Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:39 pm

HeroR wrote:
Super Saiyan 2 is officially a 200x multiplier of a Saiyan base form.
Your math is off. SSJ2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan, which is 50 times stronger than a base form.

50 times 2 is 100, not 200. A nitpick I wouldn't normally bother making, but you're doing maths here. That should be corrected.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:41 pm

Totamo wrote:
This isn't the case with the girls. They have been made the hope of their universe and there is no really real reason. What did they do to deserve that? Unlock a form that Cabba did after his planet was threatened and Vegeta beat the crap out of him? See, cabba was never made important after learning super saiyan for the first time, it wasn't a big deal. he didn't accomplish anything with it, he wasn't made the hope of his universe because of it. He was not important. Thus he offended very little people. There weren't videos made about how he ruined super saiyan or how he is a gary stu. Nothing really happened. but these ladies, they have been and thats the problem.



Oh and one is a broly reference and the other is Goku without the things that keep him grounded......that may be the biggest reason now that i think about it.
Cabba put his trust in them because of how Cali grown and Kale had a Super Saiyan form that tanked a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's blast. That isn't rocket science, especially since their ace is gone.

And how is Cali a female Goku? This gets thrown around like a fact when the only things they have in common is that they loved to fight and are challenge seekers, which are common Saiyan traits. And Goku isn't exactly grounded either since he told all the gods to came at him and he will beat their best fighters. Also, only Cabba made them the "hope of their universe". Champa put his trust in Cabba after Hit got ring out and asked Cabba to find more Saiyans. Cabba was even called U6's hope by his old teacher, so Cabba had the most support to being U6's best hope after Hit. So it isn't like Kale and Cali being "hope of their universe" was pushed when only one person said it.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Super Saiyan 2 is officially a 200x multiplier of a Saiyan base form.
Your math is off. SSJ2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan, which is 50 times stronger than a base form.

50 times 2 is 100, not 200. A nitpick I wouldn't normally bother making, but you're doing maths here. That should be corrected.
Yeah, my mistake. I am used to scaling Super Saiyan 2 from Super Saiyan, making it a 2x multiplier.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:45 pm

There's probably around a 70% chance that Caulifla will unlock SSJ3 during the tournament. Goku already hinted at it and him showing them SSJ3 next episode basically confirms it, especially since it seems like Caulifla wants Goku to train her to get stronger.

Hopefully this transformation will be different though and more along the lines of Cabba where she activates it out of anger/desperation instead of Goku scratching her back for her which allows her to transform, because I have a feeling that even Caulifla fans will begin to dislike her if she gets yet another transformation without even doing anything or fighting for it.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:49 pm

Asura wrote:There's probably around a 70% chance that Caulifla will unlock SSJ3 during the tournament. Goku already hinted at it and him showing them SSJ3 next episode basically confirms it, especially since it seems like Caulifla wants Goku to train her to get stronger.

Hopefully this transformation will be different though and more along the lines of Cabba where she activates it out of anger/desperation instead of Goku scratching her back for her which allows her to transform, because I have a feeling that even Caulifla fans will begin to dislike her if she gets yet another transformation without even doing anything or fighting for it.
Goku never called Super Saiyan 3 an angry transformation.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Cabba » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:49 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: "Cunt" and "Mary Sue" are much too strong to truly apply to Caulifla. I think people need to use terminology that carries a lot less baggage. I think more appropriate descriptors would be "driven and overconfident".
When i said mary sue i was referring to Kale, an amateur warrior with no experience suddenly taking shots from SSB, i think they should have kept her at SS2 tier and grow her powers from there
I used cunt as the feminine equivalent of asshole, people like to throw the word asshole a lot so now-days it has a decreased impact, well... when i said cunt i meant to use it in that way
HeroR wrote: The show explaining why someone is an asshole doesn't mean the audience have to like or accept it. Especially when the Kais point out all his dick behavior liking blowing up a Kai's planet over a game, tries to destroy the Earth over freaking pudding, ruins Bulma's birthday party because he was a petty jerk, and he literally never pays for anything. He got everything wanted and more except pudding. So he's a boss who is a Karma Houdini that really annoyed many people.

