Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:48 pm

Asura wrote:I wonder if U6 will go before U4 does? I don't see the U6 Namekians lasting very long especially given they're already fighting and we know nothing about them and they've uttered like, 2 whole lines. Makes me wonder though if Caulifla is just using Goku to train her or if she also plans on trying to eliminate him. I'd imagine the smartest/wisest thing to do would be for her and Kale to ally up with U7 until the end, but as I said previously in another post, "wise' and "Caulifla" don't exactly match up.
I'd wager she's going the training route. If she wanted to take him out she could have just taken him by surprise and kicked him out or let the robots do the work for her. Even the narrator questioned what her real motives are.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:58 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Asura wrote:I wonder if U6 will go before U4 does? I don't see the U6 Namekians lasting very long especially given they're already fighting and we know nothing about them and they've uttered like, 2 whole lines. Makes me wonder though if Caulifla is just using Goku to train her or if she also plans on trying to eliminate him. I'd imagine the smartest/wisest thing to do would be for her and Kale to ally up with U7 until the end, but as I said previously in another post, "wise' and "Caulifla" don't exactly match up.
I'd wager she's going the training route. If she wanted to take him out she could have just taken him by surprise and kicked him out or let the robots do the work for her. Even the narrator questioned what her real motives are.
Oh yeah she's definitely going the training route but I meant for after she gets what she wants from him will she challenge him to a real fight in an attempt to knock him out or will she do the smart thing and ally up with him?

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Cabba » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:37 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Cabba wrote:
HeroR wrote: Super's animation have nothing to do with budget. And it wasn't 'nerf'. The enemies Goku fights got stronger. And Vegeta never fights Black as any golden Super Saiyan in the anime and Vegeta doesn't even have Super Saiyan 3. Your one example was also an outlier that everyone noted.
If it doesn't have anything to do with budget then why cant they dedicate more man hours to make SS3 look better? if money is not the reason then what is?
Just here to answer the budget mis-conception.

The problem with Super is that its a very rushed production where a lot of the episodes are only produced last minute. The reason why its rushed has to do with the lack of pre-production the series had, which was a bad foot to start the show on, that why we got the infamous episode 5 and the show hasn't really recovered since then even though we've been getting loads of staff from finishing shows like Tiger Mask W.

The Super board has a thread devoted to documenting the production of the show. Here's an entry from that thread about one of the more troubled episodes of this arc production wise.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Which begs the question cant you just throw money to get more man hours and meet the deadline? Surely if double or triple the amount of people worked on episode 5 on the same time frame it would have looked better

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:54 pm

Cabba wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Cabba wrote: If it doesn't have anything to do with budget then why cant they dedicate more man hours to make SS3 look better? if money is not the reason then what is?
Just here to answer the budget mis-conception.

The problem with Super is that its a very rushed production where a lot of the episodes are only produced last minute. The reason why its rushed has to do with the lack of pre-production the series had, which was a bad foot to start the show on, that why we got the infamous episode 5 and the show hasn't really recovered since then even though we've been getting loads of staff from finishing shows like Tiger Mask W.

The Super board has a thread devoted to documenting the production of the show. Here's an entry from that thread about one of the more troubled episodes of this arc production wise.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Which begs the question cant you just throw money to get more man hours and meet the deadline? Surely if double or triple the amount of people worked on episode 5 on the same time frame it would have looked better
The thing is though, episode 5 had a huge staff list with at least 20 confirmed key animators and an unknown amount of animators from support studios(since they don't list there staff, we don't know how many key animators worked on the episode) also, to my knowledge, animators are paid per drawing, not man hours.

The problems episode 5 had have been very well documented with video's by a moderator on this forum.
Also, here's the entry for episode 5.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:10 pm

Artorias wrote:This episode absolutely nailed Vegeta's character. THIS is what a modern Vegeta should be, a bit of douche, but with a heart of gold. Fun quips, but also squeezing in some real emotional character moments as well. I'm so sick of some of the writers still thinking we're in the damn Cell arc, where Vegeta was just a completely unlikeable and annoying dickhead.
This. So much this.

