Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Artorias
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:53 am

The single biggest problem with this episode is that literally every single fight they cut away to was more exciting than the main event Goku vs. Kefla. And I think I speak for most of the fandom when I say that. When all is said and done, we will have spent FOUR EPISODES IN A ROW on this Goku vs. Kale/Caulifla/Kefla fight. FOUR WEEKS of this stuff. That would be excessive for a fight we actually deeply cared about, let alone this nonsense.

For the love of god, show us Vegeta and Toppo, or the Androids, or the awesome Piccolo and Gohan vs. Namekians fight. Why are they insisting on hiding the interesting content and highlighting this?

I'm sorry, but this kinda stuff REALLY gets to me. This tournament is focusing WAY too much on Goku and not enough on the interesting challenges of the side characters. I'd much rather see Gohan and Piccolo using teamwork and devising clever strategies than watch Goku power up and fire a Kamehameha for the billionth time.

And this is coming from someone who's favorite character is Goku.
JazzMazz wrote:
Artorias wrote:And thus, Super ends it's streak of good episodes. Twas fun while it lasted I guess. Hopefully a new streak begins next week.
Its a damn shame as well. This episode could have been really good if the direction was properly handled the and the animation wasn't mostly done by Kitano.
Oh so THAT'S why the animation was so mediocre lmao. Didn't notice Kitano's art style anywhere so I didn't suspect he was here. Kitano animation coupled with this mediocre direction certainly ain't a good recipe.

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3446
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by LightBing » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:08 am

It really feels like they can't tackle this section of Mr.Toriyama's outline, either by incompetence, poor choices or some weird miscommunication.

I can imagine the outline, Goku vs the Saiyan Girls with a good amount of detail and the rest with none or barely a mention. Something like: meanwhile Toppo and Vegeta are still fighting, Freeza is still being sneaky, Piccolo and Gohan are still fighting but Mr.Toriyama forgot to mention them in the last five pages. Androids aren't even mentioned.

If this is really the case, expand! Toyotarõ had no problem doing it, the anime itself had no problem doing it before. Why have they hit a wall here?

User avatar
Artorias
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:11 am

LightBing wrote:It really feels like they can't tackle this section of Mr.Toriyama's outline, either by incompetence, poor choices or some weird miscommunication.

I can imagine the outline, Goku vs the Saiyan Girls with a good amount of detail and the rest with none or barely a mention. Something like: meanwhile Toppo and Vegeta are still fighting, Freeza is still being sneaky, Piccolo and Gohan are still fighting but Mr.Toriyama forgot to mention them in the last five pages. Androids aren't even mentioned.

If this is really the case, expand! Toyotarõ had no problem doing it, the anime itself had no problem doing it before. Why have they hit a wall here?
I honestly don't even think Toriyama gives that much direction. I wouldn't be surprised if for this arc, he simply said something like "There is a tournament of power to decide the fate of the universes. Goku goes and recruits everyone. They all go in the arena and have epic fights. Eventually X character wins in a final battle with X character. The winner then wishes every universe back with the Super Dragon Balls. The end"

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:15 am

LightBing wrote:It really feels like they can't tackle this section of Mr.Toriyama's outline, either by incompetence, poor choices or some weird miscommunication.

I can imagine the outline, Goku vs the Saiyan Girls with a good amount of detail and the rest with none or barely a mention. Something like: meanwhile Toppo and Vegeta are still fighting, Freeza is still being sneaky, Piccolo and Gohan are still fighting but Mr.Toriyama forgot to mention them in the last five pages. Androids aren't even mentioned.

If this is really the case, expand! Toyotarõ had no problem doing it, the anime itself had no problem doing it before. Why have they hit a wall here?
Again, I think the problem with this episode wasn't about the content necessarily, it was about the direction and execution of the content. Which was handled extremely poorly.

It felt like there was minimal effort in the direction to try and make the Goku vs Kelfa fight feel tense and what was emphasized in the fight was really poorly strange and usually poorly done.

