Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by avasatu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:39 pm

Kaiosama wrote:Alright... Who wins? Base Vegito or SSJ Kefla? :lol:
In the manga, base Vegito should stomp fairly hard.

On another note, I'm quite glad the tone of this forum has shifted from pure negativity to mixed negativity and positivity, with those who don't like an episode providing respectful commentary on the objective reasons behind their dislikes.

It's quite refreshing, to say the least.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Simere » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:33 pm

avasatu wrote:In the manga, base Vegito should stomp fairly hard.

On another note, I'm quite glad the tone of this forum has shifted from pure negativity to mixed negativity and positivity, with those who don't like an episode providing respectful commentary on the objective reasons behind their dislikes.

It's quite refreshing, to say the least.
Subjective.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:12 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:As an aside, this episode is really funny because they try hard narratively to sell this as some super tense battle where Goku's once again pushed to his limits but boy is the writing and animation not there to support it. A lot of the issue is that Goku just freaking had a super tough battle where he was pushed past his limits so trying to do it again just feels forced.
It's not that bad compared to the"Unbelievable! So this is a fight between two Super Saiyan 2s." shitty line.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:26 pm

Ziegander wrote:There was some massive cognitive dissonance going for me this episode when they made SSB Goku out to be such a huge deal even though he's used it several times in the tournament either to take out trash or just because he felt like it (and wanted to go to a higher form and then sandbag a metric ton apparently), but now it's super cereal, guys, he's not holding back this time (even though he's also almost completely exhausted), we have to tell you that, guys, because it looks exactly the same as every other time he's gone Blue and those times nobody cared, but, guys, GUYS, THIS TIME, this time, guys, oh my gee, it's so powerful, you guys!

We have Berserker Kale stomp on SSB like 10 episodes ago or something, but Goku was holding back. But now, Goku is more exhausted than we've seen him since he got wrecked by Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, but now, he is apparently not holding back at all and fights evenly with an even stronger Controlled Berserk Kale using only his God form. Clearly both Kale and Caulifla are much weaker than we thought or Goku is much stronger than we thought, or both, but then we get Kefla and exhausted Goku (who is, apparently, using WAY more power than he did earlier in the tournament every other time he used Blue for no reason) goes Blue and kind of stalemates her (though now Kefla is sandbagging). Goku uses Kaioken (likely x2) and is stronger than her, but, because he's tired (I guess?) Kefla takes him out. Okay, here's what makes no sense to me. Why is everyone so hype for THIS usage of Goku Blue? Even Vegeta was excited. It makes no sense. Vegeta's fighting in Blue as he hypes Goku Blue! Vegeta's fighting a dude that Goku used SSBKK against! By all rights, Vegeta is fighting a character that is provably as strong if not stronger than Kefla, but nobody gives a shit about that. Hit is like 5 to 10 times stronger than Kefla, but nobody lost their minds about Hit! Make up your minds, Super writers! In-universe, there is no reason for the characters to react the way they are if Kefla is only as strong as Toppo if not weaker. When Goku holds back 90% of his power when he's not tired at all and loses because he's holding back, but then he gets serious when his back is against the wall and even though he's tired as shit he's able to throw a TON more power around than he has any other time in the tournament (with the exception of his fight with Jiren), but he still loses, that makes it very difficult for me to take the show seriously. So Goku loses because he's holding back, then he actually goes all out against someone, even achieves a new, more powerful form, he loses, then he's exhausted but goes all out with whatever power he has left, somehow it's more than the power he had when he was holding back earlier in the tournament, but don't worry, he still loses. If he weren't the only hope of defeating Jiren, I'd start to wonder why he's even in the tournament considering Gohan, Freeza, 17, or Vegeta could have handled every one of Goku's actual eliminations, as well as how poorly Goku's actually fought against any foes he didn't eliminate.
"Goku's tired or holding back" is just the new "he let his guard down again".

edit: lol I just tried typing (he let his guard down again) in Google's search and got few results from Dragon Ball.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:30 pm

OverHeaven wrote:
Ziegander wrote:There was some massive cognitive dissonance going for me this episode when they made SSB Goku out to be such a huge deal even though he's used it several times in the tournament either to take out trash or just because he felt like it (and wanted to go to a higher form and then sandbag a metric ton apparently), but now it's super cereal, guys, he's not holding back this time (even though he's also almost completely exhausted), we have to tell you that, guys, because it looks exactly the same as every other time he's gone Blue and those times nobody cared, but, guys, GUYS, THIS TIME, this time, guys, oh my gee, it's so powerful, you guys!

