Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:17 pm

Doctor. wrote:It doesn't matter to which Vegetto it's referring. Goku basically says "The power boost of Super Saiyan God is bigger than the power boost of the Potara (with Super Saiyan on top)." We're not talking about character strength or powerlevels, we're talking about an established plot point: SSG's boost is bigger than Potara's.
So I took a look and I believe the quote you're referring to is Goku saying "The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta, and even then I don't think I could win." It's from the end of episode 5. First of all, that statement is not at all definitive. However, judging from what happens in the arc itself, we can safely assume that the boost from SSG was bigger than potara fusion at that point in time.

I stress this point because fusion doesn't exactly follow conventional rules. You've talked about relative strengths in a couple posts, but I feel you're viewing fusion in the same vein as, say, going Super Saiyan. In other words, you're viewing it in the scope of linear progression. For anyone that hates math, you might want to stop here; this is simple stuff, but it's math nonetheless. Also, please do note that the exact numbers are not what's important here, but the concept.

Goku going from base form to SSJ is a linear increase in power in terms of numbers; if Goku is x, then SSJ Goku is 50x. In the same manner, Goku going SSG is also likely a linear rise in power. There's no "official multiplier" for it, but just for the sake of this, let's say SSG is equal to 5000x.

Fusion, however, is likely more of an exponential increase in power. For example, if Goku (x) fused with Vegeta (y), their power would be something like (x + y)^3. The rise in power is WAY more than a transformation; this is backed up numerous times in the Buu arc. This is important because it means that the increase in power is far greater the larger the variables (x and y) are. Kale and Caulifla are almost certainly stronger than Goku was back when he first fought Beerus in Battle of Gods. Ergo, their fusion is likely to be a far greater boost in power than if Goku and Vegeta fused back in Battle of Gods. Great enough to, perhaps, trump Goku's linear 5000x transformation.

Obviously none of this is concrete. There's no definitive answer on fusion. But it's food for thought.
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:20 pm

Tombstone1988 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It doesn't matter to which Vegetto it's referring. Goku basically says "The power boost of Super Saiyan God is bigger than the power boost of the Potara (with Super Saiyan on top)." We're not talking about character strength or powerlevels, we're talking about an established plot point: SSG's boost is bigger than Potara's.
So I took a look and I believe the quote you're referring to is Goku saying "The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta, and even then I don't think I could win." It's from the end of episode 5. First of all, that statement is not at all definitive. However, judging from what happens in the arc itself, we can safely assume that the boost from SSG was bigger than potara fusion at that point in time.

I stress this point because fusion doesn't exactly follow conventional rules. You've talked about relative strengths in a couple posts, but I feel you're viewing fusion in the same vein as, say, going Super Saiyan. In other words, you're viewing it in the scope of linear progression. For anyone that hates math, you might want to stop here; this is simple stuff, but it's math nonetheless. Also, please do note that the exact numbers are not what's important here, but the concept.

Goku going from base form to SSJ is a linear increase in power in terms of numbers; if Goku is x, then SSJ Goku is 50x. In the same manner, Goku going SSG is also likely a linear rise in power. There's no "official multiplier" for it, but just for the sake of this, let's say SSG is equal to 5000x.

Fusion, however, is likely more of an exponential increase in power. For example, if Goku (x) fused with Vegeta (y), their power would be something like (x + y)^3. The rise in power is WAY more than a transformation; this is backed up numerous times in the Buu arc. This is important because it means that the increase in power is far greater the larger the variables (x and y) are. Kale and Caulifla are almost certainly stronger than Goku was back when he first fought Beerus in Battle of Gods. Ergo, their fusion is likely to be a far greater boost in power than if Goku and Vegeta fused back in Battle of Gods. Great enough to, perhaps, trump Goku's linear 5000x transformation.

Obviously none of this is concrete. There's no definitive answer on fusion. But it's food for thought.
That would work had Vados not stated this episode that fusion multiplies their power "dozens of times over," suggesting that it's a set multiplier. You're the only person who so far has proposed a plausible explanation, though.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:03 pm

Doctor. wrote:That would work had Vados not stated this episode that fusion multiplies their power "dozens of times over," suggesting that it's a set multiplier. You're the only person who so far has proposed a plausible explanation, though.
So she does. "Her new body and personality are more than the sum of their parts and their power increases tens of times." It's a rather ridiculous line. It also doesn't really mesh with what was portrayed in the Buu arc. Silly inconsistent Super. You can add this line from Vados to my list of "things I disliked" about this episode.
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by avasatu » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:18 pm

Doctor. wrote:Remember when they established the previous arc that Potara at this level of power is basically useless because you burn through all your Ki in an instant? Funny, that.