Yet, Cali is more of an asshole because she's arrogant and doesn't know her place. Yeah, being arrogant is a far worse crime then wanting to destroy a planet over bad food.
Nah, i wasn't explaining why he is an asshole. I was expressing how i feel about beereus from the perspective of someone who likes him and which i feel is a majority btw. He was properly introduced, he didnt need to act like hot shit because he was the BIG BOSS his own prowess spoke louder than words. and i never said she was more of an asshole than beerus

Besides thats the thing with main bosses/antagonists, they dont need to be likeable. At first i hated Vegeta and then begun to grow on me at the same time goku did, i recall Goku saying i used to hate you. So i feel that was very well done as i shared Gokus feelings it made it more relatable to me. Now Vegeta is my 2nd favorite character

The reason it doesnt matter, Beerus is entitled to destruction as he sees fit thats his job. He doesnt need a reason to destroy earth, everyone should be thankful for Beerus. Its only because beerus that Goku and Vegeta got to train with Whiss. I'm sure everyone is more than happy with the current deal of free food in exchange for deity favors
Also, Beerus has been around longer than Cali and Kale at this point, who weren't formally introduced until six months ago. And "all they have going for them is beewbs and Broly" is one way to undermine why fans liked them. And since when is the internet the place to judge popularity since everyone on the internet hate and mock Twilight, yet it's one of the best selling series of all time.
Thats what I'm saying established characters get to act up, especially main ones. Secondary newcomers not so much
I dont have any other place to measure their popularity from, but from what i seen on the net the big draw to these characters is the whole female super saiyans and Broly comeback, thats what all the talks about them revolves around and the tingly back thing

I feel they messed up when they introduced Cabba as someone who didn't know SSJ which in turn tied their hands when it comes to cauli and kale. Had Cauli and Kale been introduced as two seasoned super saiyans people would be more receptive of their progress
Last edited by Cabba on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:51 pm

HeroR wrote:
Asura wrote:There's probably around a 70% chance that Caulifla will unlock SSJ3 during the tournament. Goku already hinted at it and him showing them SSJ3 next episode basically confirms it, especially since it seems like Caulifla wants Goku to train her to get stronger.

Hopefully this transformation will be different though and more along the lines of Cabba where she activates it out of anger/desperation instead of Goku scratching her back for her which allows her to transform, because I have a feeling that even Caulifla fans will begin to dislike her if she gets yet another transformation without even doing anything or fighting for it.
Goku never called Super Saiyan 3 an angry transformation.
So what? Are you saying Super Saiyan 3 can't be achieved through anger? Gohan's SSJ2 was achieved through anger, but doesn't seem like anyone else after him was able to transform into it with anger except for Cabba. Cabba's transformations were through anger, Caulifla's through tingly back scratching, there's no reason why SSJ3 can't be achieved via anger like every other transformation.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Cabba » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:00 pm

Asura wrote: So what? Are you saying Super Saiyan 3 can't be achieved through anger? Gohan's SSJ2 was achieved through anger, but doesn't seem like anyone else after him was able to transform into it with anger except for Cabba. Cabba's transformations were through anger, Caulifla's through tingly back scratching, there's no reason why SSJ3 can't be achieved via anger like every other transformation.
Seems more likely that with anger you'll get a SS2 form that surpasses SS3. Besides SS3 is a obsolete shit transformation, i dont know why toei insists in bringing it up when they dont even do a good job at animating it, let it be remembered fondly for what it was in its glory moment let it rip

A properly trained SS2 is superior to SS3 in every way, this was shown on the Black arc manga and again in the Goku vs Gohan fight

I agree with your 70% though

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:03 pm

Asura wrote:There's probably around a 70% chance that Caulifla will unlock SSJ3 during the tournament. Goku already hinted at it and him showing them SSJ3 next episode basically confirms it, especially since it seems like Caulifla wants Goku to train her to get stronger.

Hopefully this transformation will be different though and more along the lines of Cabba where she activates it out of anger/desperation instead of Goku scratching her back for her which allows her to transform, because I have a feeling that even Caulifla fans will begin to dislike her if she gets yet another transformation without even doing anything or fighting for it.
They've never explained how SS3 is achieved outside that one filler scene in the Buu saga, so is there really a "wrong" way to do it? Even Gotenks' explanation was "I dunno lol." What was it Goku said in that scene, anyway? I need to look up the subs for that...

