Jiren since he's FAR FAR FAR FAR outclassed by him, and his rematch with Hit grinded to a halt after Hit was just eliminated in this episode, so is there a reason for him to stick around now? I'm saying all of this from a writing perspective of course. I wouldn't be surprised if he was eliminated soon, but I don't think it'll be by Freeza. I don't think Freeza would benefit by betraying U7 at the moment. It seems his #1 priority is learning Ultra Instinct and avoiding Jiren, and eliminating Vegeta wouldn't help with that.

He could fight Toppo, but I feel like they'd reserve that spot for Freeza given Toppo stands for all that is just and Freeza... well he's just an evil asshole.
With that logic everyone but Goku should be eliminated from U7 then. What's the point of Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids? Freeza too he even said it himself he's no match for Jiren.
Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids aren't Vegeta. Vegeta is always supposed to be the one fighting the same people Goku fights, we've seen it in every single arc of Super thus far (except for BoG arc). Now that Goku has far surpassed Vegeta with his Ultra Instinct form, and there are no interesting match-ups for Vegeta now that Hit is gone, the only connection he has there is Cabba. He would be sidelined to fight fodder like Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids are, but Vegeta shouldn't be doing that given that he's essentially the main character right below Goku.

I am saying all of this from a writing standpoint of Vegeta's character. Vegeta's role shouldn't be the same as Piccolo and the Android's roles.
Thr only people who are not 'fodder' is Jiren and Goku with Ultra Instinct. Everyone else is just here to have a good fight before getting beat.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:33 pm

Asura wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Asura wrote:
It's possible. The question must be asked, what is the point of Vegeta being in the tournament now? He won't be fighting Jiren since he's FAR FAR FAR FAR outclassed by him, and his rematch with Hit grinded to a halt after Hit was just eliminated in this episode, so is there a reason for him to stick around now? I'm saying all of this from a writing perspective of course. I wouldn't be surprised if he was eliminated soon, but I don't think it'll be by Freeza. I don't think Freeza would benefit by betraying U7 at the moment. It seems his #1 priority is learning Ultra Instinct and avoiding Jiren, and eliminating Vegeta wouldn't help with that.

He could fight Toppo, but I feel like they'd reserve that spot for Freeza given Toppo stands for all that is just and Freeza... well he's just an evil asshole.
With that logic everyone but Goku should be eliminated from U7 then. What's the point of Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids? Freeza too he even said it himself he's no match for Jiren.
Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids aren't Vegeta. Vegeta is always supposed to be the one fighting the same people Goku fights, we've seen it in every single arc of Super thus far (except for BoG arc). Now that Goku has far surpassed Vegeta with his Ultra Instinct form, and there are no interesting match-ups for Vegeta now that Hit is gone, the only connection he has there is Cabba. He would be sidelined to fight fodder like Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids are, but Vegeta shouldn't be doing that given that he's essentially the main character right below Goku.

I am saying all of this from a writing standpoint of Vegeta's character. Vegeta's role shouldn't be the same as Piccolo and the Android's roles.
Why shouldn't Vegeta's role be that? It's silly how he managed to be even close to Goku in the first place, Goku should have left him in the dust ages ago, now with Kaioken and Ultra Instinct we're getting what should have happened ages ago.

Vegeta has been far more interesting this arc then he's ever been for ages, at the start he didn't care about Goku off to train and get stronger, I just think there is so much more they can do with Vegeta other than to have him always be number two next Goku. Heck Goku himself has even moved onto other rivals.

Hopefully after this arc both Goku and Vegeta finally leave each other and move on, like EoZ seems to imply they did.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:52 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Asura wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: With that logic everyone but Goku should be eliminated from U7 then. What's the point of Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids? Freeza too he even said it himself he's no match for Jiren.
Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids aren't Vegeta. Vegeta is always supposed to be the one fighting the same people Goku fights, we've seen it in every single arc of Super thus far (except for BoG arc). Now that Goku has far surpassed Vegeta with his Ultra Instinct form, and there are no interesting match-ups for Vegeta now that Hit is gone, the only connection he has there is Cabba. He would be sidelined to fight fodder like Gohan, Piccolo, and the Androids are, but Vegeta shouldn't be doing that given that he's essentially the main character right below Goku.

I am saying all of this from a writing standpoint of Vegeta's character. Vegeta's role shouldn't be the same as Piccolo and the Android's roles.
Why shouldn't Vegeta's role be that? It's silly how he managed to be even close to Goku in the first place, Goku should have left him in the dust ages ago, now with Kaioken and Ultra Instinct we're getting what should have happened ages ago.

Vegeta has been far more interesting this arc then he's ever been for ages, at the start he didn't care about Goku off to train and get stronger, I just think there is so much more they can do with Vegeta other than to have him always be number two next Goku. Heck Goku himself has even moved onto other rivals.

