Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:19 pm

Jigurashi wrote:
amuroray wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this sentiment greatly exaggerated and pedantic.

Caulifla has drive, a willingness to learn, a knack for figuring things out quickly, a good heart, and a strong relationship with her best friend and student, Kale.

Can she be cocky and a bit overconfident? Yeah, but so is nearly every pure-blooded Saiyan we've ever seen.

Does she advance a bit quickly? Yeah, but that's because she has natural potential AND a knack for figuring out the best ways to advance from those she learns form.

I honestly don't see what's so repulsing about her.
a bit quickly? By the end of this tournament i wouldnt be surprised if shes close to god level. Never seen this much rapid progressing and dont get me started over kale.

And please dont mention potential. hate that
But you have seen this much rapid progression. We all have. Trunks getting to SSB level within a few episodes, as well as Gohan going from being rusty, to rivaling SSB Goku in a little is rapid.

With that said, I can definitely see why people don't like Caulifla and Kale. I'm neutral on them myself, but I don't see them as anywhere near as offensive as some make them out to be.
Surprised you didn't mentioned Buu Saga Gohan who went from a rusty Super Saiyan 2 who was actually weaker than he was seven years go to becoming the strongest unfused character by sitting on his ass for 24 hours. At least Cali somewhat worked for Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. She didn't have Kai to do a ritual to unlock her hidden power.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:27 pm

HeroR wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
amuroray wrote:
a bit quickly? By the end of this tournament i wouldnt be surprised if shes close to god level. Never seen this much rapid progressing and dont get me started over kale.

And please dont mention potential. hate that
But you have seen this much rapid progression. We all have. Trunks getting to SSB level within a few episodes, as well as Gohan going from being rusty, to rivaling SSB Goku in a little is rapid.

With that said, I can definitely see why people don't like Caulifla and Kale. I'm neutral on them myself, but I don't see them as anywhere near as offensive as some make them out to be.
Surprised you didn't mentioned Buu Saga Gohan who went from a rusty Super Saiyan 2 who was actually weaker than he was seven years go to becoming the strongest unfused character by sitting on his ass for 24 hours. At least Cali somewhat worked for Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. She didn't have Kai to do a ritual to unlock her hidden power.
I was just using two examples. If we want to get technical, Goku Black and Hitto have accomplished this as well. Hell for some time, that was their main shtick, to improve rapidly in battle. Like it's fine if people want to hate Caulifla over improving rapidly, but she really hasn't done anything as offensive as many seem to claim. Other have improved just as fast as her and sometimes even faster. Doesn't mean you have to like Caulifla, but lets not pretend like Caulifla's the one who started this.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:28 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this sentiment greatly exaggerated and pedantic.

Caulifla has drive, a willingness to learn, a knack for figuring things out quickly, a good heart, and a strong relationship with her best friend and student, Kale.
Speaking as a person who's just coming around to liking the character, it was her introduction that ruined her for me. I think they should've introduced her far sooner than 48 hours before the start of the tournament to give her more build up. When you really consider the fact that she's learned and nearly mastered SSJ and SSJ2 in two days and will possibly learn SSJ3 in the span of 20-30 minutes of tournament fighting, what other opinions can you draw other than that she's a Mary Sue and a blatant cash grab? Good writing at least helps mask this. Now that they're taking the time to grow her abilities at least a little organically, I can now start enjoying those qualities of her character that you listed. Also, her design is a little funky, needs some meat on those bones, at least lean fighter muscles and not stick arms.
Can she be cocky and a bit overconfident? Yeah, but so is nearly every pure-blooded Saiyan we've ever seen.

Does she advance a bit quickly? Yeah, but that's because she has natural potential AND a knack for figuring out the best ways to advance from those she learns form.
Consider this. Goku is a genius at fighting and figuring things out pertaining to transformations and techniques, but even he could not do what even dream of doing what Caulifla is doing in a little over 48 hours. We know this because of how much of his growth we've already seen. If the pace Goku, a fighting genius, has set is equal to a 10 then Caulifla is easily 1,000,000. If it takes Goku 5 years to learn something, she can do it in 5-10 minutes. The problem here isn't that she's a fighting genius who's smarter than Goku, the problem is that her progress is horribly unrealistic even judging by Dragon Ball's in-universe exaggerated rules of realism.
I honestly don't see what's so repulsing about her.
I hope I shed a little light as someone who's coming around to liking her.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:43 pm

So base Goku was able to keep up with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifa with Martial arts. Using things like distance measuring and reading/sensing opponents Rhythms and movements. He also used classic techniques like Zanzoken and utilized Instantaneous movement. It wasn't till Cali adapted by seeing through Goku's movements that she was able to beat him in base form. I hope those who were wanting "skill vs power" battles are some what satisfied.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by amuroray » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:47 pm

Jigurashi wrote:
amuroray wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this sentiment greatly exaggerated and pedantic.

Caulifla has drive, a willingness to learn, a knack for figuring things out quickly, a good heart, and a strong relationship with her best friend and student, Kale.