I'm one of the most critical here regarding Vegeta characterization in Super, but I appreciated that they did right in this episode. He should always be like this.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Kinokima » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:22 pm

Noah wrote:
Artorias wrote:This episode absolutely nailed Vegeta's character. THIS is what a modern Vegeta should be, a bit of douche, but with a heart of gold. Fun quips, but also squeezing in some real emotional character moments as well. I'm so sick of some of the writers still thinking we're in the damn Cell arc, where Vegeta was just a completely unlikeable and annoying dickhead.
This. So much this.

I'm one of the most critical here regarding Vegeta characterization in Super, but I appreciated that they did right in this episode. He should always be like this.

I have been thinking about this and I think part of the issue with Vegeta in the TOP (and note I am less critical than most people when it comes to Super Vegeta) that when an episode doesn't focus on him than you are probably going to see more of the arrogant/prideful Vegeta. When he is only on for a few minutes in an episode they are not going to show that "heart of gold" aspect. Usually in these moments he is in the middle of the battle so his more prideful/arrogant side usually comes out the most. We usually only get true character moments out of Vegeta when he gets an episode like this last one and the Roshi one. I love the moments when Vegeta shows he cares best of all but I also don't need to be constantly reminded of it to know he does. He doesn't need a heartfelt moment every episode. Sure I certainly wouldn't complain if every episode focused on Vegeta (I would be in DB heaven) but I know that isn't going to happen. :lol:

The only time I really thought the writers did Vegeta wrong was that spirit bomb moment (and that is also because they didn't even explain what he was thinking) but otherwise I don't think he is as bad as people are making out in this arc at all. And if people think its just this arc where Vegeta shows an arrogant side what about him telling Goku Black I am superior to the real thing lol. Vegeta is not ever going to lose that prideful/arrogant side completely. It is just part of his character. I just wish people would realize that it doesn't make him "bad" and underneath that exterior he does care about others. Having pride was not Vegeta's main problem it was when that pride blinded him to everything else.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Zoeyvalentine » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:29 pm

The episode was very fun and loved VEGETA part!

I dislike in DBS they do not respect the power levels and make zero sense sadly =/

Goku was training 7 years with King-Kai with 40 tons weights for turn into SSJ3 and even with all that training with unlimited stamina in the other world he could not control the form

I can accept Gotenks could turn into SSJ3 cuz the metamor fusion give a MASSIVE POWER LEVEL buff.

Gohan, Trunks, Goten and vegeta haven seen many times SSJ3 form and they can't copy that just "watching", even if Vegeta/Gohan master SSJ2 form =/

Cabbe, Caulifla and Kale will copy SSJ3 just to see -_-...... I "doubt" they was training property.... Even vegeta doing x300 gravity could not copy this form just watching "goku"...... So again Super and their "laugable" logic

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Cabba » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:45 pm

JazzMazz wrote:(since they don't list there staff, we don't know how many key animators worked on the episode) also, to my knowledge, animators are paid per drawing, not man hours.

The problems episode 5 had have been very well documented with video's by a moderator on this forum.
Also, here's the entry for episode 5.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Still, I'm not only talking about episode 5
and i still dont see how more money wouldn't be beneficial, if they had already 20 key animators, then poney up for 40 key animators. Surely the end result would turn out better. Pay for drawing, hour all the same, the more money invested the more animators they can hire. Now i understand it wouldnt make finacial sense to invest that much money on a single regular episode...

Which brings me to my second point, the other decent looking DBS episodes woulnt look better with a higher budget allowing for more animators to work on it?

I get what you are saying that for the amount of money spent ep 5 should have looked much better if not for the logistical nightmare that it was. But how about the latest episodes, are they still suffering from the same logistical problem and why wouldnt more budget make them go from decent lookinh to great looking

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:54 pm

Cabba wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:(since they don't list there staff, we don't know how many key animators worked on the episode) also, to my knowledge, animators are paid per drawing, not man hours.

The problems episode 5 had have been very well documented with video's by a moderator on this forum.
Also, here's the entry for episode 5.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Still, I'm not only talking about episode 5
and i still dont see how more money wouldn't be beneficial, if they had already 20 key animators, then poney up for 40 key animators. Surely the end result would turn out better. Pay for drawing, hour all the same, the more money invested the more animators they can hire. Now i understand it wouldnt make finacial sense to invest that much money on a single regular episode...

