Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:30 pm

LightBing wrote: They can if their intention is to alienate the audience. The show has gone down the rabbit hole, there's no rules in anything. One week Goku might be at death's door and the next he's taking 20 people at the same time like it was nothing.

In this aspect in particular it's about finding a middle ground. I'm on board to give more leeway about how skill and other factors matter, it only improves the show like the Master Roshi episode proves, but we need rules in the narrative otherwise nothing matters.

Like I said Goku being SSJ would be a great compromise, why they didn't do it I don't know. I guess people just swallow everything if it aligns with their preferences.
Cant wait until Goku pulls a sword out of his ass if swordsman's becomes a fad or turns into a "Neko Goku" to be more cute.
If by rules you mean everything must adhere to some imaginary formula created by no one other than the fans. Then no. It doesn't need those rules. Because those rules are dumb and more nonsense than what some folk claim this show to be.

People are free to act like this show is just the wild west where anything goes, and they wouldn't even be wrong that, thats the case occasionally. (I know how people like to pull out the Trunks card everytime this discussion happens and it's totally valid) But it's not all the time and it certainly isn't here. Your imaginary scenarios where Goku was at deaths Door only to be fighting a hand full of people like he is fine for no reason isn't a thing that happened. And nothing like pulling sword out of his butt or turning Neko Goku isn't even close to what went on here or anything close to how I said it should be.

The show went out of it's way to give you a reason for what happened using what we know. It didn't make anything up. And even then it didn't stay that way the whole fight. Goku eventually got overpowered anyway! This is totally the middle ground. If someone doesn't want to accept it then that's fine but that isn't an issue with the show being dumb that's an issue with those fans choosing to be anal.

It's not about the fanboys opening wide and swallowing whatever daddy Toei drips down our throats because it "aligns with our preferences". I can't speak for everyone, but personally it's just about not shutting out everything that doesn't remotely align with what I want because it doesn't follow some made up rules of Big must tank small based on some arbitrary number that is apparently supposed to dictate everything.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Chuquita » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:40 pm

Gokû's too fist-oriented to use a sword to battle, imo. Nyoi-bo could conceivably return, but that's the extent and I doubt even that.

And Halloween's in two days so we're not getting that Halloween special this year so "cat ear headband" Gokû isn't happening. I guess something cute with Gokû could happen in a filler arc, but the ToP is kind of the arc that never ends so that if at all would be far in the future.


Gokû teaching characters who love fighting as much as he does is a treat. Gokû's always been alone in his family in his martial arts passion (outside of EoZ Pan) and it's just nice to see characters who share interests enjoying them together. I like the idea of Gokû teaching Caulifla and Kale way more than I do Uub.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:51 pm

Chuquita wrote:Gokû's too fist-oriented to use a sword to battle, imo. Nyoi-bo could conceivably return, but that's the extent and I doubt even that.

And Halloween's in two days so we're not getting that Halloween special this year so "cat ear headband" Gokû isn't happening.


Gokû teaching characters who love fighting as much as he does is a treat. Gokû's always been alone in his family in his martial arts passion (outside of EoZ Pan) and it's just nice to see characters who share interests enjoying them together. I like the idea of Gokû teaching Caulifla and Kale way more than I do Uub.
Plus, if one wants to posit this, the writers could easily spin this as the reason WHY Goku eventually decides to become Uub's full mentor.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Chuquita » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:55 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Chuquita wrote:Gokû's too fist-oriented to use a sword to battle, imo. Nyoi-bo could conceivably return, but that's the extent and I doubt even that.

And Halloween's in two days so we're not getting that Halloween special this year so "cat ear headband" Gokû isn't happening.


Gokû teaching characters who love fighting as much as he does is a treat. Gokû's always been alone in his family in his martial arts passion (outside of EoZ Pan) and it's just nice to see characters who share interests enjoying them together. I like the idea of Gokû teaching Caulifla and Kale way more than I do Uub.
Plus, if one wants to posit this, the writers could easily spin this as the reason WHY Goku eventually decides to become Uub's full mentor.
They could easily; I personally just find Uub boring the same way I find Cabba and pre-Buu-arc Gohan boring; they're vanilla nice guys.

Caulifla's fun because she's got a vibrant personality. Kale's fun because she's breaking out of her shy shell and becoming more independent.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Timetraveller » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:06 pm

Does anyone know who's responsible for creating the tingly back saiyans? I'm not referring to Cabba but the other 2. Just so I know who's to blame. They're complete failures even as fan service. Disappointing that they couldn't figure out how to do female saiyans right even after all these years

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:12 pm

Timetraveller wrote:Does anyone know who's responsible for creating the tingly back saiyans? I'm not referring to Cabba but the other 2. Just so I know who's to blame. They're complete failures even as fan service. Disappointing that they couldn't figure out how to do female saiyans right even after all these years
The tingly back is actually based on real world martial arts and philosophies on the body in East Asian countries. Just like the Ultra Instinct.

