Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:04 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
Asura wrote: This is a great example of Super being inconsistent, so people who think Super is consistent should really sit down and think about this because one episode with Jiren it relies on power levels and the next with Caulifla and Goku tries to rely on skill and tactics. There's no consistency.
While there are inconsistencies that should be acknowledged this isn't a good example. These are different fighters with different strengths and abilities not every fighter is going to have to be dealt with in the same manner as Roshi's episode proved.

It is a good example of inconsistency that should be happening though. Because Jiren using his muscles to break out of time, while that sounds metal as hell, I feel it was probably the most boring way he could have gotten out of it. Goku in base having the edge over SSJ2 Caulifla because of his experience maybe inconsistent with whatever formula that started getting stale in Z's later arcs, but it's a lot more interesting and still uses what we know about the characters.
"Different fighters with different strengths and abilities" you say? I would say Hit has the most different strengths and abilities out of any other character, and how did his fight with Jiren go? Right, nothing like Caulifla and Goku's whose only differences were brawler vs martial artist, which is thrown out the window very quickly when even Whis acknowledges the brawler vs martial artist skill didn't even matter less than a minute later.

I agree in that I prefer this to Jiren's muscleman abilities that overcome everything thrown at him because power levels, but it's still terribly inconsistent when two situations contradict each other. Either you have power levels or you have different strengths and weaknesses. It just looks bad when the show keeps switching between both.

Ultra Instinct is a good example of something that's skill-based but also shows immense power because it's not just a transformation that makes you X more powerful, it makes it so you instinctively dodge which makes Goku powerful by default. He doesn't need a power level, the abilities of the form make him powerful. Compare that to Jiren who is powerful because... muscles?

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7650
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:19 pm

Zagacious wrote:
HeroR wrote:Surprised you didn't mentioned Buu Saga Gohan who went from a rusty Super Saiyan 2 who was actually weaker than he was seven years go to becoming the strongest unfused character by sitting on his ass for 24 hours. At least Cali somewhat worked for Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. She didn't have Kai to do a ritual to unlock her hidden power.
Is this a troll account? Almost every claim I see you make defending Super either extremely exaggerates problems with DBZ or just dismisses the problems with Super as if they don't even exist. Gohan was training through meditation and that's how he got stronger, similar to how Frieza did but using a Kai to do it for you, as opposed to the people in DBS are actually sitting on their ass doing nothing and getting stronger.

It contributes nothing to the conversation if you can't make a post without exaggerating or straight making things up, it's basically just spamming. I strongly suggest you rewatch DBZ if you actually believe any of this crap you are spewing.
I watched Z and Kai, recently too.

Call me a troll all you want and you can even report me. Nothing I wrote is untrue or even an exaggerate since that exactly what Gohan did in the Buu Saga. Sat on his ass and got stronger because ‘hidden power’ thanks to a ritual. He wasn’t even meditating since his attention got broken.

An example of someone doing mediation and mental training to get stronger is Piccolo, who drastically increased his strength floating in place. Gohan didn’t do that.

Don’t like my shit, don’t read.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
KakaR0T
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by KakaR0T » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:23 pm

At 6:00 into this episode it sounded like Beerus dropped the F-bomb on Champa

User avatar
nato25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by nato25 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:47 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
gofishus wrote:
nato25 wrote:When people say the power scaling is completely broken, i still find that the outcomes of the fights seem true to what people would expect. I cant think of any immediate examples that speak to the opposite.
There's always a few twists though. SSJB Vegeta should have been able to beat Frieza - but it ended up being Goku. SSJB Vegito should have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but ended up running out of time (which was a retcon). SSJ2 Trunks should not have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but he did with a spirit bomb sword learned from who knows ?? SSJ3 Gotenks should have been able to defeat base Copy Vegeta - but he didn't stand a chance. those are just a few off the top of my head...
In this episode, Goku struggled more as a SSJ2 than in his base form. :mrgreen:
Thats kind of the point I was making though, during the fights it seems all over the place, but the outcome seems to remain consistent.

PsionicWarrior - I think I'm misunderstanding your points. It was clear Vegeta would have won that fight, it wasn't Frieza's blast that killed Vegeta but the planet exploding. SSJB Vegito also was a clear winner there I think but the whole potara retcon is a whole nother topic and I already talked about Trunks beating Merged Zamasu, I also hate that ending.

As for SSJ3 Gotenks, I think you could definitely argue at that time Base Copy Vegeta (who from what we know is equal to Base Vegeta) was stronger after being able to obtain SSJB and all that training from Whis. The kids had long slacked off in their training so even multiplying gotenks power as a SSJ3 probably wouldn't be enough. However I don't like that he couldn't even make him flinch. My point stands however, the outcome I think was consistent with expectations.

