Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

[Miracles]

What is the big deal with Cauli and Kale?
One is sure and the other is unsure of herself.
We have seen their kind a plethora of times before.

I'm just glad Freeza eliminated Cabba.

[Boo Machine]

I'm very confused as to WHY Caulifla needs to act scared and why her confidence is a bad thing? She never said she was going to solo Jiren or anything, she just said she could get stronger. And she is right. She can.

She doesn't need to act insecure in this situation. Does it make her a little delusional? Maybe. But so what? If she is confident, she is confident. A character being Confident in the face of certain doom, doesn't make it bad writing. At worst it just makes her really bad at reading the situation. But that isn't bad writing.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Although the recent discussion was on Caulifla, this is something that happens to a lot of DB characters with regards to how the fandom views them.

It's almost always "either/or", "always/never". These characters are either really good for people, or just absolutely suck. I personally don't get it, but that's because I hardly ever consider most things to be hateable enough to be "trash". It always seems like too strong of a connotation to make an association with.

Caulifla isn't bad, not great, but she's never been truly terrible, as far as I'm concerned. I think it might have to do with the intrinsic nature of character traits in general. We generally tend to label things as "good" or "bad" without any room in-between. We overblow the extremes to be much more influential than they might otherwise be. For example, in the recent discussion alone, we've had "she's completely arrogant and self-absorbed" thrown around despite how extreme and uncharacteristic it sounds.

Heck, wishing terrible things on or being glad something terrible happens to a character does NOT seem like a healthy way of promoting discussion and reasoned analysis on the merits and flaws of different character. It's the issue of absolute, where something has to ABSOLUTELY be this one thing or the other one thing.

[Kinokima]

I'm not disputing how popular she may or may not be, but I'm not sure what kind of popularity it is. She has plenty of buzz, but not all of it is good. She's very controversial. So I don't know the extent of her actual popularity.

It could be quite high! I really don't know. I'm certainly no barometer for the fanbase.

Caulifla is far from what I would consider "controversial".

She is mean, and is stronger than a select few people would like. That's about as worst as she got, and I'd have to reach pretty hard to call it controversial.

Well, not necessarily controversial in terms of content, but she certainly seems to be a divisive figure. She is either beloved or loathed, from what I can tell. The fandom is definitely split open with regard to Caulifla and, to a lesser extent, Kale. Maybe not as much as I tend to think, but there's definitely an effect.

Isn’t that true for almost every character though? It seems as much as a character has fans they also have haters.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Caulifla is far from what I would consider "controversial".

She is mean, and is stronger than a select few people would like. That's about as worst as she got, and I'd have to reach pretty hard to call it controversial.

Well, not necessarily controversial in terms of content, but she certainly seems to be a divisive figure. She is either beloved or loathed, from what I can tell. The fandom is definitely split open with regard to Caulifla and, to a lesser extent, Kale. Maybe not as much as I tend to think, but there's definitely an effect.

Isn’t that true for almost every character though? It seems as much as a character has fans they also have haters.

I'm not constantly reading or in touch with the fandom as much as I used to be, but when I dip into it I rarely hear about a middle ground with regard to Caulifla. It's either OMG ~CAULIFLA~ WAIFUUUU or that she's a cunt. I don't get that same vibe with, say, Piccolo, who has fans and detractors but also plenty of people who take it or leave it.

[Boo Machine]

I'd assume that's because most people who are in the middle don't tend to weigh in. If you don't care about the character one way or the other, it's understandable if you wouldn't want put the effort to talk about them. It's a lot easier to talk about something you like or dislike.

[Kinokima]

Well, not necessarily controversial in terms of content, but she certainly seems to be a divisive figure. She is either beloved or loathed, from what I can tell. The fandom is definitely split open with regard to Caulifla and, to a lesser extent, Kale. Maybe not as much as I tend to think, but there's definitely an effect.

Isn’t that true for almost every character though? It seems as much as a character has fans they also have haters.

I'm not constantly reading or in touch with the fandom as much as I used to be, but when I dip into it I rarely hear about a middle ground with regard to Caulifla. It's either OMG ~CAULIFLA~ WAIFUUUU or that she's a cunt. I don't get that same vibe with, say, Piccolo, who has fans and detractors but also plenty of people who take it or leave it.