Hopefully after this arc both Goku and Vegeta finally leave each other and move on, like EoZ seems to imply they did.
Vegeta is interesting this arc? More than he's ever been? In what sense? He was almost completely absent for the large majority of the arc until the tournament actually started, and since then his only highlights have been him fighting Frost and Ribrianne, and regressing as a character back to his dumb prideful "I AM VEGETA-SAMA I AM THE BEST EVER I WILL WIN THIS TOURNAMENT MYSELF" shit, and him refusing to give energy when even Freeza gave energy just makes him look even worse. Vegeta's character has been absolute trash this arc, which is why I'm saying they may as well just eliminate him now since they aren't even going to let him fight Jiren, or have a rematch with Hit.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Zagacious » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:18 pm

Asura wrote:Vegeta is interesting this arc? More than he's ever been? In what sense? He was almost completely absent for the large majority of the arc until the tournament actually started, and since then his only highlights have been him fighting Frost and Ribrianne, and regressing as a character back to his dumb prideful "I AM VEGETA-SAMA I AM THE BEST EVER I WILL WIN THIS TOURNAMENT MYSELF" shit, and him refusing to give energy when even Freeza gave energy just makes him look even worse. Vegeta's character has been absolute trash this arc, which is why I'm saying they may as well just eliminate him now since they aren't even going to let him fight Jiren, or have a rematch with Hit.
It's one of those things people keep saying on the forums over and over again until people start to actually believe it's true, which is pretty funny cause it's true Vegeta was pretty much absent for a huge majority of the arc :lol: like people actually believing the flying rule is still being followed when it's extremely obvious the writers just completely forgot about it.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:15 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Asura wrote:Vegeta is interesting this arc? More than he's ever been? In what sense? He was almost completely absent for the large majority of the arc until the tournament actually started, and since then his only highlights have been him fighting Frost and Ribrianne, and regressing as a character back to his dumb prideful "I AM VEGETA-SAMA I AM THE BEST EVER I WILL WIN THIS TOURNAMENT MYSELF" shit, and him refusing to give energy when even Freeza gave energy just makes him look even worse. Vegeta's character has been absolute trash this arc, which is why I'm saying they may as well just eliminate him now since they aren't even going to let him fight Jiren, or have a rematch with Hit.
It's one of those things people keep saying on the forums over and over again until people start to actually believe it's true, which is pretty funny cause it's true Vegeta was pretty much absent for a huge majority of the arc :lol: like people actually believing the flying rule is still being followed when it's extremely obvious the writers just completely forgot about it.
Give me one example of the characters flying that wasn't caused by the force of a ki blast, as in the case of the spirit bomb pushing Goku back in the air. Every single time someone says they broke the flying rule they fail to see that characters are either jumping or floating downwards.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:12 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
BWri wrote:
GodKaio-Ken wrote:
Jiren: Son Goku...I shall defeat you without stepping off my horse. I will seize the throne of the Heavens for myself.

I think I can dig it.

Jiren loses: Make no mistake....Jiren needs no help erasing himself! "Charges Aura and erases himself"
lmao! Might as well just go full HnK!
Well, they are already kinda of doing that, but instead of Jiren being the one talking himself up, Toppo's really been doing all the talking for him.

I would like it if Jiren said to some random mook...

Jiren: If you can't even penetrate my aura, then you are too weak to pose even the slightest challenge for me.
Toppo literally said to U3 :lol:
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:53 am

BWri wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
BWri wrote: lmao! Might as well just go full HnK!
Well, they are already kinda of doing that, but instead of Jiren being the one talking himself up, Toppo's really been doing all the talking for him.

I would like it if Jiren said to some random mook...

Jiren: If you can't even penetrate my aura, then you are too weak to pose even the slightest challenge for me.
Toppo literally said to U3 :lol:
I made note of that. I just think it would be cool to have Jiren actually say it instead of his "whipping boy".

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:24 am

Zagacious wrote:
Asura wrote:Vegeta is interesting this arc? More than he's ever been? In what sense? He was almost completely absent for the large majority of the arc until the tournament actually started, and since then his only highlights have been him fighting Frost and Ribrianne, and regressing as a character back to his dumb prideful "I AM VEGETA-SAMA I AM THE BEST EVER I WILL WIN THIS TOURNAMENT MYSELF" shit, and him refusing to give energy when even Freeza gave energy just makes him look even worse. Vegeta's character has been absolute trash this arc, which is why I'm saying they may as well just eliminate him now since they aren't even going to let him fight Jiren, or have a rematch with Hit.
It's one of those things people keep saying on the forums over and over again until people start to actually believe it's true, which is pretty funny cause it's true Vegeta was pretty much absent for a huge majority of the arc :lol: like people actually believing the flying rule is still being followed when it's extremely obvious the writers just completely forgot about it.
We do have to remember things are moving so fast the normal human eye cannot see anything going on. And there have even been a few moments earlier in this Universe Survival Tournament folks thought characters were flying when in fact it looked like leaping/jumping or whatever, these were episodes I watched 2-3 times (can't recall them offhand right now..) Also consider the average episode that happens to span around 1 minute in real time, and I think some were less than 60 seconds.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:29 am

