Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7799
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:47 pm

"It's not like just blindly attacking will be effective!". Says the guy in a series where everyone from mooks to "masters" blindly attacking the shit out of one another 90% of the time lol.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
BlueBasilisk
I Live Here
Posts: 3046
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:58 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:29 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:"It's not like just blindly attacking will be effective!". Says the guy in a series where everyone from mooks to "masters" blindly attacking the shit out of one another 90% of the time lol.
A lot of those attacks end up being ineffectual noise and flash, so...he's kind of right? :P

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1014
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by TobyS » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:58 am

I do think its soft retconed.

You have copy Vegeta which was obviously shitty filler. Costumed Beerus which is the same.

The only other one is RoF. RoF wasn't in the manga and hasn't been flashed back to. We can just say Freeza wasn't putting 100% in form four (he certainly wasn't in muscular form).

The only inconsistency that makes is how easy Form 1 Freeza owns Gohan and Piccolo. But like I said, not in the manga and never referenced again.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Noah
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7388
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:41 am

TobyS wrote:You have copy Vegeta which was obviously shitty filler. Costumed Beerus which is the same.
Sorry, but there's no filler in Dragon Ball Super, all these you noted are part of it's story. Super is not an anime based on a weekly manga like Dragon Ball and Z were back in the original serialization. In fact since day one we know that the anime is the main product and the monthly manga just serves to promote the latter.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
Artorias
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:17 am

Asura wrote:
Artorias wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I definitely agree. My problem with Super currently is that they haven't gone all the way with it yet. I think the biggest example of this in recent episodes was Hit vs Jiren, which was cool up to Jiren literally "transcending time because his so strongth" to beat a technique that he absolutely shouldn't have been able to with sheer power alone.

So basically I love the idea of strategy gaining more and more importance, but the stupid power system of Z is still evident when you have characters like Jiren bending the plot to win fights through nothing but brain-dead "strongths".
Yes exactly. They need to go all the way with it. Jiren should have come up with a counter STRATEGY to beat Hit's time trap, not just grunt loudly and overpower TIME ITSELF. That's just stupid and boring. Toei needs to ignore the powerscalers entirely and do a total re-vamp of the system. Let the powerscalers whine and complain, eventually they'll either stop watching or pipe down.
This is a great example of Super being inconsistent, so people who think Super is consistent should really sit down and think about this because one episode with Jiren it relies on power levels and the next with Caulifla and Goku tries to rely on skill and tactics. There's no consistency.
I can't tell if you're implying that I think Super is consistent, but I don't. BUT, I would STILL rather them occasionally allow strategy to overcome strength than continue with the RPG level up bs. I'd rather have an inconsistently interesting show than a consistently boring one.
Tombstone1988 wrote:
Artorias wrote:I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.
There's some merit to your point, but it is full of hyperbole and generalizations. With last week's previous episode you yourself posted that Vegeta thinking he could take Jiren was nonsensical. That's because power level A trumps power level B. If strategy trumped everything else, Vegeta should have been just fine going at him, right?

Power levels being a strict "A always trumps B" thing should go away forever, I agree. But the rules of the "power system" present a means of storytelling in themselves. Jiren is threatening because his power level dwarfs that of Hit and SSB w/ Kaioken Goku, previously established immense powers. Goku Black was a threat because he learned to harness a power that beat even SSB. Golden Freeza was a threat because he could easily go toe-to-toe with Goku's SSB form. If skill and strategy were the only determinants of a winner, Goku should've beaten Goku Black on the first trip back in time. He is, after all, a much better fighter. But that wouldn't be as threatening. It wouldn't carry the same weight as what actually occurred.

And I think you're missing a couple points on the "base Goku vs. SSJ2 Caulifla" debate. One point is that Goku is supposed to be fatigued. He should be exhausted, recuperating after his fight with Jiren. Instead, he's basically running circles around Caulifla. That makes very little sense, regardless of power levels. The other point is that, visually, the fight looked practically the same between when Goku was in his base form and when he went SSJ2. The visual interpretation made it seem like his transformation (which was for some reason elongated, almost like a Namek callback) was almost meaningless. And it's annoying because it's very easily remedied. Have a regular SSJ Caulifla getting schooled by a more skillful Goku, have her slowly adapt, have Goku transform, then have her go SSJ2 to compensate. Boom. Almost everyone's happy. Doesn't fix the fatigue problem, but hey, Super's not perfect.
In regards to your Vegeta point, if you remember, I said I wish Vegeta would say something like "time to find a strategy to beat this guy" or "time to gather warriors for a team assault". I think I'm being pretty consistent here. The impression I got from that Vegeta line was that he was just planning on charging in with no real strategy and all ego, in a brute force, dumb attempt to be badass and whatnot. That's why I had a problem with it. I would actually explode with excitement if Vegeta devised some clever plan behind the scenes to attack Jiren.

Second, I didn't mean they should just drop power levels completely. They're still necessary as a base line, but they should be just that, a STARTING POINT for the overall intimidation factor. You can have both. You can show the enemy displaying massive amounts of raw "power", while still demonstrating that strategy can overcome said raw power. I actually quite liked what they did in the Freeza move, for instance. Golden Freeza beats the shit out of Goku, but Goku notices that Freeza is burning through his energy way too fast, so he stalls for time until his number is bigger. Obviously, that's extremely basic stuff, but hey it's a start.