Well I can take or leave Caulifla

That sounds kind of harsh I don’t love her or hate her I mean. She’s too new for that. But as I hate character bashing I will support her.

[Lord Beerus]

Caulifla "wisely" chose the easy route of self motivating herself and Kale? I don't think I'd label anything Caulifla says as "wise". I don't think non-stop boasting and sucking her own dick is wise. There's a time and a place for it, but after seeing all the crazy shit that's been happening so far with people a zillion times stronger than her as well as most of her team being eliminated including Hit who is many times stronger than her, she should start to humble out a little bit and stop giving herself auto fellatio to think for a moment about what her next action is going to be other than "No worries Kale, I am literally the greatest, Jiren and Son Goku got nothin' on me." If she was saying this just to encourage Kale and give off a false sense of bravado it'd be fine, but she genuinely believes in the shit she's spewing.

Caulilfa only acted so self-reassuring and overconfident at that time because she could see how uncertain and low in moral Kale was. And a timed Kale in battle is basically dead weight. Which is something Universe 6 don't need, especially at a time like this. And knowing how much of an emotional crutch Kale is to her, she basically told Kale she can still get stronger and their universe can still have a chance to survive, and it gave Kale the confidence boost she needed. She never displays any delusion of being stronger than Goku or Jiren. She never talks about how she beating Jiren or Goku or anything like that. She just has the confidence she can still become more powerful than she already is.

Your assumption that Caulifla was saying all of this solely just to boost Kale's morale and not satisfy her own ego is just that, an assumption. Based on what we already know about Caulifla and what she said, she's purely just indulging in her own ego. There are a million ways they could have shot that scene that implied Caulifla was saying it just for Kale's sake, but they didn't go that direction. Instead they decided to make Caulifla even more egotistical than Vegeta (quite the accomplishment!) in a situation that sure as hell didn't call for it. Like I said, if it was false bravado to make Kale not scared then it would have been fine, more than fine actually since that's what they should have done. Nope, instead they have to make Caulifla look bad.

But we also know that Caulifla will always want to reassure Kale whenever she realises that she not the highest of spirits. Keeping herself enthusiastic about her own strength will give Kale the confidence that perhaps Universe 6 can still win, because Caulifla having confidence gives Kale confidence. I can understand why some people my think she a bit overzealous, but she really acts more boisterous and upbeat than really egotistical. And that's not really a bad thing. All she really displays the belief she can become stronger than she already is. And that kind of attitude is really needed knowing that they've lost their leader and their strongest ally in Hit.

[Totamo]

Being a God of Destruction doesn’t excuse you from being an asshole.

Beerus isn't an asshole though

So someone who wants to destroy a planet with billion of lives over pudding isn’t being an asshole? Or how about him stomping on Vegeta’s head and calling him weak when he did everything in his power to keep Beerus happy?

If you are going to be an asshole/cunt at least be a likeable character (which beerus is)
Caulifla is a new comer that hasnt won anyone hearts yet acting like a cunt wont do her any favors. Personally i feel neutral, i dont particularly like her but i dont dislike her either
I'm on the fence about Kale, she is staring to grow on me but think they fucked her transformation all for the sake of fan service scenes that look cool, they should have kept her at SS2 tier and grow her from there, nobody likes a mary sue

What makes an asshole likable is subjective since while Beerus was liked in Battle of Gods, there were also many who hated him for his attitude and were not happy that he didn’t pay for anything he did. In fact, outside of being denied pudding he got everything he wanted.

And “Caulifla is a new comer that hasn't won anyone hearts yet” is factually untrue since both her and Kale are extremely popular.[/quote]
Thats a not true at all or at least not back up by anything except maybe merchandise and cards. Heck episodes focused on them tend to be the most polarizing among fans here, on youtube and reddit.

[HeroR]

Thats a not true at all or at least not back up by anything except maybe merchandise and cards. Heck episodes focused on them tend to be the most polarizing among fans here, on youtube and reddit.

Merchandise sells is way more telling of something being popular over people being angry on the internet. Like Twilight and the live action Transformers. You can sites and videos about why they suck, but they make billions of dollars and have millions of fans.