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
We do have to remember things are moving so fast the normal human eye cannot see anything going on. And there have even been a few moments earlier in this Universe Survival Tournament folks thought characters were flying when in fact it looked like leaping/jumping or whatever, these were episodes I watched 2-3 times (can't recall them offhand right now..) Also consider the average episode that happens to span around 1 minute in real time, and I think some were less than 60 seconds.
This is also annoying to read 'the no flying rule is being ignored and the writers forgot', when characters in the original Dragon Ball did the same thing but couldn't fly. It appears flight to us since things are moving slowly, otherwise we would be just seeing a fancy light show.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:22 am

JazzMazz wrote:
BWri wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Well, they are already kinda of doing that, but instead of Jiren being the one talking himself up, Toppo's really been doing all the talking for him.

I would like it if Jiren said to some random mook...

Jiren: If you can't even penetrate my aura, then you are too weak to pose even the slightest challenge for me.
Toppo literally said to U3 :lol:
I made note of that. I just think it would be cool to have Jiren actually say it instead of his "whipping boy".
That's what I meant by "full HnK". Just have Jiren cut Raoh-esque promos and give him a cape and a horse. That'll get him over even more than his power feats.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:25 am

Asura wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Asura wrote:Vegeta is interesting this arc? More than he's ever been? In what sense? He was almost completely absent for the large majority of the arc until the tournament actually started, and since then his only highlights have been him fighting Frost and Ribrianne, and regressing as a character back to his dumb prideful "I AM VEGETA-SAMA I AM THE BEST EVER I WILL WIN THIS TOURNAMENT MYSELF" shit, and him refusing to give energy when even Freeza gave energy just makes him look even worse. Vegeta's character has been absolute trash this arc, which is why I'm saying they may as well just eliminate him now since they aren't even going to let him fight Jiren, or have a rematch with Hit.
It's one of those things people keep saying on the forums over and over again until people start to actually believe it's true, which is pretty funny cause it's true Vegeta was pretty much absent for a huge majority of the arc :lol: like people actually believing the flying rule is still being followed when it's extremely obvious the writers just completely forgot about it.
Give me one example of the characters flying that wasn't caused by the force of a ki blast, as in the case of the spirit bomb pushing Goku back in the air. Every single time someone says they broke the flying rule they fail to see that characters are either jumping or floating downwards.
I believe Jiren is hovering in his meditation pose, but I suppose Jiren defies many universal laws like time :roll:
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:54 am

Another very enjoyable episode :mrgreen:

So Hit got his ass completely kicked, and we don't know anything more about him or Jiren than they are just strong, I want to learn more about them.

Wonder if UE6 Namekians are evil, as opposed to Namekians of UE7 following same logic than with Saiyajins.

Please remove Ribrianne I've seen enough of her and UE2.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:07 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:Another very enjoyable episode :mrgreen:

So Hit got his ass completely kicked, and we don't know anything more about him or Jiren than they are just strong, I want to learn more about them.

Wonder if UE6 Namekians are evil, as opposed to Namekians of UE7 following same logic than with Saiyajins.

Please remove Ribrianne I've seen enough of her and UE2.
We do know a fair bit about Hit.

Its Jiren who is the one we really don't know anything about.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:33 am

JazzMazz wrote: We do know a fair bit about Hit.
Compared to Jiren yeah...

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:52 am

BWri wrote:
Asura wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
It's one of those things people keep saying on the forums over and over again until people start to actually believe it's true, which is pretty funny cause it's true Vegeta was pretty much absent for a huge majority of the arc :lol: like people actually believing the flying rule is still being followed when it's extremely obvious the writers just completely forgot about it.
Give me one example of the characters flying that wasn't caused by the force of a ki blast, as in the case of the spirit bomb pushing Goku back in the air. Every single time someone says they broke the flying rule they fail to see that characters are either jumping or floating downwards.
I believe Jiren is hovering in his meditation pose, but I suppose Jiren defies many universal laws like time :roll:
I'd say that's nitpicking. I wouldn't really equate slightly floating/hovering off the ground while meditating to equate to flying. Most people I see outraged at the "writers forgot character's can't fly!" rule is people just failing to notice that characters are either jumping or you can see them slowly floating downwards in the air via the background moving up.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:03 pm