Which brings me to my second point, the other decent looking DBS episodes woulnt look better with a higher budget allowing for more animators to work on it?

I get what you are saying that for the amount of money spent ep 5 should have looked much better if not for the logistical nightmare that it was. But how about the latest episodes, are they still suffering from the same logistical problem and why wouldnt more budget make them go from decent lookinh to great looking
There are other threads for this, but I'll try to give you the best answer I can muster so that we can leave this topic for the threads meant for it.

Basically, the work environment doesn't necessarily benefit from more artists, animators, etc.

This stuff is ALL hand-animated still, it's just the colouring that's done with a computer. As well, the work environment of this place and similar animation studios is such that most staff are freelance and thus not entirely dedicated to a single company's productions. Additional staff would likely produce a minimal amount of extra polish for extended costs. It's a cost/profit balance that's not in the favour of the animators. They were initially on a 4-week schedule for the production of each episode, with some barely finishing up with editing the day before the episode airs.

This sort of stuff is why simply throwing down money for extra hands isn't always done, because it's a cost/benefit relationship. The costs most likely outweigh the potential benefits with regards to animation, as the animation likely can't be improved much more. It's really time and experience that needs to be addressed, not quantity.

Again, this is just my best answer for it. I strongly suggest you visit the dedicated animation threads and look for answers there.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by buutenks » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:15 pm

What is with everyone thinking Caulifla and Kale r getting ssj3 lol. They are not.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:05 pm

Cabba wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:(since they don't list there staff, we don't know how many key animators worked on the episode) also, to my knowledge, animators are paid per drawing, not man hours.

The problems episode 5 had have been very well documented with video's by a moderator on this forum.
Also, here's the entry for episode 5.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Still, I'm not only talking about episode 5
and i still dont see how more money wouldn't be beneficial, if they had already 20 key animators, then poney up for 40 key animators. Surely the end result would turn out better. Pay for drawing, hour all the same, the more money invested the more animators they can hire. Now i understand it wouldnt make finacial sense to invest that much money on a single regular episode...

Which brings me to my second point, the other decent looking DBS episodes woulnt look better with a higher budget allowing for more animators to work on it?

I get what you are saying that for the amount of money spent ep 5 should have looked much better if not for the logistical nightmare that it was. But how about the latest episodes, are they still suffering from the same logistical problem and why wouldnt more budget make them go from decent lookinh to great looking
Adding more people doesn't always make something better.....
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Okora » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:52 pm

Username2016 wrote:
barely stronger than SSJ2 cell saga Gohan
[/quote][/quote]
A lot of down play if you think any of the universe 6 saiyans near ssj2 cell saga gohan.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:33 am

Staff shortage is an industry wide issue. Animators don't pop up out of thin air. It is not as easy as people think it is.

More importantly DBS' schedule was a nightmare. You can throw as many people as you want, as much money as you want, but with no time the results will be bad. Money doesn't solve the problem. It shouldn't even be considered a factor here. Time is key. The animators did the best as they can, but poor time management gives poor results. No talent and no amount of money can solve that problem. For that, you can blame the producers for green lighting a series with zero preproduction time.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:41 am

Cabba wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:(since they don't list there staff, we don't know how many key animators worked on the episode) also, to my knowledge, animators are paid per drawing, not man hours.

The problems episode 5 had have been very well documented with video's by a moderator on this forum.
Also, here's the entry for episode 5.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Still, I'm not only talking about episode 5
and i still dont see how more money wouldn't be beneficial, if they had already 20 key animators, then poney up for 40 key animators. Surely the end result would turn out better. Pay for drawing, hour all the same, the more money invested the more animators they can hire. Now i understand it wouldnt make finacial sense to invest that much money on a single regular episode...

Which brings me to my second point, the other decent looking DBS episodes woulnt look better with a higher budget allowing for more animators to work on it?

