It doesn't matter. Goku's forms and Vegetto's power are all relative to each-other. If SSG was stronger than Vegetto's base at one point, then SSG will be stronger than Vegetto's base always. Is Kafla stronger than Vegetto? No? The scaling is messed up.HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.
Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
- Torturephile
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
They should know better that this franchise throws rules established in an arc out of the window whenever a new arc begins, many times for the sake of plot.HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.
Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
From Super episode 113 thread:
MaskedRider wrote:The duality of man.Torturephile wrote:hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.The fandom in a nutshell.namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Huh, it isn't. Goku is way stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto by a laughable degree at this point and Cali has shown herself to be comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kale is above that. So why would you compare their fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto?Doctor. wrote:It doesn't matter. Goku's forms and Vegetto's power are all relative to each-other. If SSG was stronger than Vegetto's base at one point, then SSG will be stronger than Vegetto's base always. Is Kafla stronger than Vegetto? No? The scaling is messed up.HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.
Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
If Goku and Vegeta fused now, yes Vegetto would be stronger than her, but that isn't what we're talking about.
It isn't throwing out rules. Goku and Vegeta are much stronger then they were in the Buu Saga. I mean, the entire Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' Sagas were devoted to showing how ungodly strong Goku and Vegeta got in just base form.Torturephile wrote:They should know better that this franchise throws rules established in an arc out of the window whenever a new arc begins, many times for the sake of plot.HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.
Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
You misunderstand. If Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than a BoG base Vegetto back in BoG, then current Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than a current base Vegetto now. That's what I mean when I say they're all relative to each-other: Vegetto's power depends on Goku's, so the difference between their powers will always remain the same. This is simple to grasp.HeroR wrote:Goku is way stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto by a laughable degree at this point and Cali has shown herself to be comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kale is above that. So why would you compare their fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto?
If Goku and Vegeta fused now, yes Vegetto would be stronger than her, but that isn't what we're talking about.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
A couple of thing i forgot to mention in my review.
Last edited by The gr on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Yes, but that wasn't what I was talking about in the my first post. Current Vegetto would be above Cali and Kale's fusion. However, fans are comparing her fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto who is a set number.Doctor. wrote:You misunderstand. If Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than a BoG base Vegetto back in BoG, then current Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than a current base Vegetto now. That's what I mean when I say they're all relative to each-other: Vegetto's power depends on Goku's, so the difference between their powers will always remain the same. This is simple to grasp.HeroR wrote:Goku is way stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto by a laughable degree at this point and Cali has shown herself to be comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kale is above that. So why would you compare their fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto?
If Goku and Vegeta fused now, yes Vegetto would be stronger than her, but that isn't what we're talking about.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
But the complaints come from base Kafla being stronger than SSG Goku. If we've established that current base Vegetto would be weaker than SSG Goku, and you agree that current Vegetto would be stronger than Kafla, then how the hell is base Kafla stronger than SSG Goku? Clearly, there's a problem with the scaling.HeroR wrote:Yes, but that wasn't what I was talking about in the my first post. Current Vegetto would be above Cali and Kale's fusion. However, fans are comparing her fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto who is a set number.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Given that Kale alone was doing relatively well against Super Saiyan God Goku, her fusion being above Super Saiyan God isn't all that shocking.Doctor. wrote:But the complaints come from base Kafla being stronger than SSG Goku. If we've established that current base Vegetto would be weaker than SSG Goku, and you agree that current Vegetto is stronger than Kafla, then how the hell is base Kafla stronger than SSG Goku? Clearly, there's a problem with the scaling.HeroR wrote:Yes, but that wasn't what I was talking about in the my first post. Current Vegetto would be above Cali and Kale's fusion. However, fans are comparing her fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto who is a set number.
Also, I never said that current base form Vegetto would below current Super Saiyan God Goku since we don't know how strong base form Vegetto is compared to Super Saiyan God Goku outside of a guide that said that Vegetto's base was above Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the Buu Saga. What we know from Battle of Gods is that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto, not that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than base form Vegetto if Goku and Vegeta fused at any time after Battle of Gods.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Yes, Kale was doing well against SSG Goku... when she was transformed. Kafla is in her base form.HeroR wrote:Given that Kale alone was doing relatively well against Super Saiyan God Goku, her fusion being above Super Saiyan God isn't all that shocking.
We know it's weaker because Goku confirmed it in BoG.Also, I never said that current base form Vegetto would below current Super Saiyan God Goku since we don't know how strong base form Vegetto is compared to Super Saiyan God Goku
Are you saying Vegetto's power varies? Potara was confirmed to be a multiplier this episode. And Goku literally confirmed back in BoG that the SSG multiplier is bigger than the Potara multiplier. There's nothing here to discuss. It was a plot point established that has been contradicted and people are right to be angry due to the lack of consistency. This isn't about powerlevels, stop bringing up Boo arc Vegetto, he doesn't matter; it's the difference between SSG's multiplier and the Potara's that matters, it will always remain the same.What we know from Battle of Gods is that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto, not that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than base form Vegetto if Goku and Vegeta fused at any time after Battle of Gods.
This is as simple as it gets. I can't believe I have to repeat myself over and over again.
- Torturephile
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
I find it ironic how Tienshinhan was most useful by having Goku use one of his techniques than he himself was during the tournament.