Super itself is polarizing and it makes a shit ton of money and crashes CR almost every week. The retellings that people hate sold out on Blueray here in the states, despite the movies being cheaper to buy.

My point, the internet is not always the best place to gauge popularity.

[Cabba]

What makes an asshole likable is subjective since while Beerus was liked in Battle of Gods, there were also many who hated him for his attitude and were not happy that he didn’t pay for anything he did. In fact, outside of being denied pudding he got everything he wanted.
And “Caulifla is a new comer that hasn't won anyone hearts yet” is factually untrue since both her and Kale are extremely popular.

Like stated before, beerus introduction was pretty well done, the kais did a pretty good job a explaining and hyping his prowess. When he visited Goku and Co. He seemed very collected even while fighting him and the others
When he came to earth he was very likeable and friendly socializing with people, writers did a very good job at making buu annoying so that the audience actually wanted buu to get his entitled ass a smack down. Besides he was the main boss when introduced he did not "need" an excuse to do evil things, he did not need to be likeable, his whole nature was that of destruction thats why all the kai were nervous when he woke up. Cauli on the other hand is a secondary character playing hot shot

In the end he didn't even want to destroy earth and has put up with Bulma yelling at him or calling him names despite his previously established fickle nature

Beerus being a more loved character than either kale or cauli is factually true. Especially when their popularity revolves around the novelty of female saiyans and Brolly fan service. Literally all they have going for them is beewbs and Brolly
and every single forum or internet outlet mocking the whole tingly back thing

[Kataphrut]

I don't understand hating on a character for being flawed, when Dragon Ball, especially post Namek has derived all it's tension from character flaws. I've seen people say that Dragon Ball is about what if the fate of the earth was in the hands of the most flawed, selfish, arrogant people (I think I saw VegettoEX himself say that somewhere...paraphrased, I'm sure). You know how it goes: the Android arc could've been avoided if they'd wished for Dr Geros location. Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all could have killed Cell when they had the chance. SSJ3 Goku, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Vegito all could have beaten Buu. None of them did it because they were too prideful. By any objective standard these characters are prats, and don't we love them all the same?

Beerus and Caulifla are the latest in a long line of delightful prats introduced to the franchise, but at the same time they're not just repeating old archetypes. Beerus had every right to be an arrogant jerk when he first arrived, since he was so far above everyone and demanded respect. But in the relatively short time we've known him, he's matured and humbled until this arc where he's the main voice of reason on the Universe 7 team. It was gradual, but he's gone from regarding Goku and co as curiosities or favourite pets to genuine friends. In the course of relying on them to win the U6 tournament, cleaning up Zamasu's mess and now needing them for his own survival in the TOP, he's become both respectful and a little frightened of them.

Meanwhile Caulifla has the brash attitude of someone who until recently believed she was the top dog but in a short time has been exposed to all these new levels of power above her. And instead of shriveling from it the way Cabba did, she's like "gonna get me some o' dat!" In addition to that, she's also trying to encourage Kale, who she knows has the potential to be even stronger than her. Yeah, she's up herself, but she's fun about it and isn't only looking out for number one. I'll take that over Vegeta's endless mid-life crisis or Gotenks dooming his friends and family for the sake of a show.

Think about that. Bulma has only died once in the entire series and it was because her son let a mass-murdering demon escape. Don't tell me Caulifla is the one with the arrogance problem.

[Noah]

At least know we know why Vegeta was so determined on being the last man standing and winning the Tournament Of Power. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 6, should they be erased, so he can visit Planet Sadala and meet the king of the Saiyans in that universe that Cabba talked about back in the Champa arc.

Really? I thought it was for the sake of his own universe, his loved ones, his newborn daughter e.g

I hope and caulifla do not get the ssj3, it would be stupid.

I swear if Caulifla turns into a SSJ3 in the next episode it would literally be the final straw that breaks the camels back.

[Boo Machine]

I swear to god if Camels go extinct in the next few months I'm blaming this arc and all of you with it.

The Camels are going to need Ultra Intinct at this rate. The Super Straws are just too much.

