Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:14 pm

HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
It doesn't matter. Goku's forms and Vegetto's power are all relative to each-other. If SSG was stronger than Vegetto's base at one point, then SSG will be stronger than Vegetto's base always. Is Kafla stronger than Vegetto? No? The scaling is messed up.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Torturephile » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:22 pm

HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
They should know better that this franchise throws rules established in an arc out of the window whenever a new arc begins, many times for the sake of plot.
From Super episode 113 thread:
MaskedRider wrote:
Torturephile wrote:
hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.
namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:22 pm

Doctor. wrote:
HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
It doesn't matter. Goku's forms and Vegetto's power are all relative to each-other. If SSG was stronger than Vegetto's base at one point, then SSG will be stronger than Vegetto's base always. Is Kafla stronger than Vegetto? No? The scaling is messed up.
Huh, it isn't. Goku is way stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto by a laughable degree at this point and Cali has shown herself to be comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kale is above that. So why would you compare their fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto?

If Goku and Vegeta fused now, yes Vegetto would be stronger than her, but that isn't what we're talking about.
Torturephile wrote:
HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
They should know better that this franchise throws rules established in an arc out of the window whenever a new arc begins, many times for the sake of plot.
It isn't throwing out rules. Goku and Vegeta are much stronger then they were in the Buu Saga. I mean, the entire Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' Sagas were devoted to showing how ungodly strong Goku and Vegeta got in just base form.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:25 pm

HeroR wrote:Goku is way stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto by a laughable degree at this point and Cali has shown herself to be comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kale is above that. So why would you compare their fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto?

If Goku and Vegeta fused now, yes Vegetto would be stronger than her, but that isn't what we're talking about.
You misunderstand. If Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than a BoG base Vegetto back in BoG, then current Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than a current base Vegetto now. That's what I mean when I say they're all relative to each-other: Vegetto's power depends on Goku's, so the difference between their powers will always remain the same. This is simple to grasp.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by The gr » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:27 pm

A couple of thing i forgot to mention in my review.
    The powerscaling is a mess once again,this is no suprise.
      Kale was kinda annoying at time,i didn't liked how kale scolded goku here,at least she isn't being an Awful Broly Clone
        I didn't liked the design of the new fusion and i find her laugh kinda annoying
          Lastly,i did found kale and caulifla interaction cute but i just wish the show gave me a reason to care about these character,we really don't know anything about them.At least caulifla was entertaining here.
          Last edited by The gr on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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          Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

          Post by HeroR » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:28 pm

          Doctor. wrote:
          HeroR wrote:Goku is way stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto by a laughable degree at this point and Cali has shown herself to be comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kale is above that. So why would you compare their fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto?

          If Goku and Vegeta fused now, yes Vegetto would be stronger than her, but that isn't what we're talking about.
          You misunderstand. If Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than a BoG base Vegetto back in BoG, then current Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than a current base Vegetto now. That's what I mean when I say they're all relative to each-other: Vegetto's power depends on Goku's, so the difference between their powers will always remain the same. This is simple to grasp.
          Yes, but that wasn't what I was talking about in the my first post. Current Vegetto would be above Cali and Kale's fusion. However, fans are comparing her fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto who is a set number.
          Kanassa wrote:
          precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
          Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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          Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

          Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:30 pm

          HeroR wrote:Yes, but that wasn't what I was talking about in the my first post. Current Vegetto would be above Cali and Kale's fusion. However, fans are comparing her fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto who is a set number.
          But the complaints come from base Kafla being stronger than SSG Goku. If we've established that current base Vegetto would be weaker than SSG Goku, and you agree that current Vegetto would be stronger than Kafla, then how the hell is base Kafla stronger than SSG Goku? Clearly, there's a problem with the scaling.

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          Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

          Post by HeroR » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:35 pm

          Doctor. wrote:
          HeroR wrote:Yes, but that wasn't what I was talking about in the my first post. Current Vegetto would be above Cali and Kale's fusion. However, fans are comparing her fusion to Buu Saga Vegetto who is a set number.
          But the complaints come from base Kafla being stronger than SSG Goku. If we've established that current base Vegetto would be weaker than SSG Goku, and you agree that current Vegetto is stronger than Kafla, then how the hell is base Kafla stronger than SSG Goku? Clearly, there's a problem with the scaling.
          Given that Kale alone was doing relatively well against Super Saiyan God Goku, her fusion being above Super Saiyan God isn't all that shocking.