Edit: Huh, he doesn't explain it in the subs. Apparently it was a dubbism too! :shock:
Last edited by BlueBasilisk on Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:05 pm

HeroR wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:I don't understand hating on a character for being flawed, when Dragon Ball, especially post Namek has derived all it's tension from character flaws. I've seen people say that Dragon Ball is about what if the fate of the earth was in the hands of the most flawed, selfish, arrogant people (I think I saw VegettoEX himself say that somewhere...paraphrased, I'm sure). You know how it goes: the Android arc could've been avoided if they'd wished for Dr Geros location. Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all could have killed Cell when they had the chance. SSJ3 Goku, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Vegito all could have beaten Buu. None of them did it because they were too prideful. By any objective standard these characters are prats, and don't we love them all the same?

Beerus and Caulifla are the latest in a long line of delightful prats introduced to the franchise, but at the same time they're not just repeating old archetypes. Beerus had every right to be an arrogant jerk when he first arrived, since he was so far above everyone and demanded respect. But in the relatively short time we've known him, he's matured and humbled until this arc where he's the main voice of reason on the Universe 7 team. It was gradual, but he's gone from regarding Goku and co as curiosities or favourite pets to genuine friends. In the course of relying on them to win the U6 tournament, cleaning up Zamasu's mess and now needing them for his own survival in the TOP, he's become both respectful and a little frightened of them.

Meanwhile Caulifla has the brash attitude of someone who until recently believed she was the top dog but in a short time has been exposed to all these new levels of power above her. And instead of shriveling from it the way Cabba did, she's like "gonna get me some o' dat!" In addition to that, she's also trying to encourage Kale, who she knows has the potential to be even stronger than her. Yeah, she's up herself, but she's fun about it and isn't only looking out for number one. I'll take that over Vegeta's endless mid-life crisis or Gotenks dooming his friends and family for the sake of a show.

Think about that. Bulma has only died once in the entire series and it was because her son let a mass-murdering demon escape. Don't tell me Caulifla is the one with the arrogance problem.
Have to disagree with the bolded. Whis is by the far the most reasonable one when all Beerus did before the TOP was bitch, eat, and then complaint about the team when he did nothing to help, and he still treats Goku and the others as pets. He just don't kicking them as much.

Also, Gotenks may have doomed everyone for the sake of the show, but he was fun to watch as he doomed everyone.
Yeah, but Whis can afford to act nice because he gets to live no matter what. If anything, he's been a bit smug about it. Whereas Beerus' attitude is underlined by the very real stress of knowing his existence is on the line, that he's partly to blame for it and he has to put his fate in the hands of Goku's crew. That makes it all the more gratifying to see him show respect to the likes of Tien and Roshi when they fall. Not to mention the gamut of emotions he ran in 110 from fear for Goku, to sorrow, to hope, to joy, to fear OF Goku.

And "fun" is subjective. I was cringing through Gotenks' fight with Buu in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and when they unfused and it looked like Buu would kill them I was thinking "Good. You little shits deserve this. You can apologise to your mothers in the afterlife for letting them down."

Meanwhile, I see a lot of posts from people who can't wait for Freeza or Vegeta to get their hands on Caulifla and Kale (Ribrianne too for that matter) and I'm thinking "for the crime of what, exactly? Being women who don't know their place?" That's what it sounds like.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:13 pm

Asura wrote:
HeroR wrote:
So what? Are you saying Super Saiyan 3 can't be achieved through anger? Gohan's SSJ2 was achieved through anger, but doesn't seem like anyone else after him was able to transform into it with anger except for Cabba. Cabba's transformations were through anger, Caulifla's through tingly back scratching, there's no reason why SSJ3 can't be achieved via anger like every other transformation.
Maybe not, we don't know a thing about Super Saiyan 3.
Cabba wrote: Seems more likely that with anger you'll get a SS2 form that surpasses SS3. Besides SS3 is a obsolete shit transformation, i dont know why toei insists in bringing it up when they dont even do a good job at animating it, let it be remembered fondly for what it was in its glory moment let it rip

A properly trained SS2 is superior to SS3 in every way, this was shown on the Black arc manga and again in the Goku vs Gohan fight