I get what you are saying that for the amount of money spent ep 5 should have looked much better if not for the logistical nightmare that it was. But how about the latest episodes, are they still suffering from the same logistical problem and why wouldnt more budget make them go from decent lookinh to great looking
Check out Saikyo no Senshi's reply.
[spoiler]
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:Staff shortage is an industry wide issue. Animators don't pop up out of thin air. It is not as easy as people think it is.

More importantly DBS' schedule was a nightmare. You can throw as many people as you want, as much money as you want, but with no time the results will be bad. Money doesn't solve the problem. It shouldn't even be considered a factor here. Time is key. The animators did the best as they can, but poor time management gives poor results. No talent and no amount of money can solve that problem. For that, you can blame the producers for green lighting a series with zero preproduction time.
[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:56 am

Comments on this episode:

- So is the narrator saying that the time cage is a new evolution of Hit's time skip? Vados said he was using time skip repeatedly on Jiren alone, so I guess he just figured out how to do that?
- I'm starting to think that Jiren is aware that Goku has more potential and is going to come back stronger, and he wants it to happen, that's why he didn't eliminate him when he had the chance
- I wish they would stop complaining about 'unfair' tactics - the fate of their universes is on the line!
- This fight with the Universe 3 fighters is starting to remind me of the fights with the Sigma Force in GT
- So it seems that before Cabba learned SSJ, the Namekians in Universe 6 were much stronger than the Saiyans there...
- Why does Champa think that Jiren won't start whittling down the other teams before time runs out?
- SSJ Cabba screaming in pain when Monna hit him looked a lot like Vegeta right there
- Interesting how he used a ki blast to propel himself away like that... I wonder if flight via that technique would be allowed?
- Okay, Cabba was clearly knocked far away from the edge and falling further, but then Vegeta grabs his hand as he's just dangling over it? That makes no sense. He was a good 3 or 4 meters away, at least.
- So base Vegeta easily blasts away Monna, who was too much for SSJ Cabba, yet earlier Vegeta said that he and Cabba in base form were equal. Dragonball Super powerscaling, everyone.
- Is Rou Kaioshin giving Master Roshi a shoulder massage?
- What is Vados referring to when she says they've been saved again by someone from Universe 7? I forget if that happened before
- Funny how they have a flashback to the episode that just came out in the English dub... probably a coincidence though
- We've all been speculating about it but I'm pretty sure this is the first time someone has mentioned using the Super Dragonballs to revive one or more of the erased universes. But how would Zeno feel about that? He's only holding this tournament to determine which ones to erase. What's to stop him from just erasing it again if they wish it back?
- Monna is pretty overconfident considering that Vegeta casually blasted her across the arena in base form...
- Are the SSJ forms just being cheapened like they have been ever since the Cell saga, or is there something special about the Universe 6 Saiyans that lets them achieve them so much quicker?
- Champa told him to run away from Jiren, not from everybody. Vados' attempt to catch him in a contradiction failed this time.
- Oops, Toppo pushed the Goku button... (although really I would say Vegeta is the third strongest on his team after Goku and Freeza)
- What does Freeza mean when he says he loves strong people? He hated the idea of anyone else being strong enough to challenge him, and he didn't much care for the people he knew he couldn't surpass, such as Beerus, either
- Freeza sure is missing a lot of those shots... it's not like Cabba is even dodging or anything
- Did he really need Gold just to stop a SSJ2 attack?
- Is Freezing implying he didn't need to use the Gold form on Cabba but just did it to show off?
- So Freeza's wish is to control the gods, including the Zenos? If the Super Dragonballs could grant a wish like that, why hasn't anyone tried it before?
- I wonder if Caulifla actually intends to eliminate Goku while he's weakened... I doubt it though, since that's not a very Saiyan thing to do (even if it would be the smart thing to do)

Fairly good episode overall
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Okora » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:12 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Comments on this episode:

- So is the narrator saying that the time cage is a new evolution of Hit's time skip? Vados said he was using time skip repeatedly on Jiren alone, so I guess he just figured out how to do that?
- I'm starting to think that Jiren is aware that Goku has more potential and is going to come back stronger, and he wants it to happen, that's why he didn't eliminate him when he had the chance
- I wish they would stop complaining about 'unfair' tactics - the fate of their universes is on the line!
- This fight with the Universe 3 fighters is starting to remind me of the fights with the Sigma Force in GT
- So it seems that before Cabba learned SSJ, the Namekians in Universe 6 were much stronger than the Saiyans there...
- Why does Champa think that Jiren won't start whittling down the other teams before time runs out?
- SSJ Cabba screaming in pain when Monna hit him looked a lot like Vegeta right there
- Interesting how he used a ki blast to propel himself away like that... I wonder if flight via that technique would be allowed?
- Okay, Cabba was clearly knocked far away from the edge and falling further, but then Vegeta grabs his hand as he's just dangling over it? That makes no sense. He was a good 3 or 4 meters away, at least.
- So base Vegeta easily blasts away Monna, who was too much for SSJ Cabba, yet earlier Vegeta said that he and Cabba in base form were equal. Dragonball Super powerscaling, everyone.
- Is Rou Kaioshin giving Master Roshi a shoulder massage?
- What is Vados referring to when she says they've been saved again by someone from Universe 7? I forget if that happened before
- Funny how they have a flashback to the episode that just came out in the English dub... probably a coincidence though
- We've all been speculating about it but I'm pretty sure this is the first time someone has mentioned using the Super Dragonballs to revive one or more of the erased universes. But how would Zeno feel about that? He's only holding this tournament to determine which ones to erase. What's to stop him from just erasing it again if they wish it back?
- Monna is pretty overconfident considering that Vegeta casually blasted her across the arena in base form...
- Are the SSJ forms just being cheapened like they have been ever since the Cell saga, or is there something special about the Universe 6 Saiyans that lets them achieve them so much quicker?
- Champa told him to run away from Jiren, not from everybody. Vados' attempt to catch him in a contradiction failed this time.
- Oops, Toppo pushed the Goku button... (although really I would say Vegeta is the third strongest on his team after Goku and Freeza)
- What does Freeza mean when he says he loves strong people? He hated the idea of anyone else being strong enough to challenge him, and he didn't much care for the people he knew he couldn't surpass, such as Beerus, either
- Freeza sure is missing a lot of those shots... it's not like Cabba is even dodging or anything
- Did he really need Gold just to stop a SSJ2 attack?
- Is Freezing implying he didn't need to use the Gold form on Cabba but just did it to show off?
- So Freeza's wish is to control the gods, including the Zenos? If the Super Dragonballs could grant a wish like that, why hasn't anyone tried it before?
- I wonder if Caulifla actually intends to eliminate Goku while he's weakened... I doubt it though, since that's not a very Saiyan thing to do (even if it would be the smart thing to do)

Fairly good episode overall
I don't agree with the you saying the Namekians were stronger than the saiyans. Espically since base cabba was stronger than Piccolo during the universe 6 tournament anyway. If the Namekians were that strong they would have gotten one of them to fight. And I think Vados was refering to the universe 6 earth but I'm not sure. And all Freeza said was that he wasted stamina

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:55 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote: - What is Vados referring to when she says they've been saved again by someone from Universe 7? I forget if that happened before
Goku tag teaming with Hit against Dyspo and Kunshi, though of course Hit didn't think he needed help. And/or Goku and co. saving Caulifla and Kale from the Pride Troopers IIRC.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:45 am

dbgtFO wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote: - What is Vados referring to when she says they've been saved again by someone from Universe 7? I forget if that happened before
Goku tag teaming with Hit against Dyspo and Kunshi, though of course Hit didn't think he needed help. And/or Goku and co. saving Caulifla and Kale from the Pride Troopers IIRC.
Kale and Caulifla saves themselves from that one. It was Goku's fault they were attacked in the first place. :lol: Well, and Toppo's for knocking Goku into them.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Zagacious » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:51 pm

buutenks wrote:What is with everyone thinking Caulifla and Kale r getting ssj3 lol. They are not.
It's very likely Caulifla will get SSJ3 or some sort of new power boost, while Kale will probably get some weird new mastered LSSJ form beyond what she got earlier.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Bio Broly » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:21 pm

GAF closed and now i feel sad :( but cant stop from talking Dragon Ball so I'm here Hi everyone.

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