Remember when they established back in BoG that Super Saiyan God was a bigger power boost than a Potara fusion (with SS forms on top of that)?

More hilarious is the fact that Toei thinks we care about that forced terrible emotional moment at the start when they've given us NOTHING to care about with these characters.

What a terrible episode, thank God the visuals were great.
Well, it's not clear that Kefla is above SSB, and only SSB Vegito defused extremely quickly. Besides that, we don't know that Kefla won't defuse.

It is still true that SSG off of base Goku in the BoG arc was a massive power boost beyond Vegito. But then he went and trained with Whis for months on end just to reaccess what I presume to be a form at similar power (probably a little higher) as a transformation rather than as the result of a ritual. I find no contradiction here.

I agree with your last point, though.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by precita » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:49 pm

If you guys consider this ep a, "terrible episode" then why even bother watching at this point?

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by RedHeat » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:56 pm

precita wrote:If you guys consider this ep a, "terrible episode" then why even bother watching at this point?
You shouldn't be surprised at this point that there are some individuals that won't enjoy anything in regards to Super.
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Drellz26 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:13 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Tombstone1988 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It doesn't matter to which Vegetto it's referring. Goku basically says "The power boost of Super Saiyan God is bigger than the power boost of the Potara (with Super Saiyan on top)." We're not talking about character strength or powerlevels, we're talking about an established plot point: SSG's boost is bigger than Potara's.
So I took a look and I believe the quote you're referring to is Goku saying "The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta, and even then I don't think I could win." It's from the end of episode 5. First of all, that statement is not at all definitive. However, judging from what happens in the arc itself, we can safely assume that the boost from SSG was bigger than potara fusion at that point in time.

I stress this point because fusion doesn't exactly follow conventional rules. You've talked about relative strengths in a couple posts, but I feel you're viewing fusion in the same vein as, say, going Super Saiyan. In other words, you're viewing it in the scope of linear progression. For anyone that hates math, you might want to stop here; this is simple stuff, but it's math nonetheless. Also, please do note that the exact numbers are not what's important here, but the concept.

Goku going from base form to SSJ is a linear increase in power in terms of numbers; if Goku is x, then SSJ Goku is 50x. In the same manner, Goku going SSG is also likely a linear rise in power. There's no "official multiplier" for it, but just for the sake of this, let's say SSG is equal to 5000x.

Fusion, however, is likely more of an exponential increase in power. For example, if Goku (x) fused with Vegeta (y), their power would be something like (x + y)^3. The rise in power is WAY more than a transformation; this is backed up numerous times in the Buu arc. This is important because it means that the increase in power is far greater the larger the variables (x and y) are. Kale and Caulifla are almost certainly stronger than Goku was back when he first fought Beerus in Battle of Gods. Ergo, their fusion is likely to be a far greater boost in power than if Goku and Vegeta fused back in Battle of Gods. Great enough to, perhaps, trump Goku's linear 5000x transformation.

Obviously none of this is concrete. There's no definitive answer on fusion. But it's food for thought.
That would work had Vados not stated this episode that fusion multiplies their power "dozens of times over," suggesting that it's a set multiplier. You're the only person who so far has proposed a plausible explanation, though.

Not even trying to troll but I really need you explain how god is more powerful than Vegetto would be now. That just doesn’t make sense to me, maybe I’m just understanding you wrong.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Noah » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:28 pm

precita wrote:If you guys consider this ep a, "terrible episode" then why even bother watching at this point?
Says the person who always says "if x thing happens in Super it will be the last straw that breaks the camels back" meaning that would abandon the series, but never really do.
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:40 pm

Fusion has always been one of those completely nonsensical things without any kind of official knowledge of multipliers, so Kefla's strength doesn't really bother me that much since fusion has always been ambiguous and sort of nonsensical in just how powerful it is.

Didn't Elder Kai once say something about how depending on your relationship with the other person, it can make the fusion even stronger? Like didn't he say because Goku and Vegeta were rivals that the fusion is stronger as a result? Or was that a dub only thing? Maybe the same thing could be said about Caulifla and Kale because of how close they are, thus making the combination more powerful. I would at least think that makes sense when you think about it. Two people who have a very strong bond with each other that fight side-by-side would have a more powerful fusion than two randoms fusing like Gohan and Vegeta or something.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:42 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Artorias wrote:Vegeta continues to be an arrogant asshole stuck in the Cell saga with that stupid "I'm the best Saiyan" line. They really need to STOP writing him like that. It's no longer "badass", it's just annoying, empty bragging that means nothing and actually makes him look clinically delusional.