And that last paragraph, I agree mostly. But that just comes down to a different issue with Super entirely, where what the characters are saying doesn't end up getting represented very well by the visuals. That's just seemingly a disconnect between the story the writer of the episode wanted to tell, and the animators/director wanting to have a cool fight sequence. This "disconnect" is a constant flaw of Super that still continues to plague the show 113 episodes in.

User avatar
PsionicWarrior
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1538
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:33 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:33 pm

lol are people seriously arguing on consistency at episode 113? By now it's a fucking GIVEN that there is very little to no consistency in Super, doesn't make the show any less enjoyable to some, myself included lol

Tombstone1988
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:56 pm

Artorias wrote:In regards to your Vegeta point, if you remember, I said I wish Vegeta would say something like "time to find a strategy to beat this guy" or "time to gather warriors for a team assault". I think I'm being pretty consistent here. The impression I got from that Vegeta line was that he was just planning on charging in with no real strategy and all ego, in a brute force, dumb attempt to be badass and whatnot. That's why I had a problem with it. I would actually explode with excitement if Vegeta devised some clever plan behind the scenes to attack Jiren.
You know what's really sad (for me)? Your post is on this site, right there for me to check and easily confirm. Yet for some reason I didn't. I'm gonna chalk that one up to an old-fashioned brain fart.
Second, I didn't mean they should just drop power levels completely. They're still necessary as a base line, but they should be just that, a STARTING POINT for the overall intimidation factor. You can have both. You can show the enemy displaying massive amounts of raw "power", while still demonstrating that strategy can overcome said raw power. I actually quite liked what they did in the Freeza move, for instance. Golden Freeza beats the shit out of Goku, but Goku notices that Freeza is burning through his energy way too fast, so he stalls for time until his number is bigger. Obviously, that's extremely basic stuff, but hey it's a start.
I agree, stuff like what they did with RoF (although hopefully not as simplistic, like you say) would be nice. Though considering what happened with Hit and Jiren, I'm gonna keep my expectations low.
And that last paragraph, I agree mostly. But that just comes down to a different issue with Super entirely, where what the characters are saying doesn't end up getting represented very well by the visuals. That's just seemingly a disconnect between the story the writer of the episode wanted to tell, and the animators/director wanting to have a cool fight sequence. This "disconnect" is a constant flaw of Super that still continues to plague the show 113 episodes in.
I feel it goes even further than what you state. Another part of the problem, I feel, is in what I put in bold. The writer of the episode. Toei has multiple different writers, each doing individual episodes. Each writer has a different take on how they feel things should play out. Back when it was just Toriyama (and perhaps his editors), things tended to have a more consistent flow because it came from one mind. One vision. Having a bunch of different writers do various episodes really hurts consistency and continuity. Especially if it's an event that spans multiple episodes.
"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

-Adam from YourMovieSucksDOTorg
(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1014
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by TobyS » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:42 pm

Noah wrote:
TobyS wrote:You have copy Vegeta which was obviously shitty filler. Costumed Beerus which is the same.
Sorry, but there's no filler in Dragon Ball Super, all these you noted are part of it's story. Super is not an anime based on a weekly manga like Dragon Ball and Z were back in the original serialization. In fact since day one we know that the anime is the main product and the monthly manga just serves to promote the latter.

Doesn't matter about published format. It wasn't made or praised by Toriyama.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Olympian
Regular
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Olympian » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:50 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Olympian wrote: It`s been that way for a long time. Buu arc also had Goten with no combat/battlefield experience attain the Saiyan form outta nowehere for sake of plot.

It doesn`t matter in the end, all these guys are prodigies.
I see your point, but you gave a bad example. Goten going SSj is not a problem, since it's been explained by inheritance anyway. I don't mind Caulifla being as talented as she is either - i'd be surprised if she were any less talented than she is in fact, considering how strong her base form is. With power like that it stands to reason that she's very experienced.

What bothers me are powerlevel inconsistencies and unnoticeable levels of performance between different SSj forms, previously said to be worlds apart.
I have issue with it because it came outta nowhere.
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

User avatar
Olympian
Regular
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Olympian » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:51 pm

TobyS wrote:
Noah wrote:
TobyS wrote:You have copy Vegeta which was obviously shitty filler. Costumed Beerus which is the same.
Sorry, but there's no filler in Dragon Ball Super, all these you noted are part of it's story. Super is not an anime based on a weekly manga like Dragon Ball and Z were back in the original serialization. In fact since day one we know that the anime is the main product and the monthly manga just serves to promote the latter.

Doesn't matter about published format. It wasn't made or praised by Toriyama.
Haven`t we all debated this before and it`s been noted that as far as Toryama is concerned what counts are his Manga, the anime and Super?
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

User avatar
AvatarReiko
Regular
Posts: 587
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:46 am

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:13 pm

This way off topic but what would happen if Kafla got pregnant and then the fusion ended?

User avatar
Noah
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7388
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:34 pm

TobyS wrote:Doesn't matter about published format. It wasn't made or praised by Toriyama.
Yes it matters, the manga is not the main product, but the anime is. So the content you call "filler" is part of Super story, either you like it or not.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

Post Reply