Can she be cocky and a bit overconfident? Yeah, but so is nearly every pure-blooded Saiyan we've ever seen.

Does she advance a bit quickly? Yeah, but that's because she has natural potential AND a knack for figuring out the best ways to advance from those she learns form.

I honestly don't see what's so repulsing about her.
a bit quickly? By the end of this tournament i wouldnt be surprised if shes close to god level. Never seen this much rapid progressing and dont get me started over kale.

And please dont mention potential. hate that
But you have seen this much rapid progression. We all have. Trunks getting to SSB level within a few episodes, as well as Gohan going from being rusty, to rivaling SSB Goku in a little is rapid.

With that said, I can definitely see why people don't like Caulifla and Kale. I'm neutral on them myself, but I don't see them as anywhere near as offensive as some make them out to be.
Fuck forgot about those. Supers power level handling is a joke

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:01 pm

julianix wrote:Why did ssj2 Goku not destroy Caulifa and kale? It goes against all logic. Even tired and messing around Gokus ssj2 should be well above theirs. This show is getting ridiculous.

Dbs just confirmed that ssj is a set level...

So current ssj2 Goku is the same strength as dbz ssj2 Goku. No other way this makes sense.
That's what I mean when I say Super keeps waffling back and forth on whether it's a level of power or whether it's a multiplier. This episode definitely seemed to suggest the level of power model (which, honestly, would be WAAAY healthier for the series' power scaling), while loads of other episodes suggest that it's a multiplier.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:28 pm

Boo Machine wrote:The show went out of it's way to give you a reason for what happened using what we know. It didn't make anything up. And even then it didn't stay that way the whole fight. Goku eventually got overpowered anyway! This is totally the middle ground. If someone doesn't want to accept it then that's fine but that isn't an issue with the show being dumb that's an issue with those fans choosing to be anal.
Even though I'm clearly not this episode's biggest fan, this episode has been great for discussion. I've loved reading everyone's various thoughts, praises and criticisms of the episode. But this statement is honestly quite rude and dismissive. In your mind, they balanced skill and power this episode, so you enjoyed it. That's great. But not everyone saw it the same as you. I, for example, saw a tired fighter (Goku) managing to somehow overcome his detriments almost immediately to overtake an opponent who should be much stronger. Then, after that, she almost immediately adapts because "amazing potential." Okay, cool. But then the bizarre elements happen. Our worn-out, base form Goku then clashes with Caulifla, where they fight relatively equally. They throw punches and kicks and clash fists, with both exerting about an equal amount of force. Caulifla eventually lands one hit. Goku then goes SSJ2, a transformation that increases speed and power. They then proceed to throw punches and kicks and clash ki blasts with about an equal amount of force. Caulifla eventually lands one hit. So, they fight as relative equals before he transforms and they fight as relative equals after he transforms. That's just silly, in my mind. So, to me, one of those two things is inconsistent. Therefore, this episode is not correctly balancing skill and power in my mind.

Now, does that make me 100% correct? No. It's my opinion. Does that make you 100% correct? No. It's your opinion. We simply have two different views on how the event played out. It's not about being "anal," it's about having different mindsets.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:34 pm

Tombstone1988 wrote: Now, does that make me 100% correct? No. It's my opinion. Does that make you 100% correct? No. It's your opinion. We simply have two different views on how the event played out. It's not about being "anal," it's about having different mindsets.
Yes, you're right, I was very rude and I apologized in another post..somewhere around here albeit perhaps a little poorly, but so as too not have the hassle of looking for it, I'm sorry for generalizing and coming off as dismissive.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Acetona » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:41 pm

Goku's Super Saiyan 2 transformation... Was that a stupid callback to his first time as a Super Saiyan? And... why now? Was it because of the ripped shirt?

Well, screw that! I don't know who were behind this episode's animation, but god damn! They shaded the cheeks correctly! It was truly beautiful.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Hakaishin Liquir » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:43 pm

I have a feeling that a U7 member (aka Android 18) will get eliminated in 116. There's no mentions of a U7 member getting eliminated in 114 or 115, and by the time that 116 airs, that will have been 9 episodes since Roshi got eliminated.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:45 pm

So is Goku regaining his stamina by... fighting? I don't get it.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:49 pm

Asura wrote:So is Goku regaining his stamina by... fighting? I don't get it.
I feel like it's kind of like, someone who is running and getting tired going into a light jog to try and catch their breath. Like a second wind sort of thing. Except in this case, while still fighting he isn't going all out.

Of course this is what some might call head cannon as this wasn't hinted at or anything, I just can't see it any other way besides Goku being made of magic. Which I guess being the main character, that can be a perk.
SUBARASHII! - Goku Black

I am the Great Saiyaman! Defender of truth! Protector of the innocent! Upholder of justice! Doer of good!

To Infinity, then stop!