          Also, I never said that current base form Vegetto would below current Super Saiyan God Goku since we don't know how strong base form Vegetto is compared to Super Saiyan God Goku outside of a guide that said that Vegetto's base was above Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the Buu Saga. What we know from Battle of Gods is that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto, not that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than base form Vegetto if Goku and Vegeta fused at any time after Battle of Gods.
          Kanassa wrote:
          precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
          Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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          Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

          Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:38 pm

          HeroR wrote:Given that Kale alone was doing relatively well against Super Saiyan God Goku, her fusion being above Super Saiyan God isn't all that shocking.
          Yes, Kale was doing well against SSG Goku... when she was transformed. Kafla is in her base form.
          Also, I never said that current base form Vegetto would below current Super Saiyan God Goku since we don't know how strong base form Vegetto is compared to Super Saiyan God Goku
          We know it's weaker because Goku confirmed it in BoG.
          What we know from Battle of Gods is that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto, not that Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than base form Vegetto if Goku and Vegeta fused at any time after Battle of Gods.
          Are you saying Vegetto's power varies? Potara was confirmed to be a multiplier this episode. And Goku literally confirmed back in BoG that the SSG multiplier is bigger than the Potara multiplier. There's nothing here to discuss. It was a plot point established that has been contradicted and people are right to be angry due to the lack of consistency. This isn't about powerlevels, stop bringing up Boo arc Vegetto, he doesn't matter; it's the difference between SSG's multiplier and the Potara's that matters, it will always remain the same.

          This is as simple as it gets. I can't believe I have to repeat myself over and over again.

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          Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

          Post by Torturephile » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:40 pm

          I find it ironic how Tienshinhan was most useful by having Goku use one of his techniques than he himself was during the tournament.
          HeroR wrote:
          Torturephile wrote:
          HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

          Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
          They should know better that this franchise throws rules established in an arc out of the window whenever a new arc begins, many times for the sake of plot.
          It isn't throwing out rules. Goku and Vegeta are much stronger then they were in the Buu Saga. I mean, the entire Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' Sagas were devoted to showing how ungodly strong Goku and Vegeta got in just base form.
          I meant they shouldn't be expecting everything to remain the same once a new arc progresses. Those two characters have undergone training multiple times since the Buu saga, of course their power and skill will improve.
          From Super episode 113 thread:
          MaskedRider wrote:
          Torturephile wrote:
          hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.
          namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.

          The fandom in a nutshell.

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          Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

          Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:51 pm

          So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?

          I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.

          And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.

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          Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

          Post by Spider-Man » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:52 pm

          This episode was fantastic.
            The Good
              -The animation was fantastic in this episode and the battle was really good.
                -Caulifla and Kale relationship is really cute.
                  -U3 Cop was really funny,he is my favorite member of U3 and Frieza reaction was hilarious.
                    -Kefla was awesome.
                      The bad
                        -I wish Vegeta vs Toppo was a bit longer.
                          -While I do like Kefla design,But I do find her outfit ridiculous.
                            Final Verdict
                              This episode was really good in terms of Visual and Battle and I can't wait to see more of Kefla in the NEP.

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by HeroR » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:56 pm

                              PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?

                              I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.

                              And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
                              Welcome to my hell.
                              Kanassa wrote:
                              precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
                              Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by Olympian » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:58 pm

                              Noah wrote:
                              Freeza9000 wrote:Didn't you guys said you'd disown Super after 66 happened?
                              Frankly, I stopped to care about power levels ever since I saw SSJ F. Trunks managing to hit Rosé Black moments prior he almost killed Blue Vegeta.
                              Took you guys long. I stopped caring about PL when kids with no combat or long training experience got to die their hair blond and be more powerful than characters with a lifehood of it, just to sell more merchandise.
                              Ki Breaker wrote:

                              Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

                              Coincidence? I think not

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:59 pm

                              PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?

                              I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.

                              And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
                              Arguing about consistency when it comes to established plot points isn't arguing about powerlevels.

