Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
mAcChaos
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by mAcChaos » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:02 pm

Whis talks about Goku "sharpening his senses," so I am guessing his current tired state is more like having a hangover, or a headache, where things are fuzzy and you need to shake it off a bit. Or waking up all groggy from a nap.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell

User avatar
FortuneSSJ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5288
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:41 pm

Cool episode.

The girls did well. Caulifla is love and Kale is much more interesting now than she isn't just a female Broly.

It's because of stuff like this that I love Goku's character. Everything is on the line, but he's still training Caulifla and Kale while recovering his stamina.
I also like how his skill was a factor here.

As always Whis job is to enlighten the dummies.

Kafla next week!
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

User avatar
Noah
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7432
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:06 pm

Tombstone1988 wrote:Now, does that make me 100% correct? No. It's my opinion. Does that make you 100% correct? No. It's your opinion. We simply have two different views on how the event played out. It's not about being "anal", it's about having different mindsets.
Sure, but what the f*** this even means, mate?
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
Cabba
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Cabba » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:11 pm

HeroR wrote: Cali wasn't going all out on base Goku since she clearly power-up in the middle of the fight to match Goku. I didn't think she wanted to win based purely on power.
I'm not saying Goku base would have won either, I'm merely pointed out that base Goku was strong enough to take ounches and heavy hits from SS2 Cauli and not be knocked out and whats more push her back.
She was also taken by surprise by Gokus response in base form, so its not like she didnt want to show off.

When Goku Turned SS2 she said is this really the power of SS2? implying it was beyond a traditional SS2 which she later powered up to. So thats what I'm thinking, that Goku base is strong enough to spar with vanilla SS2
Hasaki wrote: Indeed, took the liberty to combine 2 of them into one picture :D
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
That looks soo good
Last edited by Cabba on Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Saturnine » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:40 pm

Olympian wrote: It`s been that way for a long time. Buu arc also had Goten with no combat/battlefield experience attain the Saiyan form outta nowehere for sake of plot.

It doesn`t matter in the end, all these guys are prodigies.
I see your point, but you gave a bad example. Goten going SSj is not a problem, since it's been explained by inheritance anyway. I don't mind Caulifla being as talented as she is either - i'd be surprised if she were any less talented than she is in fact, considering how strong her base form is. With power like that it stands to reason that she's very experienced.

What bothers me are powerlevel inconsistencies and unnoticeable levels of performance between different SSj forms, previously said to be worlds apart.

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5137
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:04 pm

This episode's martial arts/technique over power logic makes so much of what happened in Z make little sense.

Gohan as a child was consistently stated to be inexperienced in combat. We see this at the start of the series, Vegeta said it in the Namek saga, and Piccolo implied it in the Cell Games. However, when Gohan transformed into a SSJ2, Cell--a being specifically designed to be the perfect fighter--had no chance.

In the Buu saga, Goku depended on Goten and Trunks, two inexperienced little kids, to defeat Buu, a being Goku could not even confidentally defeat as a SSJ3. This, in particular, is funny because they were not invited to the current tournament for the reason of being inexperienced...
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

Tombstone1988
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:06 pm

Noah wrote:
Tombstone1988 wrote:Now, does that make me 100% correct? No. It's my opinion. Does that make you 100% correct? No. It's your opinion. We simply have two different views on how the event played out. It's not about being "anal", it's about having different mindsets.
Sure, but what the f*** this even means, mate?
That was a quote from Boo Machine, who I was originally responding to. That's all bygones now; best not to worry about it.
"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

-Adam from YourMovieSucksDOTorg
(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5577
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:58 pm

Comments on this episode:

- Wait, why is it starting with a scene from late into the episode, before even the OP song? Is this an error with the video or something? Or some kind of weird preview thing?
- "Sadly"? Isn't Freeza on the team we're supposed to be rooting for?
- If Beerus thinks Goku can defeat Jiren, does that mean that he thinks that he's still stronger than both of them?
- Champa's strategy also makes no sense. As long as Jiren isn't a complete idiot (and he doesn't seem to be), there's no way he's going to let the time run out while another universe has more fighters than Universe 11. During the last few minutes he'll just eliminate all of the weaker fighters if he needs to.
- Has Goku ever actually been in a serious fight against a female opponent before? I can't recall. He never fought 18, and Chichi didn't challenge him much...
- It seems that the emphasis of skill over strength that I mentioned is being reinforced again. It could also have something to do with Goku's base form being stronger than Caulifla's though, so it's still able to compete somewhat with her SSJ form.
- Telling your Hakaishin to shut up probably isn't a good idea...
- She's not familiar with basic afterimages?
- I like how they're bringing back the slow, more dramatic transformation, with the hair flashing blond before fully transforming
- After seeing SSJB, Jiren, and Hit in action, does it really make sense for the Zenos to consider Goku and Caulifla's fight amazing?
- Didn't you already fight together with her against the Pride Troopers, Kale?
- I wonder if Jiren is going to step in to stop Kale again, if Goku can't...
- So the new character they've been hyping is probably the Kale/Caulifla fusion...

Pretty good episode overall
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
BlueBasilisk
I Live Here
Posts: 3056
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:58 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:09 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:- Wait, why is it starting with a scene from late into the episode, before even the OP song? Is this an error with the video or something? Or some kind of weird preview thing?
It's a new hype spot they've been doing at the beginning of each episode for the last couple weeks.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5577
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:34 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:- Wait, why is it starting with a scene from late into the episode, before even the OP song? Is this an error with the video or something? Or some kind of weird preview thing?
It's a new hype spot they've been doing at the beginning of each episode for the last couple weeks.
This is the first time I've seen it
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

Spencer_23
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:16 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Spencer_23 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:14 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:- Wait, why is it starting with a scene from late into the episode, before even the OP song? Is this an error with the video or something? Or some kind of weird preview thing?
It's a new hype spot they've been doing at the beginning of each episode for the last couple weeks.

Lol what? Never seen in it until this week

User avatar
Daisetsu
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:08 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Daisetsu » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:24 pm

EDIT: meant to click edit, please delete.
Last edited by Daisetsu on Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Daisetsu
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:08 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Daisetsu » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:25 pm

Spencer_23 wrote:Lol what? Never seen in it until this week
He meant on Japanese TV. The preview just snuck its way into the simulcast this week. Maybe it'll be part of simulcast from now on?
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Gafonso6 wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:

Unless you live in Japan this shouldn't be an issue as the simulcast doesn't have them. Anyway it's probably easy to avoid.
Daisuki has them and AnimeLab too.
Weird I watched it on Daisuki this morning and it wasn't there.
Odd, I just checked and it's still on Daisuki.

User avatar
Telamon
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Telamon » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:43 am

SirTorra wrote:Power levels are a thing of the past, how sad. A tired base goku can go toe to toe with ss2 cauli (should have been like that since the start) yet a ss2 goku is being pushed around by ss2 cauli even though hes 100x stronger than his base form? Let me guess gokus holding back right? Also i really dig Kales adult form.
Its likely stated a lot so far but Goku still outmatches Caulifla bigtime. Caulifla is a prodigy tho, like Goku is in his own universe. Imagine a dragonball series centered around Caulifla that started with her battling foes with like 500 powerlevel etc, and steadily rising. I bet she had her own namek saga battling frost (lol) and whatnot going into to the millions. Think up some more dangerous foes and she could be well into the trillions in baseform at that point. The major difference is: Where goku happened to achieve his Super sayan form around 10 million, the U6 sayans simply never did. This could be due to mindset/mental state or simply situation demands, as in U6 sayans never had to dig that deep because they were never outmatched that severely like goku was vs frieza(who was so much stronger than goku at that point, nothing but that SS transformation could save him). These U6 sayans are achieving their super sayan forms when they are already WAY PAST majin buu levels. This opens up for some MAJOR relative power increases. So yeah, ill buy this episode and most of the things happening to them.

(the Kale vs blue goku kamehameha walk is still bullshit tho, even if goku held back 99,9999% of his power. Ill just pretend this never happened)

What also strikes me as odd is that Caulifla ambitions to go SSJ3 herself. While she never actually saw him do it, or even goku mentioning it (did he? not sure) but went SSG and blue on several moments so why doesn't caulifla nag goku about going blue?