[HeroR]

Like stated before, beerus introduction was pretty well done, the kais did a pretty good job a explaining and hyping his prowess. When he visited Goku and Co. He seemed very collected even while fighting him and the others
When he came to earth he was very likeable and friendly socializing with people, writers did a very good job at making buu annoying so that the audience actually wanted buu to get his entitled ass a smack down. Besides he was the main boss when introduced he did not "need" an excuse to do evil things, he did not need to be likeable, his whole nature was that of destruction thats why all the kai were nervous when he woke up. Cauli on the other hand is a secondary character playing hot shot

In the end he didn't even want to destroy earth and has put up with Bulma yelling at him or calling him names despite his previously established fickle nature

Beerus being a more loved character than either kale or cauli is factually true. Especially when their popularity revolves around the novelty of female saiyans and Brolly fan service. Literally all they have going for them is beewbs and Brolly
and every single forum or internet outlet mocking the whole tingly back thing

The show explaining why someone is an asshole doesn't mean the audience have to like or accept it. Especially when the Kais point out all his dick behavior liking blowing up a Kai's planet over a game, tries to destroy the Earth over freaking pudding, ruins Bulma's birthday party because he was a petty jerk, and he literally never pays for anything. He got everything wanted and more except pudding. So he's a boss who is a Karma Houdini that really annoyed many people.

Yet, Cali is more of an asshole because she's arrogant and doesn't know her place. Yeah, being arrogant is a far worse crime then wanting to destroy a planet over bad food.

Also, Beerus has been around longer than Cali and Kale at this point, who weren't formally introduced until six months ago. And "all they have going for them is beewbs and Broly" is one way to undermine why fans liked them. And since when is the internet the place to judge popularity since everyone on the internet hate and mock Twilight, yet it's one of the best selling series of all time.

[Totamo]

- I continue love Caulifa more and more she appear. She just oozes charisma with how confident and commanding she is. And her realising just how she is (A Saiyan) after watching Goku and Jiren battle and believing she can still get much, much stronger was a really nice moment. I've said this before but Caulilfa really does feel like a like a hybrid of Kid Goku and Post Majin Boo arc Vegeta, with how enthusiastic, energetic and zealous she is towards scenarios as well as how how self-assured, cocky and bold she is. Her personality is really well balanced.
.

Her personality is about as well balanced as a bowling ball could rest on a needle. I'd rather shove the needle up my ass than engage in such a pointless exercise.

Caulifla is an arrogant prick who becomes more and more annoying with every appearance she puts in. I cannot think of a more grating character that this franchise has produced. From her "tingly back" magic powerup bullshit to her self-aggrandizing better-than-everyone attitude, this arrogant cunt of a plot device and her Mary Sue powered exaggerated sense of self-importance exemplify the absolute worst of pure-blooded saiyan characters. I was glad when Vegeta finally pulled his head out of his ass after the Cell arc, because up until then he was pushing an absolute limit of what I could tolerate in terms of being a cocky asshole, and now I get to watch it again in a new character who has put in about 2% of the work and has a charm rating of fucking zero? No thanks.

This is kind of amusing coming from a resident Goten fan... aka of a none character. At least she has a personality unlike Goten who only served only a plot device for Gotenks who then after got tossed aside by Toriyama like stale old bread. You talk about mary sue power ups but then Goten gets SS by sparring with chichi when he can't even f**cking fly. You cannot talk smack against Caulifla. Goten was sooooo much more worse.

It seems you're jealous that a new prodigy Saiyan has come along and actually been something.

There are 3 big differences between Trunks and Goten and Cali and Kale.

1. When those 2 kids went super saiyan, it was vague how they did it. When we first saw them do it, they already knew how to. This allows fans to come up with their own theories on they achieved it. We don't have that luxury with these 2, we saw how they did it and it was nowhere near as epic or cool as the old version. Basically no explanation is better than a bad explanation.


2. Goten and Trunks had a limit to how far they went in transformation. They got basic super saiyan. Not even trained super saiyan. The one no one at that point used anymore. Caulifla has gone through 2 after just learning about the form and Kale has a form that was even stronger than that one. In short, they skipped the entire cell saga while the two kids skipped the last quarter of namek.