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by Cabba » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:02 pm

                              giovanni02 wrote: Sure I believe that some powerlevel increase is possible to have happened, though I don't think it's very significant for Gohan (it was just a few hours, after all). However, regarding the potara fusion, remember that Kefla was in complete base form, she has yet to use LSSJ, which means she is equivalent to a fusion of the two bases. Honestly, even if they have a fraction of SSJ3 Boo saga power, the difference shouldn't be that huge, the point is pretty much that they are around that league. I think Goku was holding back until he used SSJ God, he could've just continued in base form, like he did with Beerus after the time limit. In the end, Kefla's base form shouldn't be much stronger than Vegetto's in Boo saga, though there could be a slight advantage for either one (there's also the rival boost and other stuff, like Vegetto being pretty much a perfect warrior in martial arts while Kefla barely learned how to properly fight). Now, obviously, if Kefla uses LSSJ, she could be on a whole other league.
                              Well... Gohan was fighting on par with SSJ2 Goku that means he is much stronger than his buu saga self, that puts Gohan on the DBZ Vegetto tier at least
                              Regarding potara, i dont think it works that way. The powers of the fused character are there it doesnt matter if its transform or not. You cant be some weakling on base form and then suddenly you are a super powerful SSJ
                              Remember Vegetto in base form was able to hold his own against Buuhan, that puts him above Mystic Gohan/SS3 just on his base form alone, think about that for a sec neither Goku nor Vegeta had nowhere near that amount of power in base form

                              Crucial part of our argument is whether or not Goku SSJ2 was holding back. Personally i think he was a tired SSJ2 so not full power but he wasn't holding back either thats why i put Cauli at 50% SSJ2 Goku at least
                              Noah wrote: Well these are the same Kienzan-type and can cut the opponent real easy unlike a ball shaped attack as Sokidan.
                              I mean the tracking part, anyways i found it its episode 146 of DB when Piccolo uses the technique against Goku
                              Buuhan used similar tracking movement with his ghosts against Vegetto, we even see his arm movements to guide them
                              Olympian wrote: It goes without saying. It was the first freelly controllable technique of the whole Manga.
                              In DB manga? or Z

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by Olympian » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:03 pm

                              Kataphrut wrote:
                              OLKv3 wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
                              Looking at it that way, it does make Goku seem like some sort of masochist, which wouldn't be completely out of character. "Oh yes, hit me. Hit me harder."

                              He's also a thief, and this episode was basically watching a kleptomaniac in action. Like, he apologised to Tien for stealing the solar flare, but at least that's kind of a free-for-all move. He also nicked the Spirit Ball from Yamcha out of nowhere and even stole Yusuke's Spirit Gun! That's not even the same show! It was bad enough that since Black everybody's been ripping off Kuwabara's Spirit Sword but now this too. I suppose it's just as well there's no weapons allowed or we'd be looking out for the Rose Whip as well.
                              Free for all kleptomaniac :D loved it!
                              Ki Breaker wrote:

                              Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

                              Coincidence? I think not

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:04 pm

                              Doctor. wrote:
                              PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?

                              I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.

                              And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
                              Arguing about consistency when it comes to established plot points isn't arguing about powerlevels.
                              A good portion of the last few pages certainly suggest otherwise.

                              It might be that seeing it makes this stuff jump out at me more, and it's just my perception playing tricks on me, but my point still stands that it seems to be much more prevalent than it ought to be in this specific thread.

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by Olympian » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:04 pm

                              Cabba wrote:In DB manga? or Z
                              Manga. In the anime there`s a chance some filler showed a technique of that nature before the 23rd Bodukai but It doesn`t ring a bell at the moment.
                              Ki Breaker wrote:

                              Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

                              Coincidence? I think not

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                              Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

                              Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:08 pm

                              PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
                              Doctor. wrote:
                              PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So........ Is another thread gonna be swallowed up by power level grievances?

                              I find it's hard to enjoy the episodes as much when I see this kind of back-and-forth debate, ESPECIALLY if there's so much negativity.

                              And it's not like I can just avoid this discussion. I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in these discussions, so I can't just ignore this, either.
                              Arguing about consistency when it comes to established plot points isn't arguing about powerlevels.
                              A good portion of the last few pages certainly suggest otherwise.

                              It might be that seeing it makes this stuff jump out at me more, and it's just my perception playing tricks on me, but my point still stands that it seems to be much more prevalent than it ought to be in this specific thread.
                              When the entire explanation for SSG's usage in-universe is that its effect is stronger than the Potara, a blatant contradiction is obviously going to have people raise their eyebrows. You don't ignore inconsistent plot points, you call it out.

                              I don't understand why the fact that it's somewhat related to power level discussions suddenly makes people angry.

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