I agree with your 70% though
The Super manga recently used Super Saiyan 3, so it isn't just Toei. And Super Saiyan 2 is also obsolete and it's still used. And Super Saiyan 2 in the anime has never been shown to be superior to Super Saiyan 3 power-wise.
Kataphrut wrote:
Yeah, but Whis can afford to act nice because he gets to live no matter what. If anything, he's been a bit smug about it. Whereas Beerus' attitude is underlined by the very real stress of knowing his existence is on the line, that he's partly to blame for it and he has to put his fate in the hands of Goku's crew. That makes it all the more gratifying to see him show respect to the likes of Tien and Roshi when they fall. Not to mention the gamut of emotions he ran in 110 from fear for Goku, to sorrow, to hope, to joy, to fear OF Goku.

And "fun" is subjective. I was cringing through Gotenks' fight with Buu in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and when they unfused and it looked like Buu would kill them I was thinking "Good. You little shits deserve this. You can apologise to your mothers in the afterlife for letting them down."

Meanwhile, I see a lot of posts from people who can't wait for Freeza or Vegeta to get their hands on Caulifla and Kale (Ribrianne too for that matter) and I'm thinking "for the crime of what, exactly? Being women who don't know their place?" That's what it sounds like.
It still makes Whis far more rational than Beerus, who honestly wasn't that rational, especially his 'never my fault' attitude.

True, but Gotenks was honestly one of my favorite fights in that saga and he was the logical conclusion to two super powerful children merging. I was more annoyed with Gohan in that saga than Gotenks.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:16 pm

Kataphrut wrote:And "fun" is subjective. I was cringing through Gotenks' fight with Buu in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and when they unfused and it looked like Buu would kill them I was thinking "Good. You little shits deserve this. You can apologise to your mothers in the afterlife for letting them down."

Meanwhile, I see a lot of posts from people who can't wait for Freeza or Vegeta to get their hands on Caulifla and Kale (Ribrianne too for that matter) and I'm thinking "for the crime of what, exactly? Being women who don't know their place?" That's what it sounds like.
Soooo, we prefer the genocide of innocent children who don't know any better to the genocide of women who do? O.o;

What was the boys' crime, exactly? Being kids? They were 7 and 8. And dumb. Because... y'know, kids. I don't think Caulifla should be "punished" either, but her arrogance and self-aggrandizing isn't helping her situation anymore than Gotenks' sheer idiocy helped his. And she's an adult.

Uh. We think. Her design makes that a difficult determimation.

I agree that fun is definitely subjective, though.

Damn, this thread hella dark nao. :lol:
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:16 pm

This episode absolutely nailed Vegeta's character. THIS is what a modern Vegeta should be, a bit of douche, but with a heart of gold. Fun quips, but also squeezing in some real emotional character moments as well. I'm so sick of some of the writers still thinking we're in the damn Cell saga, where Vegeta was just a completely unlikeable and annoying dickhead.

There's one exception to this though. That part where he thinks he can somehow beat Jiren is just ridiculous and dumb. Vegeta is arrogant, but he's not brain dead, and anyone can tell that if Goku can't beat Jiren in his state, then he sure as hell can't touch him. Makes absolutely zero sense for him to think that way. I would've much preferred him to say something like "Alright, time to think of a strategy to force Jiren out" or "Time to gather fighters to put together on all out assault on this guy". Imagine seeing Vegeta "recruit" people and lead a desperate final charge towards Jiren or something like that.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:37 pm

There is a MASSIVE amount of sexism and overt male chauvinism and even just general toxic masculinity in at least the American Dragon Ball fanbase, so much it's often appalling to read through youtube comments on Dragon Ball videos. Not saying there's a lot of it HERE, but I do think some of the less obvious characteristics of those issues tend to permeate the fanbase as a whole and seep into fans' thought patterns without them even noticing.

I am seeing a lot of "those bitches need to be put in their place" sentiments around here, or with the barest veneer of civility painted over them so as to try and sound less sexist, and I honestly think that those fans posting such things don't realize what they're saying or contributing to. There's a lot of people that don't see the hypocrisy in their illogical hate/prejudices against real life people, and that issue gets made even worse when talking about fictional characters since people can say some pretty nasty shit under the pretense of, "oh, we're talking about fictional characters, my attitude toward them doesn't matter!" In the sense that those attitudes won't impact the fictional characters or their world, yeah, I guess, but they do say a lot about those fans who happen to be real people with real attitudes who do interact with and have an impact on other real people in the real world.