User avatar
Olympian
Regular
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Olympian » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:23 am

This has been honestly meh and part of what I was talking about in the other thread.

Four episodes of Goku looking cool and doing everything where other interesting fights that could push the narrative and unique character interaction further, get background treatment. This is boring af and I`m burned on Goku.

Wake me up when Decembers starts.
Last edited by Olympian on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 3494
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by emperior » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:23 am

Artorias wrote:
LightBing wrote:It really feels like they can't tackle this section of Mr.Toriyama's outline, either by incompetence, poor choices or some weird miscommunication.

I can imagine the outline, Goku vs the Saiyan Girls with a good amount of detail and the rest with none or barely a mention. Something like: meanwhile Toppo and Vegeta are still fighting, Freeza is still being sneaky, Piccolo and Gohan are still fighting but Mr.Toriyama forgot to mention them in the last five pages. Androids aren't even mentioned.

If this is really the case, expand! Toyotarõ had no problem doing it, the anime itself had no problem doing it before. Why have they hit a wall here?
I honestly don't even think Toriyama gives that much direction. I wouldn't be surprised if for this arc, he simply said something like "There is a tournament of power to decide the fate of the universes. Goku goes and recruits everyone. They all go in the arena and have epic fights. Eventually X character wins in a final battle with X character. The winner then wishes every universe back with the Super Dragon Balls. The end"
I doubt the Tournament part is this barebone, and behind the scenes Toriyama probably gives some pointers.
He 99% wrote how Ultra Instinct is achieved, how it works and the Gods' reaction to it. He very probably also wrote the "breaking through shell" bit as it was said a few times, and the tingle back thing to go SSJ was also 99% his idea, along with the girls fusing and Jiren's power. Hit being beaten before the first half was probably also from Toriyama considering how much Toei loves Hit.
I believe Toriyama probably detailed more the later fights, and we will see more of his writing later down the road. I think he detailed all of U7's remaining fighters fate.

By the way, we will definitely know more about Toriyama's involvement in this arc with the manga.
My canon

Nero<>Akira
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:05 am

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:27 am

So what was that about Goku NOT being tired and NOT being at 5% of his power when he could only fight at base kaioken for a short period and that's why base kafla was stronger in base ;)?
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

User avatar
Noah
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7388
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Noah » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:31 am

JulieYBM wrote:Blue Kaiou-ken looks nice, but I sure hope it goes away forever after this arc. I want Gokuu to just focus on Mastery of Self-Movement from now on.
Although I think this is quite possible, I don't know how I would feel about Goku using UI so easy as he use Blue nowadays, I think it would become cheap.
Dbzfan94 wrote:I'm honestly getting really sick of these fodder characters getting blasted away and not getting eliminated. What purpose are they serving at this point? Early on in the arc people got knocked out from much less.
Exactly! Is like they want these guys to stay there to just knock it all in the last 5 minutes of the ToP for you know... Forced drama :problem:
JazzMazz wrote:The worst thing about this fight is, its not going to lead into anything. At the end of it, Goku's just going to go back to being tired and "vulnerable" like he 4 episodes ago. That means we're probably going to have to repeat this whole recover bullshit all over again.

This the basic narrative equivalent of the multiple incursions to the future in the sense one of those times probably could have been skipped. Instead of going to the future too many times, its instead Goku getting his stupid third wind.
No, I think the worst thing is all this stamina-fatigue circle In-Universe is something like 5 or 6 minutes.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:36 am

Noah wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Blue Kaiou-ken looks nice, but I sure hope it goes away forever after this arc. I want Gokuu to just focus on Mastery of Self-Movement from now on.
Although I think this is quite possible, I don't know how I would feel about Goku using UI so easy as he use Blue nowadays, I think it would become cheap.
Dbzfan94 wrote:I'm honestly getting really sick of these fodder characters getting blasted away and not getting eliminated. What purpose are they serving at this point? Early on in the arc people got knocked out from much less.
Exactly! Is like they want these guys to stay there to just knock it all in the last 5 minutes of the ToP for you know... Forced drama :problem:
JazzMazz wrote:The worst thing about this fight is, its not going to lead into anything. At the end of it, Goku's just going to go back to being tired and "vulnerable" like he 4 episodes ago. That means we're probably going to have to repeat this whole recover bullshit all over again.