BWri
Regular
Posts: 732
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:52 pm

HeroR wrote: With Goten, he did say in the manga that he couldn’t remember when or how he became Super Saiyan. He just did. The anime an explanation that he transformed when training with Chi-Chi. Trunks, they didn’t bother to explain anything with him in either the manga and anime.
That is pretty lame then. Lamer than Caulifla and Kale. Seriously, how do you not remember when you've attained such power? I'm glad the anime gave us something. But it could just be the case that he's done it so much that he forgot the first time he did it. If Trunks learned it from Vegeta, by copying him, and Goten learned it from Trunks, then I can forgive it as it would make logical sense, but until its explained (I'm holding my breath) it's pretty lame.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by precita » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:04 pm


User avatar
mAcChaos
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by mAcChaos » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:37 pm

Is it that hard to understand that Goku was just sandbagging?

It gets frustrating reading the same -wrong- complaints over and over again.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell

User avatar
Kuwabara
Regular
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:36 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Kuwabara » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:00 pm

mAcChaos wrote:Is it that hard to understand that Goku was just sandbagging?

It gets frustrating reading the same -wrong- complaints over and over again.
Agreed, sometimes I wonder why certain people on here even enjoy Dragon Ball in the first place. Various details are either overanalyzed or taken at complete face value. Sure, it's great when everything lines up nicely, but Super is mainly entertaining for me because it's just unabashedly fun. This is exactly why Dragon Ball works where other shonen series don't, it isn't afraid to be irreverent.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

User avatar
PsionicWarrior
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:33 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:23 am

nato25 wrote: PsionicWarrior - I think I'm misunderstanding your points. It was clear Vegeta would have won that fight, it wasn't Frieza's blast that killed Vegeta but the planet exploding. SSJB Vegito also was a clear winner there I think but the whole potara retcon is a whole nother topic and I already talked about Trunks beating Merged Zamasu, I also hate that ending.
Sorry I meant 'in this episode' as in THIS episode, episode 113 lol

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:41 am

precita wrote:IGN gave the ep a 7.0:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/10/31/ ... iyan-fight
Yeah, IGNS rating aren't exactly the best indicator of the quality of an episode.

They gave episode 100 one of the highest scores of the entire series with a 7.9
http://au.ign.com/articles/2017/07/25/d ... ens-review

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:42 am

precita wrote:IGN gave the ep a 7.0:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/10/31/ ... iyan-fight
Yeah, IGNS rating aren't exactly the best indicator of the quality of an episode.

They gave episode 100 one of the highest scores of the entire series with a 7.9
http://au.ign.com/articles/2017/07/25/d ... ens-review

User avatar
Noah
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7390
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:42 am

JazzMazz wrote:Yeah, IGNS rating aren't exactly the best indicator of the quality of an episode.
Sure, mate, but no need to double post.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:49 am

Noah wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Yeah, IGNS rating aren't exactly the best indicator of the quality of an episode.
Sure, mate, but no need to double post.
Yeah, my internet is lagging really badly.

Like I have to refresh the page like 10 tens to do anything. Its really messy.

Creating this post alone, I've had to refresh the page at least a dozen times.

User avatar
gofishus
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by gofishus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:45 pm

nato25 wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
gofishus wrote:
There's always a few twists though. SSJB Vegeta should have been able to beat Frieza - but it ended up being Goku. SSJB Vegito should have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but ended up running out of time (which was a retcon). SSJ2 Trunks should not have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but he did with a spirit bomb sword learned from who knows ?? SSJ3 Gotenks should have been able to defeat base Copy Vegeta - but he didn't stand a chance. those are just a few off the top of my head...
In this episode, Goku struggled more as a SSJ2 than in his base form. :mrgreen:
Thats kind of the point I was making though, during the fights it seems all over the place, but the outcome seems to remain consistent.

PsionicWarrior - I think I'm misunderstanding your points. It was clear Vegeta would have won that fight, it wasn't Frieza's blast that killed Vegeta but the planet exploding. SSJB Vegito also was a clear winner there I think but the whole potara retcon is a whole nother topic and I already talked about Trunks beating Merged Zamasu, I also hate that ending.

As for SSJ3 Gotenks, I think you could definitely argue at that time Base Copy Vegeta (who from what we know is equal to Base Vegeta) was stronger after being able to obtain SSJB and all that training from Whis. The kids had long slacked off in their training so even multiplying gotenks power as a SSJ3 probably wouldn't be enough. However I don't like that he couldn't even make him flinch. My point stands however, the outcome I think was consistent with expectations.
Not a fan of the two base theory. base > SSJ3 just sounds wrong...