Anyway, to talk about the episode, I don't think Vegeta actually thinks he can defeat Jiren, at all. Nothing he said or did indicated he thinks he can do better than Goku did. Vegeta wants to see what fighting him feels like. He referred to him as "the strongest," seems pretty clear that he knows Jiren is stronger than Goku and himself. Yet, despite knowing that, he wants to see what a fight against him would be like. Maybe Vegeta has surpassed SSBKKx20 with his SSB form. Maybe he's got a SSB2 up his sleeve (doubt it, but I'd be hyped). Regardless, even if he's still no stronger than Hit, he's not gonna stand around cleaning up scraps. He's too prideful for that! I don't think he has any intention of being ringed out by Jiren, but he doesn't want to end the tournament without even challenging him. He couldn't live with himself. Has no one done that before in real life? Pit themselves in a competition against someone they know to be very superior to themselves just to see how they compare? I would only barely consider myself a martial artist and even I've done that.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:46 pm

Li'l Lemmy wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:And "fun" is subjective. I was cringing through Gotenks' fight with Buu in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and when they unfused and it looked like Buu would kill them I was thinking "Good. You little shits deserve this. You can apologise to your mothers in the afterlife for letting them down."

Meanwhile, I see a lot of posts from people who can't wait for Freeza or Vegeta to get their hands on Caulifla and Kale (Ribrianne too for that matter) and I'm thinking "for the crime of what, exactly? Being women who don't know their place?" That's what it sounds like.
Soooo, we prefer the genocide of innocent children who don't know any better to the genocide of women who do? O.o;

What was the boys' crime, exactly? Being kids? They were 7 and 8. And dumb. Because... y'know, kids. I don't think Caulifla should be "punished" either, but her arrogance and self-aggrandizing isn't helping her situation anymore than Gotenks' sheer idiocy helped his. And she's an adult.

Uh. We think. Her design makes that a difficult determimation.

I agree that fun is definitely subjective, though.

Damn, this thread hella dark nao. :lol:
Not genocide, just murder. There's a difference :wink:

Actually, that is a good point; both Caulifla and Gotenks are fighting to *prevent* genocide. The difference is that Caulifla's attitude hasn't been detrimental to the fight (yet), whereas Gotenks absolutely was.

At the end of the day, there are several differences between them. Caulifla is just a side-character in this arc, and an entertaining one at that. Gotenks was built up as one of the primary hopes to beat Buu in his. And for all the talk of them being dumb kids, Goten and Trunks were actually taking things seriously, especially after Chi-Chi died. You may find it hard to believe, but I like them both a lot as individual characters. I just loathe their fusion.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:51 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:I don't understand hating on a character for being flawed, when Dragon Ball, especially post Namek has derived all it's tension from character flaws. I've seen people say that Dragon Ball is about what if the fate of the earth was in the hands of the most flawed, selfish, arrogant people (I think I saw VegettoEX himself say that somewhere...paraphrased, I'm sure). You know how it goes: the Android arc could've been avoided if they'd wished for Dr Geros location. Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all could have killed Cell when they had the chance. SSJ3 Goku, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Vegito all could have beaten Buu. None of them did it because they were too prideful. By any objective standard these characters are prats, and don't we love them all the same?

Beerus and Caulifla are the latest in a long line of delightful prats introduced to the franchise, but at the same time they're not just repeating old archetypes. Beerus had every right to be an arrogant jerk when he first arrived, since he was so far above everyone and demanded respect. But in the relatively short time we've known him, he's matured and humbled until this arc where he's the main voice of reason on the Universe 7 team. It was gradual, but he's gone from regarding Goku and co as curiosities or favourite pets to genuine friends. In the course of relying on them to win the U6 tournament, cleaning up Zamasu's mess and now needing them for his own survival in the TOP, he's become both respectful and a little frightened of them.