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:50 pm

This episode was pretty cringey I hate to say. The power up pacing is really just all over the place, it would be me nice to see like actual investment instead of light sparring = next form and able to fight with Goku.

Outside of these Saiyans I've been enjoying Super as of late, but the writing is very sloppy regarding them.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:55 pm

Well Super has always pushed the U6 Saiyans potential. So they are finally delivering it. Toriyama himself is on record stating that Saiyans get stronger as the fight goes on too. Super is being consistent.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:15 pm

Boo Machine wrote:Yes, you're right, I was very rude and I apologized in another post..somewhere around here albeit perhaps a little poorly, but so as too not have the hassle of looking for it, I'm sorry for generalizing and coming off as dismissive.
Ah, so you did. I missed that before making my post. Apologies.
Boo Machine wrote:Of course this is what some might call head cannon as this wasn't hinted at or anything, I just can't see it any other way besides Goku being made of magic. Which I guess being the main character, that can be a perk.
Plot twist: Goku is actually Kenpachi Zaraki from Bleach.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:20 pm

Miracles wrote:Well Super has always pushed the U6 Saiyans potential. So they are finally delivering it. Toriyama himself is on record stating that Saiyans get stronger as the fight goes on too. Super is being consistent.
Goku did it himself in Battle of Gods. Goku got stronger and stronger the more he fought Beerus to the point Beerus accused him of already looking for a way to surpass Super Saiyan God. Then you have Whis' training where he's flustered that Goku and Vegeta see the best progress from punching the shit out of each other over and over.

What Goku is doing here is what Beerus did for him in Battle of Gods. The role reversal is actually kind of amusing.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Simere » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:22 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
Asura wrote:So is Goku regaining his stamina by... fighting? I don't get it.
I feel like it's kind of like, someone who is running and getting tired going into a light jog to try and catch their breath. Like a second wind sort of thing. Except in this case, while still fighting he isn't going all out.

Of course this is what some might call head cannon as this wasn't hinted at or anything, I just can't see it any other way besides Goku being made of magic. Which I guess being the main character, that can be a perk.
I haven't worked out a full thought on this, but I've always found it instructive to think of ki/energy like magic. As in mana. It's something you have a supply of, but it's also something that's generated. Goku burned through all his supply, but he's still capable of building it back up.

I saw Terez say it's like a body part falling asleep: you have to move it to shake off the numbness. I've been thinking something along those lines is also part of it. Goku didn't suffer any grievous injuries, his body is still intact(which is the main factor I attribute to him being able to replenish his ki), but though it's fully functional it's not entirely responsive. He needs action to bring its senses back to life.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:35 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Miracles wrote:Well Super has always pushed the U6 Saiyans potential. So they are finally delivering it. Toriyama himself is on record stating that Saiyans get stronger as the fight goes on too. Super is being consistent.
Goku did it himself in Battle of Gods. Goku got stronger and stronger the more he fought Beerus to the point Beerus accused him of already looking for a way to surpass Super Saiyan God. Then you have Whis' training where he's flustered that Goku and Vegeta see the best progress from punching the shit out of each other over and over.

What Goku is doing here is what Beerus did for him in Battle of Gods. The role reversal is actually kind of amusing.
You see how you just stayed with continuity [the story]? You know, if the fandom could do what you just did they would be happier and see that Super isn't all that bad in consistency.
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by buutenks » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:42 pm

Really enjoyed this episode. Seeing 2 ssj2s duking it out was awesome. Plus i loved the collateral damage. Oh and ssj3, sweet.

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:23 pm

Simere wrote:I haven't worked out a full thought on this, but I've always found it instructive to think of ki/energy like magic. As in mana. It's something you have a supply of, but it's also something that's generated. Goku burned through all his supply, but he's still capable of building it back up.

I saw Terez say it's like a body part falling asleep: you have to move it to shake off the numbness. I've been thinking something along those lines is also part of it. Goku didn't suffer any grievous injuries, his body is still intact(which is the main factor I attribute to him being able to replenish his ki), but though it's fully functional it's not entirely responsive. He needs action to bring its senses back to life.
This is an interesting theory, the idea of getting is body back into gear in particular. However, this isn't without its faults. The main problem is that Goku states multiple times he is exhausted and out of stamina. Now, I'm not 100% on how stamina and ki/energy are connected, but they seem to be treated as separate things. So while I can certainly see ki naturally replenishing over time, even during a fight, stamina doesn't seem to work that way.

In fact, we know it doesn't work that way. Goku runs low on stamina during his fight with Kid Buu and needs to take a break from the action (aka stop fighting) to recover it. Piccolo is relatively equal to 17 when they fight, but 17 comments that Piccolo's stamina is depleting as they fight and will eventually be his downfall. Super itself states that transformations are taxing on the user's stamina, which is why Goku apparently avoids immediately transforming during his various fights in the tournament.

I can buy Goku and Caulifla getting progressively stronger as they fight each other. I don't, however, buy Goku regaining stamina by fighting like this. Strength =/= stamina.
"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

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(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

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