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Simere » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:34 pm

Asura wrote:This is a great example of Super being inconsistent, so people who think Super is consistent should really sit down and think about this because one episode with Jiren it relies on power levels and the next with Caulifla and Goku tries to rely on skill and tactics. There's no consistency.
It's consistent if you don't conflate tactics with gimmicks, and don't dismiss power as tactic.
"Different fighters with different strengths and abilities" you say? I would say Hit has the most different strengths and abilities out of any other character, and how did his fight with Jiren go? Right, nothing like Caulifla and Goku's whose only differences were brawler vs martial artist, which is thrown out the window very quickly when even Whis acknowledges the brawler vs martial artist skill didn't even matter less than a minute later.
Goku has the most different strengths and abilities; Hit had a couple of unique gimmicks that, unfortunately for him, Jiren wasn't susceptible to. And that's not what Whis acknowledged. He acknowledged that he misjudged Caulifla's ability and/or adaptability.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:45 pm

Simere wrote:It's consistent if you don't conflate tactics with gimmicks, and don't dismiss power as tactic.
So it's consistent if you ignore the things that make it inconsistent? :eh:

Here's the definition for tactic:

Tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

Power isn't a tactic. Power is not an action or a strategy.
Simere wrote:Hit had a couple of unique gimmicks that, unfortunately for him, Jiren wasn't susceptible to.
He wasn't susceptible to it because the power levels deemed him stronger than Hit, but in the case of Goku and Caulifla the reason Caulifla was losing wasn't because of Goku's power level being higher than hers, but because of his "skill" as a martial artist. These are two completely contradicting and inconsistent scenarios.
Simere wrote:And that's not what Whis acknowledged. He acknowledged that he misjudged Caulifla's ability and/or adaptability.
Exactly. The whole set-up with the brawler vs martial artist and Caulifla's ability to adapt completely contradicts and is inconsistent with Jiren being stronger than Hit because power levels.

Super picks and chooses which fights it wants to play as classic DBZ fights with power levels, and which fights it wants to play as skills and tactics vs raw power, and the back and forth between these two things is what makes it inconsistent. Just pick one or the other. Give a fucking reason why Jiren is able to counter Hit's abilities other than "He's so strong that he's above time" or something.

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Simere » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:12 pm

Asura wrote:
Simere wrote:It's consistent if you don't conflate tactics with gimmicks, and don't dismiss power as tactic.
So it's consistent if you ignore the things that make it inconsistent? :eh:

Here's the definition for tactic:

Tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

Power isn't a tactic. Power is not an action or a strategy.
Power is a strategy, and the application of power is an action. If I'm a fighter I can focus on improving the power of my attacks, or I can focus on building up my endurance. If I'm a cop I can bust down a door or I can smoke them out. I can hammer or I can screw.
He wasn't susceptible to it because the power levels deemed him stronger than Hit
If Hit's "time prison" can be broken by power, then it was a bad tactic to choose. It doesn't make you more tactical to do bad tactics even if they look flashy. I suppose you're wishing that his time abilities weren't affected by power in the first place, but 1) they were long ago established to be, and 2) it's the only thing that makes sense in the complete nonsense that is Hit's ability.
but in the case of Goku and Caulifla the reason Caulifla was losing wasn't because of Goku's power level being higher than hers, but because of his "skill" as a martial artist. These are two completely contradicting and inconsistent scenarios.

Exactly. The whole set-up with the brawler vs martial artist and Caulifla's ability to adapt completely contradicts and is inconsistent with Jiren being stronger than Hit because power levels.
Well, again, Caulifla was never just a brawler. Unless you're assuming that Jiren is nothing but brawn, I don't see any contradiction.
Last edited by Simere on Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7650
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:29 pm

Simere wrote:
Asura wrote:
Simere wrote:It's consistent if you don't conflate tactics with gimmicks, and don't dismiss power as tactic.
So it's consistent if you ignore the things that make it inconsistent? :eh:

Here's the definition for tactic:

Tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

Power isn't a tactic. Power is not an action or a strategy.
Power is a strategy, and the application of power is an action. If I'm a fighter I can focus on improving the power of my attacks, or I can focus on building up my endurance. If I'm a cop I can bust down a door or I can smoke them out. I can hammer or I can screw.
He wasn't susceptible to it because the power levels deemed him stronger than Hit
If Hit's "time prison" can be broken by power, then it was a bad tactic to choose. It doesn't make you more tactical to do bad tactics even if they look flashy. I suppose you're wishing that his time abilities weren't affected by power in the first place, but 1) they were long ago established to be, and 2) it's the only thing that makes sense in the complete non-sense that is Hit's ability.
but in the case of Goku and Caulifla the reason Caulifla was losing wasn't because of Goku's power level being higher than hers, but because of his "skill" as a martial artist. These are two completely contradicting and inconsistent scenarios.

Exactly. The whole set-up with the brawler vs martial artist and Caulifla's ability to adapt completely contradicts and is inconsistent with Jiren being stronger than Hit because power levels.
Well, again, Caulifla was never just a brawler. Unless you're assuming that Jiren is nothing but brawn, I don't see any contradiction.
Cali is a brawler, but also a gifted fighter and a fast learner.