This the basic narrative equivalent of the multiple incursions to the future in the sense one of those times probably could have been skipped. Instead of going to the future too many times, its instead Goku getting his stupid third wind.
No, I think the worst thing is all this stamina-fatigue circle In-Universe is something like 5 or 6 minutes.
I can buy that in a fictional piece of work, though I would have liked more emphasis placed on the fact that they're aren't at full steam like they were before.

My problem lies in the fact we are going through a narratively phase, which we are going to have to repeat.

User avatar
Draconic
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1961
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm
Location: Romania

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Draconic » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:40 am

Pretty underwhelming episode, but Ultra Instinct makes up for basically every issue I have with it, so I guess it wasn't a total waste of time. Besides UI, my other highlight is Kefla's transformation scene. It was done much better than I expected.
English is not my first language !

My breakdown of the new and old transformations. Hope to update it soon with many others!

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:40 am

Still waiting for Kafla to defuse like she should have the moment she started spamming energy attacks.

User avatar
perucho1990
I Live Here
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:04 pm

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by perucho1990 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:04 am

I dont understand why Yashima did the storyboard for episode 115, add also Kitano animation, did Toei forget how much of a failure episode 33 was when both men worked together that time?

And yes Yashima should never storyboard ever again, its not his strength.

The director was the same one from episode 93 and 99, so it wasnt really his fault.

Anyways Kalefla is done next week.

PerhapsTheOtherOne
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:07 am

Artorias wrote:And thus, Super ends it's streak of good episodes. Twas fun while it lasted I guess. Hopefully a new streak begins next week.
I'd have never guessed that there was a good streak at all based solely on the Kanzenshuu forums' most vocal reactions :lol:

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20301
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:13 am

Doctor. wrote:Still waiting for Kafla to defuse like she should have the moment she started spamming energy attacks.
I don't think Kafla should be defusing that soon. I mean, she is powerful, but that not that powerful.

User avatar
Xehanort
Newbie
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:34 am
Location: Post-apocalyptic Future
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Xehanort » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:16 am

I'm sorry, but this episode was absolute horses***.

I know discussions about power levels are frowned upon by many, myself included, but Kafla being able to knock SSBKK Songoku with one clean kick makes absolutely no sense. I know Songoku is supposed to be "tired" (which is also another load of crap) and that Potara fusion is a magnificent boost in power but we're talking about the fusion between two "nobodies" when compared to Songoku. So we have two saiyans, one of them JUST LEARNED SSJ2 a few episodes ago, that when fused together can whoop SSG's ass? C'mon! You could argue Kale's berserk, but we don't really know exactly how strong this thing is. Jiren seemed to knock it with way more ease than SSB Songoku, so...

I love Zen-Oh, I think he's an excellent adition to the DB lore and just feels like a true Toriyama character, but he's annoying me a lot in this arc. I get that them allowing whatever they think is "kewl" in the tournament is in character, but at the same time it takes a lot of legitimacy and suspense from it. So all U11 needed to do to beat every universe's ass in seconds was to fuse Jiren with Toppo (lol, wouldn't that be amazing xD) and unleash full force on every single warrior...meh :problem:

I will say this, though...Ultra Instinct came in a rather contrived way, but man I love it! I'm loving this form way more than I expected, I can't wait to see it in action again. And this will wake Jiren again...HYYYYPE :D

All in all, pretty bad episode with an awesome ending.
"I think it's only fair that I should warn you guys. You dont stand a chance against me.", Future Trunks

Tombstone1988
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:34 am

perucho1990 wrote:I dont understand why Yashima did the storyboard for episode 115, add also Kitano animation, did Toei forget how much of a failure episode 33 was when both men worked together that time?