I meant they shouldn't be expecting everything to remain the same once a new arc progresses. Those two characters have undergone training multiple times since the Buu saga, of course their power and skill will improve.HeroR wrote:It isn't throwing out rules. Goku and Vegeta are much stronger then they were in the Buu Saga. I mean, the entire Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' Sagas were devoted to showing how ungodly strong Goku and Vegeta got in just base form.Torturephile wrote:They should know better that this franchise throws rules established in an arc out of the window whenever a new arc begins, many times for the sake of plot.HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.
Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
From Super episode 113 thread:
MaskedRider wrote:The duality of man.Torturephile wrote:hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.The fandom in a nutshell.namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
- PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?
I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.
And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.
And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
- Spider-Man
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
This episode was fantastic.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Welcome to my hell.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?
I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.
And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Took you guys long. I stopped caring about PL when kids with no combat or long training experience got to die their hair blond and be more powerful than characters with a lifehood of it, just to sell more merchandise.Noah wrote:Frankly, I stopped to care about power levels ever since I saw SSJ F. Trunks managing to hit Rosé Black moments prior he almost killed Blue Vegeta.Freeza9000 wrote:Didn't you guys said you'd disown Super after 66 happened?
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Arguing about consistency when it comes to established plot points isn't arguing about powerlevels.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?
I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.
And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Well... Gohan was fighting on par with SSJ2 Goku that means he is much stronger than his buu saga self, that puts Gohan on the DBZ Vegetto tier at leastgiovanni02 wrote: Sure I believe that some powerlevel increase is possible to have happened, though I don't think it's very significant for Gohan (it was just a few hours, after all). However, regarding the potara fusion, remember that Kefla was in complete base form, she has yet to use LSSJ, which means she is equivalent to a fusion of the two bases. Honestly, even if they have a fraction of SSJ3 Boo saga power, the difference shouldn't be that huge, the point is pretty much that they are around that league. I think Goku was holding back until he used SSJ God, he could've just continued in base form, like he did with Beerus after the time limit. In the end, Kefla's base form shouldn't be much stronger than Vegetto's in Boo saga, though there could be a slight advantage for either one (there's also the rival boost and other stuff, like Vegetto being pretty much a perfect warrior in martial arts while Kefla barely learned how to properly fight). Now, obviously, if Kefla uses LSSJ, she could be on a whole other league.
Regarding potara, i dont think it works that way. The powers of the fused character are there it doesnt matter if its transform or not. You cant be some weakling on base form and then suddenly you are a super powerful SSJ
Remember Vegetto in base form was able to hold his own against Buuhan, that puts him above Mystic Gohan/SS3 just on his base form alone, think about that for a sec neither Goku nor Vegeta had nowhere near that amount of power in base form
Crucial part of our argument is whether or not Goku SSJ2 was holding back. Personally i think he was a tired SSJ2 so not full power but he wasn't holding back either thats why i put Cauli at 50% SSJ2 Goku at least
I mean the tracking part, anyways i found it its episode 146 of DB when Piccolo uses the technique against GokuNoah wrote: Well these are the same Kienzan-type and can cut the opponent real easy unlike a ball shaped attack as Sokidan.
Buuhan used similar tracking movement with his ghosts against Vegetto, we even see his arm movements to guide them
In DB manga? or ZOlympian wrote: It goes without saying. It was the first freelly controllable technique of the whole Manga.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Free for all kleptomaniac loved it!Kataphrut wrote:Looking at it that way, it does make Goku seem like some sort of masochist, which wouldn't be completely out of character. "Oh yes, hit me. Hit me harder."OLKv3 wrote:[spoiler][/spoiler]
He's also a thief, and this episode was basically watching a kleptomaniac in action. Like, he apologised to Tien for stealing the solar flare, but at least that's kind of a free-for-all move. He also nicked the Spirit Ball from Yamcha out of nowhere and even stole Yusuke's Spirit Gun! That's not even the same show! It was bad enough that since Black everybody's been ripping off Kuwabara's Spirit Sword but now this too. I suppose it's just as well there's no weapons allowed or we'd be looking out for the Rose Whip as well.
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
- PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
A good portion of the last few pages certainly suggest otherwise.Doctor. wrote:Arguing about consistency when it comes to established plot points isn't arguing about powerlevels.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?
I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.
And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
It might be that seeing it makes this stuff jump out at me more, and it's just my perception playing tricks on me, but my point still stands that it seems to be much more prevalent than it ought to be in this specific thread.
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
Manga. In the anime there`s a chance some filler showed a technique of that nature before the 23rd Bodukai but It doesn`t ring a bell at the moment.Cabba wrote:In DB manga? or Z
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)
When the entire explanation for SSG's usage in-universe is that its effect is stronger than the Potara, a blatant contradiction is obviously going to have people raise their eyebrows. You don't ignore inconsistent plot points, you call it out.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:A good portion of the last few pages certainly suggest otherwise.Doctor. wrote:Arguing about consistency when it comes to established plot points isn't arguing about powerlevels.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?
I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.
And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
It might be that seeing it makes this stuff jump out at me more, and it's just my perception playing tricks on me, but my point still stands that it seems to be much more prevalent than it ought to be in this specific thread.
I don't understand why the fact that it's somewhat related to power level discussions suddenly makes people angry.