Meanwhile Caulifla has the brash attitude of someone who until recently believed she was the top dog but in a short time has been exposed to all these new levels of power above her. And instead of shriveling from it the way Cabba did, she's like "gonna get me some o' dat!" In addition to that, she's also trying to encourage Kale, who she knows has the potential to be even stronger than her. Yeah, she's up herself, but she's fun about it and isn't only looking out for number one. I'll take that over Vegeta's endless mid-life crisis or Gotenks dooming his friends and family for the sake of a show.

Think about that. Bulma has only died once in the entire series and it was because her son let a mass-murdering demon escape. Don't tell me Caulifla is the one with the arrogance problem.
Have to disagree with the bolded. Whis is by the far the most reasonable one when all Beerus did before the TOP was bitch, eat, and then complaint about the team when he did nothing to help, and he still treats Goku and the others as pets. He just don't kicking them as much.

Also, Gotenks may have doomed everyone for the sake of the show, but he was fun to watch as he doomed everyone.
Yeah, but Whis can afford to act nice because he gets to live no matter what. If anything, he's been a bit smug about it. Whereas Beerus' attitude is underlined by the very real stress of knowing his existence is on the line, that he's partly to blame for it and he has to put his fate in the hands of Goku's crew. That makes it all the more gratifying to see him show respect to the likes of Tien and Roshi when they fall. Not to mention the gamut of emotions he ran in 110 from fear for Goku, to sorrow, to hope, to joy, to fear OF Goku.

And "fun" is subjective. I was cringing through Gotenks' fight with Buu in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and when they unfused and it looked like Buu would kill them I was thinking "Good. You little shits deserve this. You can apologise to your mothers in the afterlife for letting them down."

Meanwhile, I see a lot of posts from people who can't wait for Freeza or Vegeta to get their hands on Caulifla and Kale (Ribrianne too for that matter) and I'm thinking "for the crime of what, exactly? Being women who don't know their place?" That's what it sounds like.
Yes I dislike Kale because she is a woman who doesnt know her place...not her terrible motivation, lack of originality (Female Broly) and overall annoying personality.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:12 pm

Ziegander wrote:There is a MASSIVE amount of sexism and overt male chauvinism and even just general toxic masculinity in at least the American Dragon Ball fanbase, so much it's often appalling to read through youtube comments on Dragon Ball videos. Not saying there's a lot of it HERE, but I do think some of the less obvious characteristics of those issues tend to permeate the fanbase as a whole and seep into fans' thought patterns without them even noticing.

I am seeing a lot of "those bitches need to be put in their place" sentiments around here, or with the barest veneer of civility painted over them so as to try and sound less sexist, and I honestly think that those fans posting such things don't realize what they're saying or contributing to. There's a lot of people that don't see the hypocrisy in their illogical hate/prejudices against real life people, and that issue gets made even worse when talking about fictional characters since people can say some pretty nasty shit under the pretense of, "oh, we're talking about fictional characters, my attitude toward them doesn't matter!" In the sense that those attitudes won't impact the fictional characters or their world, yeah, I guess, but they do say a lot about those fans who happen to be real people with real attitudes who do interact with and have an impact on other real people in the real world.
Ok, I'm glad someone else said this, because I've noticed it too. It's easy to look at some of the frankly disgusting Youtube comments and think we're above that, but all that does it let the nastier, subtle sexism seep in.
GodKaio-Ken wrote: Yes I dislike Kale because she is a woman who doesnt know her place...not her terrible motivation, lack of originality (Female Broly) and overall annoying personality.
Ok, I can understand criticism of Kale, there's a lot to unpack with her. Also notice how this thread has hardly been about her? Mostly it's been about Caulifla, just like the last few weeks were mostly about Ribrianne, and the criticism has either been for things other characters have gotten away with (see: too arrogant), or thrown under the unhelpful blanket of "annoying." Also included, criticism of their designs, usually for being too skinny, or too fat in Ribrianne's case. And the occasional gendered term like "bitch" thrown in just in case you weren't absolutely sure.