3. The biggest one and the reason why many hate them is that they are being made way more important than their accomplishments lead us to believe they should be. Why were Goten and Trunks important, they weren't as solo. Gotenks was. Individually, Goten and Trunks would lose to Piccolo and 18. They were never that big of a deal without it. they were just kids who learned super saiyan at a young age. It wasn't until they trained and learned fusion did they become relevant and it felt deserved because they worked for something. Super saiyan didn't make them special to the story, fusion did.


This isn't the case with the girls. They have been made the hope of their universe and there is no really real reason. What did they do to deserve that? Unlock a form that Cabba did after his planet was threatened and Vegeta beat the crap out of him? See, cabba was never made important after learning super saiyan for the first time, it wasn't a big deal. he didn't accomplish anything with it, he wasn't made the hope of his universe because of it. He was not important. Thus he offended very little people. There weren't videos made about how he ruined super saiyan or how he is a gary stu. Nothing really happened. but these ladies, they have been and thats the problem.



Oh and one is a broly reference and the other is Goku without the things that keep him grounded......that may be the biggest reason now that i think about it.

[Kataphrut]

I swear to god if Camels go extinct in the next few months I'm blaming this arc and all of you with it.

The Camels are going to need Ultra Intinct at this rate. The Super Straws are just too much.

If the Camels turn Ultra Instinct, I'm quitting Kanzenshuu.

[Kinokima]

I swear to god if Camels go extinct in the next few months I'm blaming this arc and all of you with it.

The Camels are going to need Ultra Intinct at this rate. The Super Straws are just too much.

If the Camels turn Ultra Instinct, I'm quitting Kanzenshuu.

Thanks for the laugh you two. Much needed in this thread.

[HeroR]

I don't understand hating on a character for being flawed, when Dragon Ball, especially post Namek has derived all it's tension from character flaws. I've seen people say that Dragon Ball is about what if the fate of the earth was in the hands of the most flawed, selfish, arrogant people (I think I saw VegettoEX himself say that somewhere...paraphrased, I'm sure). You know how it goes: the Android arc could've been avoided if they'd wished for Dr Geros location. Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all could have killed Cell when they had the chance. SSJ3 Goku, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Vegito all could have beaten Buu. None of them did it because they were too prideful. By any objective standard these characters are prats, and don't we love them all the same?

Beerus and Caulifla are the latest in a long line of delightful prats introduced to the franchise, but at the same time they're not just repeating old archetypes. Beerus had every right to be an arrogant jerk when he first arrived, since he was so far above everyone and demanded respect. But in the relatively short time we've known him, he's matured and humbled until this arc where he's the main voice of reason on the Universe 7 team. It was gradual, but he's gone from regarding Goku and co as curiosities or favourite pets to genuine friends. In the course of relying on them to win the U6 tournament, cleaning up Zamasu's mess and now needing them for his own survival in the TOP, he's become both respectful and a little frightened of them.

Meanwhile Caulifla has the brash attitude of someone who until recently believed she was the top dog but in a short time has been exposed to all these new levels of power above her. And instead of shriveling from it the way Cabba did, she's like "gonna get me some o' dat!" In addition to that, she's also trying to encourage Kale, who she knows has the potential to be even stronger than her. Yeah, she's up herself, but she's fun about it and isn't only looking out for number one. I'll take that over Vegeta's endless mid-life crisis or Gotenks dooming his friends and family for the sake of a show.

Think about that. Bulma has only died once in the entire series and it was because her son let a mass-murdering demon escape. Don't tell me Caulifla is the one with the arrogance problem.

Have to disagree with the bolded. Whis is by the far the most reasonable one when all Beerus did before the TOP was bitch, eat, and then complaint about the team when he did nothing to help, and he still treats Goku and the others as pets. He just don't kicking them as much.

Also, Gotenks may have doomed everyone for the sake of the show, but he was fun to watch as he doomed everyone.

[Lord Beerus]

At least know we know why Vegeta was so determined on being the last man standing and winning the Tournament Of Power. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 6, should they be erased, so he can visit Planet Sadala and meet the king of the Saiyans in that universe that Cabba talked about back in the Champa arc.

Really? I thought it was for the sake of his own universe, his loved ones, his newborn daughter e.g.

Well if Vegeta wins the tournament, Universe 7 survive by default. Getting a wish from the Super Dragon Balls are basically a bonus prize.