The centre of the back is where the emotional energies of a person are controlled. Thus, if a Saiyan can attune his/her Ki from that point of the body and draw out the latent wells of power based on emotions, the Super Saiyan state can be easily achieved. ESPECIALLY if said Saiyan is already extremely strong and skilled in the arts of the manipulation his/her Ki already.

A little research goes a long way, guys.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by OLKv3 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:16 pm

This episode made it clear that Kale and Caulifla aren't anywhere close to Goku. Goku's tired and still easily taking these 2 down

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by amuroray » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:29 pm

Awful episode.

i really dont understand toeis love for Caulifla. They are making her go through the levels like its nothing. If she gets super saiyan 3 and vegeta never did i will be amazed really.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by LightBing » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:31 pm

Boo Machine wrote: If by rules you mean everything must adhere to some imaginary formula created by no one other than the fans. Then no. It doesn't need those rules. Because those rules are dumb and more nonsense than what some folk claim this show to be.

People are free to act like this show is just the wild west where anything goes, and they wouldn't even be wrong that, thats the case occasionally. (I know how people like to pull out the Trunks card everytime this discussion happens and it's totally valid) But it's not all the time and it certainly isn't here. Your imaginary scenarios where Goku was at deaths Door only to be fighting a hand full of people like he is fine for no reason isn't a thing that happened. And nothing like pulling sword out of his butt or turning Neko Goku isn't even close to what went on here or anything close to how I said it should be.

The show went out of it's way to give you a reason for what happened using what we know. It didn't make anything up. And even then it didn't stay that way the whole fight. Goku eventually got overpowered anyway! This is totally the middle ground. If someone doesn't want to accept it then that's fine but that isn't an issue with the show being dumb that's an issue with those fans choosing to be anal.

It's not about the fanboys opening wide and swallowing whatever daddy Toei drips down our throats because it "aligns with our preferences". I can't speak for everyone, but personally it's just about not shutting out everything that doesn't remotely align with what I want because it doesn't follow some made up rules of Big must tank small based on some arbitrary number that is apparently supposed to dictate everything.
What magical formula?! Is the entirety of the manga, with characters constantly saying "can't beat that guy he's far too strong" not clear enough?
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it dumb.

OK no hyperbole: Trunks constantly escaping Black more notoriously after transforming into Rage, Zamasu and Black claim their intention to end it and the next time you see Trunks he's saved, somehow, the villains are drinking tea apparently forgetting everything they said before; battle damage not mattering, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks are beat up and get up a few times when they were supposed to be down for the count; Trunks learning and performing the Mafuba in 10 minutes when it was shown that Tenshinhan and Goku were only capable of doing it after a day of training. Black unexplainable healing himself every time he gets stronger; Trunks magical genki-sword.
These from the top of my head, ever since middle of the Future Zamasu Arc some episodes have been "the wild west".

Really, fans being anal? I said my side and if you check mine and other people's arguments in episodes with similar concerns you can see it's not about people being anal. I didn't scream about power-levels and threw out some random numbers claiming the anime is wrong. It's about not straying too far from what the author wrote before. But if your argument is that were being anal then sure, what can I say to that.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by pacz360 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:36 pm

Chuquita wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Chuquita wrote:Gokû's too fist-oriented to use a sword to battle, imo. Nyoi-bo could conceivably return, but that's the extent and I doubt even that.

And Halloween's in two days so we're not getting that Halloween special this year so "cat ear headband" Gokû isn't happening.


Gokû teaching characters who love fighting as much as he does is a treat. Gokû's always been alone in his family in his martial arts passion (outside of EoZ Pan) and it's just nice to see characters who share interests enjoying them together. I like the idea of Gokû teaching Caulifla and Kale way more than I do Uub.
Plus, if one wants to posit this, the writers could easily spin this as the reason WHY Goku eventually decides to become Uub's full mentor.
They could easily; I personally just find Uub boring the same way I find Cabba and pre-Buu-arc Gohan boring; they're vanilla nice guys.

Caulifla's fun because she's got a vibrant personality. Kale's fun because she's breaking out of her shy shell and becoming more independent.
fail to see why

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by pacz360 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:37 pm

amuroray wrote:Awful episode.

i really dont understand toeis love for Caulifla. They are making her go through the levels like its nothing. If she gets super saiyan 3 and vegeta never did i will be amazed really.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:39 pm

Chuquita wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Chuquita wrote:Gokû's too fist-oriented to use a sword to battle, imo. Nyoi-bo could conceivably return, but that's the extent and I doubt even that.