Just...think about how it might look to some people.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Cabba » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:25 pm

HeroR wrote: The Super manga recently used Super Saiyan 3, so it isn't just Toei. And Super Saiyan 2 is also obsolete and it's still used. And Super Saiyan 2 in the anime has never been shown to be superior to Super Saiyan 3 power-wise.
Except it was clearly used for eye candy, the purpose was clear. Zeno said he wanted to see ALL transformations for fun, after Goku went SS2 zeno didnt see a difference in appearance so beerus told him to go past it. It was clearly used to entertain Zeno. Just the same way Goku used SS3 with Trunks to get a feel of Blacks power only later to have Vegeta SS2 own Black

SS2 was shown superior to SS3 when Vegeta did better than Goku SS3 against Beerus, it was shown as superior when Goku fought Mystic Gohan
SS2 is not obsolete because it serves as a medium point between base and God forms which at the moment are said to consume more stamina. With SS3 huge power hog and comparatively meager gains you are much better off jumping to SSG if SS2 doesn't cut it. SS2 shouldn't even be referred as SS2 if Akira kept his word, SS2 is supposed to be a variation of SS a more powerful SSJ that is

I feel SS3 being brought back from the grave occasionally as shitty fan service will be norm

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by GhoulEto » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:33 pm

Asura wrote:There's probably around a 70% chance that Caulifla will unlock SSJ3 during the tournament. Goku already hinted at it and him showing them SSJ3 next episode basically confirms it, especially since it seems like Caulifla wants Goku to train her to get stronger.

Hopefully this transformation will be different though and more along the lines of Cabba where she activates it out of anger/desperation instead of Goku scratching her back for her which allows her to transform, because I have a feeling that even Caulifla fans will begin to dislike her if she gets yet another transformation without even doing anything or fighting for it.
How much has happened since it was first transformed? less than a day, if, one day, it's ridiculous.
They should never have put those saiyajin

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Cabba » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:33 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote: Yes I dislike Kale because she is a woman who doesnt know her place...not her terrible motivation, lack of originality (Female Broly) and overall annoying personality.
What i dislike about Kale is that she was introduced as an amateur with very little battle experience and all of sudden with some tantrum fit she exchnages blows with SSB
Its very bad written, if they wanted her to be of certain level, they should have introduced her as a seasoned LSS not some crybaby with inexplicable powers to servce as fan service for Broly who wasnt that powerful to begin with outside fanmade content.

and ribrienne is annoying as hell, if she was a dude it would have been just as bad

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:35 pm

Cabba wrote: Except it was clearly used for eye candy, the purpose was clear. Zeno said he wanted to see ALL transformations for fun, after Goku went SS2 zeno didnt see a difference in appearance so beerus told him to go past it. It was clearly used to entertain Zeno. Just the same way Goku used SS3 with Trunks to get a feel of Blacks power only later to have Vegeta SS2 own Black

SS2 was shown superior to SS3 when Vegeta did better than Goku SS3 against Beerus, it was shown as superior when Goku fought Mystic Gohan
SS2 is not obsolete because it serves as a medium point between base and God forms which at the moment are said to consume more stamina. With SS3 huge power hog and comparatively meager gains you are much better off jumping to SSG if SS2 doesn't cut it. SS2 shouldn't even be referred as SS2 if Akira kept his word, SS2 is supposed to be a variation of SS a more powerful SSJ that is

I feel SS3 being brought back from the grave occasionally as shitty fan service will be norm
Goku still used it and even fought in it. And Vegeta became stronger because of a rage boost, not the Super Saiyan form itself and it was temporary to boot. And Goku didn't even used Super Saiyan 3 against Gohan and if he did, it would be superior to Ultimate Gohan since it's a stronger form. Super Saiyan 3 can serve the same purpose as Super Saiyan 2 if Goku wanted.

Also, Toriyama called both Super Saiyan 2 and 3 variation of Super Saiyan.

You don't like the form, which is fine, but don't overblow myths about it.
Cabba wrote:
GodKaio-Ken wrote: Yes I dislike Kale because she is a woman who doesnt know her place...not her terrible motivation, lack of originality (Female Broly) and overall annoying personality.
What i dislike about Kale is that she was introduced as an amateur with very little battle experience and all of sudden with some tantrum fit she exchnages blows with SSB
Its very bad written, if they wanted her to be of certain level, they should have introduced her as a seasoned LSS not some crybaby with inexplicable powers to servce as fan service for Broly who wasnt that powerful to begin with outside fanmade content.

and ribrienne is annoying as hell, if she was a dude it would have been just as bad
You are aware you just described Saiyan Saga Gohan?

And Kale is basically the Hulk. A lot of raw power and little battle experience.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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