Does Vegeta bragging make him an asshole or Cell Vegeta? I guess I just don’t see it. I mean obviously he isn’t the best Saiyan lol but Vegeta is always going to be a bit arrogant. It’s just part of his character I guess. Cell Vegeta wasn’t just arrogant he only cared about himself. There is a big difference.


However I do think certain writers struggle with Vegeta. This episode was written by the same writer who wrote that Vegeta wouldn’t give his energy to Goku. Another scene I disliked. Maybe not the best writer for Vegeta. And I also think Vegeta suffers the most in this arc when he just has a small scene here or there.

Compare it to how Vegeta is written when he gets more focus. He’s still arrogant but we see more sides of his personality not just that arrogant side & we see he actually cares (about Roshi, about Cabba, or even Goku when he jumped in to help against U9 even though he said he wasn’t helping)

Anyways I agree with your sentiment that I don’t like when Vegeta is written like this (I just try to stay amused at it) but hate the sentiment that every time Vegeta isn’t perfect he’s regressed back to Cell Vegeta.
Its's the delusional way he goes about flaunting his arrogance that reminds me of the Cell saga. He just saw Goku achieve a form never before seen that FAR surpasses him, and yet he's still dropping lines about how he's the best and he's ready to kick ass and all this. Like, dude, give it up. You aren't fooling anyone. It gives me the same vibes as when he was was getting his arm broken by 18 and getting surpassed by Piccolo, and still he was going on and on about how he's hot shit.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Torturephile » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:44 pm

precita wrote:If you guys consider this ep a, "terrible episode" then why even bother watching at this point?
Bile fascination.
From Super episode 113 thread:
MaskedRider wrote:
Torturephile wrote:
hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.
namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
The fandom in a nutshell.
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by nato25 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:10 pm

Lets also remember this ssg goku is still exhausted. Its been only 4 minutes or so since his fight with jiren. I was shocked base kefla could beat ssg myself but with how powerful potara is and goku in a weakened god state i think its plausible.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:14 pm

The animation this episode was FANTASTIC! I daresay better than the hour special! That opening with Kale was amazing!

It was a fairly decent episode, much better than last week. It was nice to see God make a return, and the tag team between Kale and Caulifla was really cool this week.

Now lets talk about Kefla: I gotta say, I love her already. Her design, the stereo voicing they went with, her personality (from what we've seen so far), all of it won me over.

My ONE gripe: The use of the Potara. I don't really know how I feel about them sneaking Potara in and using them as a last resort. What would have happened had Kale gotten thrown out during her explosions earlier? To that effect, the Zenos nor the GP have yet to comment on it. It seems really odd to me how they keep bending the rules, but at the same I'm waiting for Frieza to kill someone and the Zenos say "we thought it was cool!" and killing becomes allowed (only for Hit to be on the sidelines like "BRUH!")

Rambling done. Solid, fun episode! :thumbup:

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by HeroR » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:14 pm

nato25 wrote:Lets also remember this ssg goku is still exhausted. Its been only 4 minutes or so since his fight with jiren. I was shocked base kefla could beat ssg myself but with how powerful potara is and goku in a weakened god state i think its plausible.
I don't think Goku is as weak as some believe since if je was that bad off he wouldn't have been able to go Super Saiyan God to begin with or hold it this long, see Super Saiyan 3. The episode also said he was surpassing his limits.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:47 pm

Doctor. wrote:
HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
It doesn't matter. Goku's forms and Vegetto's power are all relative to each-other. If SSG was stronger than Vegetto's base at one point, then SSG will be stronger than Vegetto's base always. Is Kafla stronger than Vegetto? No? The scaling is messed up.
Meh... Vegetto is as strong as the plot needs him to be(same with Kefla). I mean his base form may have been equal to SSB Goku or Vegeta in the Future Trunks Arc (sort of like how his base was equal to SSJ3 Goku in the Boo Arc). Even the GT Perfect Files state that he was on par with SSJ4 (which is probably equal to SSG/SSB) back in the Boo Arc. Vegetto at this point is so strong that he can only last 10 minutes before draining the Potara. The point is... Vegetto is as strong as the writers at Toei deem necessary and it's just easier if people stopped caring about the scaling in Super.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:50 pm