And... why did she mention she is going to beat him? Just when she saw that he`s not even capable of just SSG and Blue (which are WAY beyond her capabilities right now) but also knowing he fought Jiren with UI form..

All in all, i enjoyed the fighting choreography. Reminded me of the Cell style battle scenes.
"Where is Super Sayan 3 against Beerus on the boat/pool party?" -WiseGuy

User avatar
Artorias
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Artorias » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:48 am

I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.

Gig
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:24 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Gig » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:42 am

precita wrote:I'm calling it now, Caulifa and Kale will come to U7 and become mainstays of the cast for the rest of the series.
They teased us with such idea with Future Trunks and Future Mai, but that didn't happen at the end.

However, who knows... considering how useless are Goten and Kid Trunks, maybe these young Saiyans may get some focus in their place.

Or maybe it's possible that only planed Sadal will be revived and placed in U7, so since then its inhabitants may become occasional returning characters liko Jaco... but I don't find it very likely, as Vegeta would be the one to express a such wish, and I don't see many chances for him to be the "winner" of the tournament.

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2207
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:44 am

Artorias wrote:I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.
I definitely agree. My problem with Super currently is that they haven't gone all the way with it yet. I think the biggest example of this in recent episodes was Hit vs Jiren, which was cool up to Jiren literally "transcending time because his so strongth" to beat a technique that he absolutely shouldn't have been able to with sheer power alone.

So basically I love the idea of strategy gaining more and more importance, but the stupid power system of Z is still evident when you have characters like Jiren bending the plot to win fights through nothing but brain-dead "strongths".

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10189
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:58 am

Daisetsu wrote: Odd, I just checked and it's still on Daisuki.
Only other thing I can think of is maybe cuz I watched it on their mobile app?

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:15 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Artorias wrote:I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.
I definitely agree. My problem with Super currently is that they haven't gone all the way with it yet. I think the biggest example of this in recent episodes was Hit vs Jiren, which was cool up to Jiren literally "transcending time because his so strongth" to beat a technique that he absolutely shouldn't have been able to with sheer power alone.

So basically I love the idea of strategy gaining more and more importance, but the stupid power system of Z is still evident when you have characters like Jiren bending the plot to win fights through nothing but brain-dead "strongths".
I'm okay with that because it's no longer universal. Jiren having the strength to break time might be ridiculous, but at least they've established his unnatural strength is something unique to him and the characters respond appropriately to it. Whereas Z suffered from number bloat, where characters just kind of got better at everything the higher their number was. In Z, Super Buu was able to break dimensions by screaming, and Gotenks was able to do the same by powering up to his level. If this where following Z rules where a fair few people in the tournament are stronger than Super Buu, Jiren's feat would be meaningless. Now, it's a clear example of the kind of power he has and the threat he possesses.

They haven't quite got there yet, but on the whole I approve of the direction they're taking with Super. It's following it's own rules, which allow for more varied, interesting and unpredictable fights. People loved the 17 vs Piccolo fight back in the day because it was one of the few fights in all of Z that felt evenly matched. With Super, most fights feel like that. This episode in particular managed to take a fight between a Super Saiyan 2 and a tired base form Saiyan and actually make it close. That's amazing and I love it for that.

User avatar
Kokonoe
Regular
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:42 am

Miracles wrote:Well Super has always pushed the U6 Saiyans potential. So they are finally delivering it. Toriyama himself is on record stating that Saiyans get stronger as the fight goes on too. Super is being consistent.
Look at all of the things Goku had to do to get to where he is, even power freaks like Gohan still required immense training from Goku and Piccolo to even get to where he was at and he was trained hard ever since he was a child.

I see nothing about these Saiyans that imply they undergo insane training, they are just...already there and light sparring causes them to achieve what took characters (including gifted ones) so much hard work and magic like power unlocks to achieve. Even when looking at their bodies being skinny with no muscle it kind of shows a lack of training when characters like Goten and Trunks actually have muscle. Even in oddities like the Buu saga where Goten and Trunks achieved Super Saiyan, you can still argue that they have the genes of a Super Saiyan from their fathers.

Once again, I like Super, but these Saiyans I really am not the biggest fan of.

Post Reply