And Halloween's in two days so we're not getting that Halloween special this year so "cat ear headband" Gokû isn't happening.


Gokû teaching characters who love fighting as much as he does is a treat. Gokû's always been alone in his family in his martial arts passion (outside of EoZ Pan) and it's just nice to see characters who share interests enjoying them together. I like the idea of Gokû teaching Caulifla and Kale way more than I do Uub.
Plus, if one wants to posit this, the writers could easily spin this as the reason WHY Goku eventually decides to become Uub's full mentor.
They could easily; I personally just find Uub boring the same way I find Cabba and pre-Buu-arc Gohan boring; they're vanilla nice guys.

Caulifla's fun because she's got a vibrant personality. Kale's fun because she's breaking out of her shy shell and becoming more independent.
I love Cabba but yeah he is a bit Vanilla. He needs a character like Vegeta to balance him. That’s why they are a good pair.

I actually think the same of Caulifla and Kale. I like them both but I think they work better as a pair as they balance each other. And well it’s nice to have such a strong female friendship in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by amuroray » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:47 pm

pacz360 wrote:
amuroray wrote:Awful episode.

i really dont understand toeis love for Caulifla. They are making her go through the levels like its nothing. If she gets super saiyan 3 and vegeta never did i will be amazed really.
Merchandise pal learn it and get used to it
Yeh think i have outgrown these type of shows(where merchandise effects ANYTHING with the plot)

Shes the worst character i think i have seen in the dragonball universe

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Timetraveller » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:51 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:Does anyone know who's responsible for creating the tingly back saiyans? I'm not referring to Cabba but the other 2. Just so I know who's to blame. They're complete failures even as fan service. Disappointing that they couldn't figure out how to do female saiyans right even after all these years
The tingly back is actually based on real world martial arts and philosophies on the body in East Asian countries. Just like the Ultra Instinct.

The centre of the back is where the emotional energies of a person are controlled. Thus, if a Saiyan can attune his/her Ki from that point of the body and draw out the latent wells of power based on emotions, the Super Saiyan state can be easily achieved. ESPECIALLY if said Saiyan is already extremely strong and skilled in the arts of the manipulation his/her Ki already.

A little research goes a long way, guys.
That's cool that you've injected your own headcanon into the show to attempt to explain things. Let me guess, the super saiyan Broly transformation is based on some Egyptian God who transformed due to their strong love for their sister? It's a kids show and there's no doubt in my mind that none of this was intended by the writers. It's just bad writing to me

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:52 pm

amuroray wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
amuroray wrote:Awful episode.

i really dont understand toeis love for Caulifla. They are making her go through the levels like its nothing. If she gets super saiyan 3 and vegeta never did i will be amazed really.
Merchandise pal learn it and get used to it
Yeh think i have outgrown these type of shows(where merchandise effects ANYTHING with the plot)

Shes the worst character i think i have seen in the dragonball universe
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this sentiment greatly exaggerated and pedantic.

Caulifla has drive, a willingness to learn, a knack for figuring things out quickly, a good heart, and a strong relationship with her best friend and student, Kale.

Can she be cocky and a bit overconfident? Yeah, but so is nearly every pure-blooded Saiyan we've ever seen.

Does she advance a bit quickly? Yeah, but that's because she has natural potential AND a knack for figuring out the best ways to advance from those she learns form.

I honestly don't see what's so repulsing about her.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:56 pm

Timetraveller wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:Does anyone know who's responsible for creating the tingly back saiyans? I'm not referring to Cabba but the other 2. Just so I know who's to blame. They're complete failures even as fan service. Disappointing that they couldn't figure out how to do female saiyans right even after all these years
The tingly back is actually based on real world martial arts and philosophies on the body in East Asian countries. Just like the Ultra Instinct.

The centre of the back is where the emotional energies of a person are controlled. Thus, if a Saiyan can attune his/her Ki from that point of the body and draw out the latent wells of power based on emotions, the Super Saiyan state can be easily achieved. ESPECIALLY if said Saiyan is already extremely strong and skilled in the arts of the manipulation his/her Ki already.