And yes Yashima should never storyboard ever again, its not his strength.

The director was the same one from episode 93 and 99, so it wasnt really his fault.

Anyways Kalefla is done next week.
Wasn't episode 33 Goku vs. Botamo? If so, oh man, that really was a recipe for disaster. This was probably not the episode to try the Yashima/Kitano combo again.
Artorias wrote:The single biggest problem with this episode is that literally every single fight they cut away to was more exciting than the main event Goku vs. Kefla. And I think I speak for most of the fandom when I say that. When all is said and done, we will have spent FOUR EPISODES IN A ROW on this Goku vs. Kale/Caulifla/Kefla fight. FOUR WEEKS of this stuff. That would be excessive for a fight we actually deeply cared about, let alone this nonsense.
Agreed. When 30 seconds of Namekian action is more engaging than your main fight, something has gone wrong somewhere (storyboarding, as it seems to be in this instance).
JazzMazz wrote:The worst thing about this fight is, its not going to lead into anything. At the end of it, Goku's just going to go back to being tired and "vulnerable" like he 4 episodes ago. That means we're probably going to have to repeat this whole recover bullshit all over again.

This the basic narrative equivalent of the multiple incursions to the future in the sense one of those times probably could have been skipped. Instead of going to the future too many times, its instead Goku getting his stupid third wind.
Yeah, I feel they really screwed up the narrative structure of this part of the arc. I feel it would have worked better if it happened like:

1.) Hit sacrifices himself to freeze Jiren in place temporarily
2.) Various characters (Cabba, Vegeta, Gohan, etc.) have fights while Goku rests to regain his strength
3.) After a bunch of stuff with the others happens, Caulifla and Kale then challenge Goku

Would have made for a more interesting narrative and removed the repetition.
"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

-Adam from YourMovieSucksDOTorg
(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

User avatar
OverHeaven
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:02 pm
Location: SA

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:50 am

Can someone tell me what's the deal with these shitty introduction segments that started to appear since this mini-arc started? Like, is this supposed to hype us more for the episode or what? Not only they almost always show the most important stuff in the preview, but they also want to spoil you even when you're literally going to see these scenes in few minutes, just in case you somehow avoided the spoilers and the preview. Toei is full of shit as usual, though I would understand it more if it was a show that follows a manga.

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4659
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:03 pm

OverHeaven wrote:Can someone tell me what's the deal with these shitty introduction segments that started to appear since this mini-arc started? Like, is this supposed to hype us more for the episode or what? Not only they almost always show the most important stuff in the preview, but they also want to spoil you even when you're literally going to see these scenes in few minutes, just in case you somehow avoided the spoilers and the preview. Toei is full of shit as usual, though I would understand it more if it was a show that follows a manga.

Right? Who the hell was that announcer guy even supposed to be?

User avatar
FrostByte
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:14 am

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by FrostByte » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:24 pm

This episode was pretty good,but god damn that ending with Goku tapping into Ultra Instinct was so hype! The preview for the next episode looks really good and can't wait to see UI in action again.

User avatar
Spider-Man
Regular
Posts: 512
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:36 pm

Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Spider-Man » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:30 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote: Right? Who the hell was that announcer guy even supposed to be?
Is Kiyoshi Hikawa, the guy who sung limit break x survivor.
    As for the episode it was average, nothing spectacular with Goku vs Kefla and Gohan & Piccolo vs The namekians really annoyed the hell out of me,give them an episode already.
      Yay Katopesla didn't get eliminated by #17 I wanna see more of him and it cool to see Vegeta vs Toppo again.Overall this episode was average oh and UI continue to be awesome.

      Post Reply