And what Whis said was that he underestimated her ability to adapt.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:05 pm

Simere wrote:Power is a strategy, and the application of power is an action. If I'm a fighter I can focus on improving the power of my attacks, or I can focus on building up my endurance. If I'm a cop I can bust down a door or I can smoke them out. I can hammer or I can screw.
Power is not a strategy, at least not in Dragon Ball. There is no strategy to power levels. It's A > B, there's no strategy involved. There is no focus on improving power of attacks instead of endurance, it's just power levels.
Simere wrote:If Hit's "time prison" can be broken by power, then it was a bad tactic to choose. It doesn't make you more tactical to do bad tactics even if they look flashy. I suppose you're wishing that his time abilities weren't affected by power in the first place, but 1) they were long ago established to be, and 2) it's the only thing that makes sense in the complete nonsense that is Hit's ability.
I don't understand what you're saying. It's a bad tactic to choose because Jiren's power level is higher, there is no technique or strategy involved in this. Jiren is stronger than Hit because power levels, he was able to break out of Hit's attack because of his power level. It's not strategy, it's not technique, it's not a tactic, it's just A > B because the writers deem it so.
Simere wrote:Well, again, Caulifla was never just a brawler. Unless you're assuming that Jiren is nothing but brawn, I don't see any contradiction.
Caulifla IS a brawler. She happens to be a brawler that can also adapt. And yes, I am assuming Jiren is nothing but brawn because that's literally all he is. He has no special tactics, he has no special techniques, he doesn't use any kind of strategy. He is powerful because... he's powerful! That's just it, there's nothing else to it.

If you're implying Jiren is just like Caulifla then you're wrong, there's nothing at all to imply that Jiren has some sort of skill or disadvantage he has to overcome and adapt to instead of just being all powerful.

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Simere » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:20 pm

Asura wrote:
Simere wrote:Power is a strategy, and the application of power is an action. If I'm a fighter I can focus on improving the power of my attacks, or I can focus on building up my endurance. If I'm a cop I can bust down a door or I can smoke them out. I can hammer or I can screw.
Power is not a strategy, at least not in Dragon Ball. There is no strategy to power levels. It's A > B, there's no strategy involved. There is no focus on improving power of attacks instead of endurance, it's just power levels.
The strategy to increase your power to fight better has multiple times been featured in DB. From the very start it was the entire premise of Roshi's teachings:

The basics of the Kamesen Style Martial Arts are encompassed within the training you two have been doing for the past 7 months. It seems like you haven't noticed yourselves yet, but your eyes, fists, legs, and even your heads have become extremely keen. Fighting is just the application of your abilities.

I don't understand what you're saying. It's a bad tactic to choose because Jiren's power level is higher, there is no technique or strategy involved in this. Jiren is stronger than Hit because power levels, he was able to break out of Hit's attack because of his power level. It's not strategy, it's not technique, it's not a tactic, it's just A > B because the writers deem it so.
Well, you're out the gate dismissing Jiren's power advantage as one of his tactical advantages. He didn't cast a magic spell or do a fancy pose to get out of it, you're right; he used the strength of his body and his spirit to break free. I don't dismiss strength as a tactic, so it's eminently tactical to me.

Even if you continue to refuse that strength is tactical, surely you have to admit your opponent's strength should at least be part of your own tactical consideration. Hit should have already known that his move wouldn't have worked on JIren, thus making it a bad plan. But I've argued before he did know that, so I don't fault his decision making.
Caulifla IS a brawler. She happens to be a brawler that can also adapt.
Well, I disagree that she was ever a brawler; I think Whis simply judged her too quickly:
Beerus: What do you mean?! You said she was just a brawler!

Whis: Oh? Did I say that? <as he looks away with sweat on his face>
But even granting that she was a brawler, what was her adaptation? To become a martial artist. So it was only "brawler vs martial artist" for the very initial stages of that fight.
And yes, I am assuming Jiren is nothing but brawn because that's literally all he is. He has no special tactics, he has no special techniques, he doesn't use any kind of strategy. He is powerful because... he's powerful! That's just it, there's nothing else to it.

If you're implying Jiren is just like Caulifla then you're wrong, there's nothing at all to imply that Jiren has some sort of skill or disadvantage he has to overcome and adapt to instead of just being all powerful.
It seems we're both looking at the same thing and both seeing it as proof of our different conclusions. I see Jiren beating Goku and Hit as proof that his knowledge as a fighter is as strong as his strength — or, at least, not much below theirs. You see it as proof of inconsistency because you think Hit is a smarter fighter than Jiren and he lost easily, therefore tactics don't matter.

Post Reply