A little research goes a long way, guys.
That's cool that you've injected your own headcanon into the show to attempt to explain things. Let me guess, the super saiyan Broly transformation is based on some Egyptian God who transformed due to their strong love for their sister? It's a kids show and there's no doubt in my mind that none of this was intended by the writers. It's just bad writing to me
By that logic, the Ultra Instinct doesn't actually take inspiration from Mushin and similar martial arts styles based around reacting without thinking, Hit didn't utilize Wing-Chun-inspired styles when he was first introduced in his fight with Vegeta and Goku in the last tournament, and the utilization of Ki into a tangible format isn't based on real world philosophies on the properties and usage of the body's natural energies a.k.a. Chi.

The writers aren't anywhere near as thickheaded as you people make them out to be. They DO do their research. The proof is in how much they write situations that take inspiration from real-world martial arts, natural energy philosophies, etc.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:59 pm

HeroR wrote: She got Super Saiyan 2 to deflect a blast from Super Saiyan Berserk Kale that was aimed at Cabba, not "random muscle spasm like a sneeze".

Okay Mr./Ms. Literal, even though I was joking, what you just said isn't much more different. She ascended to a new form that others struggled to attain, to do what, deflect a single attack? Explain to me how that's not "extra special." Nobody else transforms into a new form like this.
Cali is also much stronger than Goten and Trunks and probably fights more than those two as well. Cabba seems to transformed through emotions like Gohan. Vegeta and Goku just got Super Saiyan 2 off-scene.
Except pure strength isn't the catalyst for SSJ2 so that isn't the problem here. The problem here is these forms need to be understood and concepts from previous forms mastered before moving on to the next. She's not showing that mastery at all. Evolution is one thing, but if these U6 Saiyans are so evolved, how come they never transformed before if all it takes is a little anger (literally insults) or back tingling. Bad writing.
She didn't learn Super Saiyan in an 'extra special' way. She just skipped anger and went to step 2, which is pretty much what Trunks and Goten did.
Not the same. We don't exactly know what Trunks and Goten did, so we can't use them either way. But even from what we do know about them, they should've had an easier time with the transformation than she did. First, Trunks lived with an adult who had already mastered SSJ and possibly SSJ2, so he could've learned just by watching Vegeta. Goten trained with Trunks and probably witnessed him using it before unlocking it himself. They likely had a lot of time to mess around with the form and learn some of its benefits and drawbacks ... or not, who knows? Caulifla literally had 48 hours to do all this. If that's not extra special, I don't know what is.
That wasn't a bad intro, unless you're that butt hurt about her not getting angry to get Super Saiyan,
No, but it sounds like you're butthurt over logical people calling asspulls and bad writing what they really are. I don't mind that the U6 Saiyans have an alternate trigger to turn SSJ. I just want them to be written in a way that makes more logical sense, in a way that I don't have to be embarrassed about when explaining it to my friends who don't watch the show like I do.
which was never a rule once Goten and Trunks broke it, on top of all Super Saiyan forms in the manga being off-scene after Goku.
We don't exactly know what they did, as you said, it was offscreen. We saw the Goten scene in the anime. Not sure if it was in the manga. But however Trunks attained it, we don't know. We just know Vegeta and Gohan somehow didn't know about it, even though they can sense power levels from across the world. My headcanon (which is no more valid or invalid than yours) tells me Trunks mimicked Vegeta and Goten mimicked Trunks. My headcanon also tells me that it took them a while to learn it and longer to learn to transform on command. I'm honestly tired of people justifying Caulifla by using Goten and Trunks. It doesn't help your argument.

But again, they're doing her much more justice now and I can appreciate that. At least she's not God tier at the moment.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by amuroray » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:04 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
amuroray wrote:
pacz360 wrote: Merchandise pal learn it and get used to it
Yeh think i have outgrown these type of shows(where merchandise effects ANYTHING with the plot)

Shes the worst character i think i have seen in the dragonball universe
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this sentiment greatly exaggerated and pedantic.

Caulifla has drive, a willingness to learn, a knack for figuring things out quickly, a good heart, and a strong relationship with her best friend and student, Kale.

Can she be cocky and a bit overconfident? Yeah, but so is nearly every pure-blooded Saiyan we've ever seen.

Does she advance a bit quickly? Yeah, but that's because she has natural potential AND a knack for figuring out the best ways to advance from those she learns form.

I honestly don't see what's so repulsing about her.
a bit quickly? By the end of this tournament i wouldnt be surprised if shes close to god level. Never seen this much rapid progressing and dont get me started over kale.

And please dont mention potential. hate that

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:14 pm

LightBing wrote: What magical formula?! Is the entirety of the manga, with characters constantly saying "can't beat that guy he's far too strong" not clear enough?
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it dumb.