Asura wrote:
BWri wrote:
Asura wrote:
Give me one example of the characters flying that wasn't caused by the force of a ki blast, as in the case of the spirit bomb pushing Goku back in the air. Every single time someone says they broke the flying rule they fail to see that characters are either jumping or floating downwards.
I believe Jiren is hovering in his meditation pose, but I suppose Jiren defies many universal laws like time :roll:
I'd say that's nitpicking. I wouldn't really equate slightly floating/hovering off the ground while meditating to equate to flying. Most people I see outraged at the "writers forgot character's can't fly!" rule is people just failing to notice that characters are either jumping or you can see them slowly floating downwards in the air via the background moving up.
It might be nitpicking if the rule were actually "no flying allowed," but in actuality Daishinkan precisely said, "Skills to prevent falling, such as floating, cannot be used," emphasis mine. It was never said that flying was against the rules, only that any similar skill that might prevent falling out of the arena couldn't be used. Goku tested this by trying to fly and found that he was unable to fly. So, yeah, Jiren can levitate but Goku can't fly, because Jiren's just that powerful. And also because the writers are ass.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by dbs fanboy » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:58 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
dbs fanboy wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: It's not a matter of real world dynamics for me, it's making some sense as its own thing, which Super's idea of "strategery & tactix!" doesn't. Why the fuck would Krillin's +30 years of experience at aaaallll save him if the guy he's fighting can smash him out of bounds so fast Krillin can't even register it. Strategy and tactics, when used right in Dragon Ball, work just fine. Everyone vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc is a perfectly example, nobody gets +1000000000000 PL points because of experience or whatever the fuck, it's a combination of dumb luck and varied power usage that ultimately lets them beat someone who'd usually kick their shit in even severely wounded. In Super? Strategy and tactics is just a nothing statement that makes worthless fodder like the Earthlings stand toe to toe with opponents who are completely beyond them in every capacity. Until the classic Z rule kicks in and power = trumps all.
You're right, thought i can't see how does this apply to this tournament. There's a vast difference between those situations on the saiyan saga and this arc. The difference is the fact, that on those fights, the warriors were trying to kill each other, so yeah, no problem. Howevern in the ToP , killing is not allowed so a lot of strong characters have to hold back their power, giving the weaker characters an opportunity to do something against them, even if it's not much, as the objective is to throw everyone out of bounds, without necessarily knocking them out.
For example the talisman user from U4 could have (maybe) defeated stronger characters such as maybe Gohan and co by using deception, to beat them and she wasn't defeated on a classical way. Krillin defeated that wolf guy (forgot his name) by outsmarting him and blocking the only way he could sense him, and use the brief moment to threw him off.

If killing was allowed, or knocking out the opponent were the only rules, then yeah, even with a lot of strategy, the weakling would only be able to try to survive.

So far, the only times i have seen super bullshitting it's way with these fights, were in this recent match, and when Roshi was able to defeat the bird guy by using power (even thought he put EVERYTHING on that kamehameha)
This is by far the laziest and most wrong defense of the practice. Goku powers up to a higher strength just fine and he smashes the Ginyu Force's entire shit in WITHOUT killing them! FFS! Goku makes himself considerably more powerful then Nappa and in the burst of a moment can hit him precisely enough to leave him disabled, but alive. Cell is leagues above Vegeta but he doesn't kill him when he smashes him in the back while suppressed.

Can we please by Thor's fucking beard stop acting like everyone's too incompetent/stupid to fight at higher levels of power without killing somebody?
But wouldn't the tournament's rules still provide a way for weaker characters to hold their own? I don't know, given the fact that to defeat someone you just need to knock them out, that the own environment could be used to plan a strategy while hiding from other opponents, and that weird atacks/techniques could prove to be effective under certain circumstances....

If character X it's much stronger than character Y but character Y knows a technique that allows him/her to mask his/her identity completely (being 100% invisible and unnoticeable) and knows an attack that could poison the opponent (not necessarily in a kethal way) couldn't character Y still win the fight?

Roshi being able to dodge someone much faster than him may not make sense (depending on the gap of power thought) but i don't see any problem on him defeating that guy by using hypnosis, making him fall asleep (even thought it didn't work on ep 105)

Of course as i said before, super still fucked up some moments with some episodes having a character that's completely weak outpower someone stronger,or other one completely being able to magically defeat a an opponent with a really op move/strategy, without any reason. But i can't see what's the problem in these other situations.

There's also the fact that members of one team can help each other so they don't get their shit stomped against stronger rivals, like Vegeta did with Roshi in ep 107 (even thougth the only reason Roshi made it out was because Frost is a pshyco that likes torturing his victims).

Some of them even making combinations, for example Botamo and Magetta. Botamo is not a really capable fighter and he can easily be outsmaerted, and Magetta it's really weak to insults, but them together could actually do much better than being spearated (i don't fucking understand why did they stop helping eahc other after a while).
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