HeroR wrote:
nato25 wrote:Lets also remember this ssg goku is still exhausted. Its been only 4 minutes or so since his fight with jiren. I was shocked base kefla could beat ssg myself but with how powerful potara is and goku in a weakened god state i think its plausible.
I don't think Goku is as weak as some believe since if je was that bad off he wouldn't have been able to go Super Saiyan God to begin with or hold it this long, see Super Saiyan 3. The episode also said he was surpassing his limits.
Correct. Goku is getting stronger throughout the tournament and improving his forms. He's clearly stronger than he was when he entered the ToP and he's going fully master UI by the time it's all said and done.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:52 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Tombstone1988 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It doesn't matter to which Vegetto it's referring. Goku basically says "The power boost of Super Saiyan God is bigger than the power boost of the Potara (with Super Saiyan on top)." We're not talking about character strength or powerlevels, we're talking about an established plot point: SSG's boost is bigger than Potara's.
So I took a look and I believe the quote you're referring to is Goku saying "The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta, and even then I don't think I could win." It's from the end of episode 5. First of all, that statement is not at all definitive. However, judging from what happens in the arc itself, we can safely assume that the boost from SSG was bigger than potara fusion at that point in time.

I stress this point because fusion doesn't exactly follow conventional rules. You've talked about relative strengths in a couple posts, but I feel you're viewing fusion in the same vein as, say, going Super Saiyan. In other words, you're viewing it in the scope of linear progression. For anyone that hates math, you might want to stop here; this is simple stuff, but it's math nonetheless. Also, please do note that the exact numbers are not what's important here, but the concept.

Goku going from base form to SSJ is a linear increase in power in terms of numbers; if Goku is x, then SSJ Goku is 50x. In the same manner, Goku going SSG is also likely a linear rise in power. There's no "official multiplier" for it, but just for the sake of this, let's say SSG is equal to 5000x.

Fusion, however, is likely more of an exponential increase in power. For example, if Goku (x) fused with Vegeta (y), their power would be something like (x + y)^3. The rise in power is WAY more than a transformation; this is backed up numerous times in the Buu arc. This is important because it means that the increase in power is far greater the larger the variables (x and y) are. Kale and Caulifla are almost certainly stronger than Goku was back when he first fought Beerus in Battle of Gods. Ergo, their fusion is likely to be a far greater boost in power than if Goku and Vegeta fused back in Battle of Gods. Great enough to, perhaps, trump Goku's linear 5000x transformation.

Obviously none of this is concrete. There's no definitive answer on fusion. But it's food for thought.
That would work had Vados not stated this episode that fusion multiplies their power "dozens of times over," suggesting that it's a set multiplier. You're the only person who so far has proposed a plausible explanation, though.
I wonder if it could possibly be the combined strength of both then multiplied by dozens of times. Or the multiplied strength of both then multiplied again by a set multiplier. That would make more sense...
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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by HeroR » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:22 am

Kaiosama wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
HeroR wrote:I find it more weird that a lot of the complaints about Super's scaling being mess up and this episode making no sense are from people comparing Cali and Kale's fusion to Super Vegetto from the Buu Saga and thinking Super Saiyan God Goku in this episode is the exact same strength as Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods.

Like, how can you complain about scaling when you don't have a firm understanding that Super Saiyan isn't a level? Not all Super Saiyan 2 are Cell or Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta's level.
It doesn't matter. Goku's forms and Vegetto's power are all relative to each-other. If SSG was stronger than Vegetto's base at one point, then SSG will be stronger than Vegetto's base always. Is Kafla stronger than Vegetto? No? The scaling is messed up.
Meh... Vegetto is as strong as the plot needs him to be(same with Kefla). I mean his base form may have been equal to SSB Goku or Vegeta in the Future Trunks Arc (sort of like how his base was equal to SSJ3 Goku in the Boo Arc). Even the GT Perfect Files state that he was on par with SSJ4 (which is probably equal to SSG/SSB) back in the Boo Arc. Vegetto at this point is so strong that he can only last 10 minutes before draining the Potara. The point is... Vegetto is as strong as the writers at Toei deem necessary and it's just easier if people stopped caring about the scaling in Super.
In the manga maybe, but the anime leaves it vague since he went straight to Blue and didn't attack Merged Zamasu.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Gig » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:33 am

I find a bit odd the "previews" they added at the beginning of the episodes. Spoiler even for who avoided watching the NEP at the end of the previous episode!
They do remind me about some '80 TV shows, such as the A-Team... but they were shows which had almost no horizontal plot at all...

I have the impression they added them as a cheap way to save some time on production schedule, by having to actually create a minute less of animation, while keeping the same overall lenght...

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Re: Super Episode 114 (5 November 2017)

Post by Zillamon51 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:41 am

Now that Potara are in play, will we get Vegito vs. Jiren?
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