OK no hyperbole: Trunks constantly escaping Black more notoriously after transforming into Rage, Zamasu and Black claim their intention to end it and the next time you see Trunks he's saved, somehow, the villains are drinking tea apparently forgetting everything they said before; battle damage not mattering, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks are beat up and get up a few times when they were supposed to be down for the count; Trunks learning and performing the Mafuba in 10 minutes when it was shown that Tenshinhan and Goku were only capable of doing it after a day of training. Black unexplainable healing himself every time he gets stronger; Trunks magical genki-sword.
These from the top of my head, ever since middle of the Future Zamasu Arc some episodes have been "the wild west".

Really, fans being anal? I said my side and if you check mine and other people's arguments in episodes with similar concerns you can see it's not about people being anal. I didn't scream about power-levels and threw out some random numbers claiming the anime is wrong. It's about not straying too far from what the author wrote before. But if your argument is that were being anal then sure, what can I say to that.
When it causes more than half of the precious cast that everyone wants to see back in action to not be able to do anything ever and makes it so everything has to escalate to ridiculous extremes to the point where everyone needs to be on the level of Gods beyond gods of other gods to be believable, then yes, it is pretty dumb. The whole "he is too strong thing" helps to sell the main villain and how big and scary he is and that's all fine and dandy. But when this formula for some reason needs to me applied to every other character as a hard rule then yes, it's dumb. And I use the term formula because that's what I've seen a lot of people here call it. A formula. A formula that was apparently very detailed and well thought out and must not be strayed from at all costs otherwise the writers just don't get what makes a good story or don't understand Dragonball. If it's inconsistent then fine. Call it out, but it's also important to recognize when an inconsistency is for the better. Not that this episode is the shining example for that argument, master roshis episode is, but I think it's a pretty nice one regardless.

Yeah. The future Trunks arc had a lot of dumb shit in it. When I acknowledged that the show can just free for all shit, I wasn't being sarcastic. I meant that and I'm well aware of it when it happens and do call out when it does, you won't hear me defending the logic of many of these events. But nonsense isn't all it is. Super can and does explain a lot of shit to, especially as of late and especially with this latest episode. Just like you told me, just because you don't like it doesn't make it dumb.

Yes, it comes off as anal. I've read the arguments and while I shouldn't have generalized and called everyone anal, because I've seen a few arguments that are fair and fine, and I'm sincerely sorry about doing that, most come down to Caulifla is SSJ 2 and that means Goku can't keep up in base. Because I guess I missed the part where these transformation aren't actually power ups that increase the users strength, speed and abilities, they're numbers, and anything not equal or around that number is fucked no matter what. No one has to scream actual numbers to be talking about power levels, just saying that Goku shouldn't be able to do anything in his base form pretty much implies that he shouldn't because his current number is lower than Cauliflas.
Timetraveller wrote:
That's cool that you've injected your own headcanon into the show to attempt to explain things. Let me guess, the super saiyan Broly transformation is based on some Egyptian God who transformed due to their strong love for their sister? It's a kids show and there's no doubt in my mind that none of this was intended by the writers. It's just bad writing to me
That isn't all headcanon my friend. Cabba describes the process as focusing all your strength into your back and then it gives a tingly feeling. It's Caulifla and unfortunatly the fanbase that has chosen to run with the Tingly back description. You can hate the description all you want. It's a very silly way to describe it. But tickling the back isn't all there is to it and it isn't even how Kale gets hers. It's just Caulifla who is ridiculously good at doing it.
Last edited by Boo Machine on Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:15 pm

amuroray wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
amuroray wrote:
Yeh think i have outgrown these type of shows(where merchandise effects ANYTHING with the plot)

Shes the worst character i think i have seen in the dragonball universe
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this sentiment greatly exaggerated and pedantic.

Caulifla has drive, a willingness to learn, a knack for figuring things out quickly, a good heart, and a strong relationship with her best friend and student, Kale.

Can she be cocky and a bit overconfident? Yeah, but so is nearly every pure-blooded Saiyan we've ever seen.

Does she advance a bit quickly? Yeah, but that's because she has natural potential AND a knack for figuring out the best ways to advance from those she learns form.

I honestly don't see what's so repulsing about her.
a bit quickly? By the end of this tournament i wouldnt be surprised if shes close to god level. Never seen this much rapid progressing and dont get me started over kale.

And please dont mention potential. hate that
But you have seen this much rapid progression. We all have. Trunks getting to SSB level within a few episodes, as well as Gohan going from being rusty, to rivaling SSB Goku in a little is rapid.

With that said, I can definitely see why people don't like Caulifla and Kale. I'm neutral on them myself, but I don't see them as anywhere near as offensive as some make them out to be.

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