We have Berserker Kale stomp on SSB like 10 episodes ago or something, but Goku was holding back. But now, Goku is more exhausted than we've seen him since he got wrecked by Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, but now, he is apparently not holding back at all and fights evenly with an even stronger Controlled Berserk Kale using only his God form. Clearly both Kale and Caulifla are much weaker than we thought or Goku is much stronger than we thought, or both, but then we get Kefla and exhausted Goku (who is, apparently, using WAY more power than he did earlier in the tournament every other time he used Blue for no reason) goes Blue and kind of stalemates her (though now Kefla is sandbagging). Goku uses Kaioken (likely x2) and is stronger than her, but, because he's tired (I guess?) Kefla takes him out. Okay, here's what makes no sense to me. Why is everyone so hype for THIS usage of Goku Blue? Even Vegeta was excited. It makes no sense. Vegeta's fighting in Blue as he hypes Goku Blue! Vegeta's fighting a dude that Goku used SSBKK against! By all rights, Vegeta is fighting a character that is provably as strong if not stronger than Kefla, but nobody gives a shit about that. Hit is like 5 to 10 times stronger than Kefla, but nobody lost their minds about Hit! Make up your minds, Super writers! In-universe, there is no reason for the characters to react the way they are if Kefla is only as strong as Toppo if not weaker. When Goku holds back 90% of his power when he's not tired at all and loses because he's holding back, but then he gets serious when his back is against the wall and even though he's tired as shit he's able to throw a TON more power around than he has any other time in the tournament (with the exception of his fight with Jiren), but he still loses, that makes it very difficult for me to take the show seriously. So Goku loses because he's holding back, then he actually goes all out against someone, even achieves a new, more powerful form, he loses, then he's exhausted but goes all out with whatever power he has left, somehow it's more than the power he had when he was holding back earlier in the tournament, but don't worry, he still loses. If he weren't the only hope of defeating Jiren, I'd start to wonder why he's even in the tournament considering Gohan, Freeza, 17, or Vegeta could have handled every one of Goku's actual eliminations, as well as how poorly Goku's actually fought against any foes he didn't eliminate.
"Goku's tired or holding back" is just the new "he let his guard down again".
I know it's probably just because I'm in a really shitty mood IRL, but the "holding back" card Super keeps playing to try and explain away the literally constant inconsistencies between episodes or even minutes of the same episode is causing me to hate 90% of the fights Goku is involved in (the often mediocre to poor animation and/or choreography isn't helping either).
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:45 pm

People need to calm down. The episode was good.

Stop trying to justify the mindless hate by saying we don't know the multiplier of Kaioken or by mentally blocking the fact that Beerus said he can't even use Kaioken x one for very long or that Champa said Goku is too tired to hear Caulifla essentially meaning he can beat her at full strength. Its Kaioken x ONE. Stop pretnding. Goku always says how much he is using or its stated by someone else what level he's at.

I actually called him only being able to use 5% of his strength. People didn't wanna believe he was tired and act like there's something wrong with this or he shouldn't be able to use the strength he has. He's an alien god LOL notice also how Goku has 5 forms in total. 5% is a result you get by knowing that at full power he can use kaioken x20. If he can only use 1/20th of his full strength, it equals 5% and only allows him to use kaioken x1. And even then he ALMOST beat Kefla lol. He only needed Kaioken cause he wasn't at full strength. Not even close to it. He had to push himself. So, there's nothing wrong with a potara Kefla being able to beat down a tired goku with only 5% of his strength. There should be no issues here.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:24 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:People need to calm down. The episode was good.

Stop trying to justify the mindless hate by saying we don't know the multiplier of Kaioken or by mentally blocking the fact that Beerus said he can't even use Kaioken x one for very long or that Champa said Goku is too tired to hear Caulifla essentially meaning he can beat her at full strength. Its Kaioken x ONE. Stop pretnding. Goku always says how much he is using or its stated by someone else what level he's at.

I actually called him only being able to use 5% of his strength. People didn't wanna believe he was tired and act like there's something wrong with this or he shouldn't be able to use the strength he has. He's an alien god LOL notice also how Goku has 5 forms in total. 5% is a result you get by knowing that at full power he can use kaioken x20. If he can only use 1/20th of his full strength, it equals 5% and only allows him to use kaioken x1. And even then he ALMOST beat Kefla lol. He only needed Kaioken cause he wasn't at full strength. Not even close to it. He had to push himself. So, there's nothing wrong with a potara Kefla being able to beat down a tired goku with only 5% of his strength. There should be no issues here.
I'm pretty sure the reason most people are iffy/disliking this episode is not for power scaling reasons, but more-so for the very poor direction, choreography, music placement, and animation for an extremely important tournament fight.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:47 am

Asura wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:People need to calm down. The episode was good.

Stop trying to justify the mindless hate by saying we don't know the multiplier of Kaioken or by mentally blocking the fact that Beerus said he can't even use Kaioken x one for very long or that Champa said Goku is too tired to hear Caulifla essentially meaning he can beat her at full strength. Its Kaioken x ONE. Stop pretnding. Goku always says how much he is using or its stated by someone else what level he's at.

I actually called him only being able to use 5% of his strength. People didn't wanna believe he was tired and act like there's something wrong with this or he shouldn't be able to use the strength he has. He's an alien god LOL notice also how Goku has 5 forms in total. 5% is a result you get by knowing that at full power he can use kaioken x20. If he can only use 1/20th of his full strength, it equals 5% and only allows him to use kaioken x1. And even then he ALMOST beat Kefla lol. He only needed Kaioken cause he wasn't at full strength. Not even close to it. He had to push himself. So, there's nothing wrong with a potara Kefla being able to beat down a tired goku with only 5% of his strength. There should be no issues here.
I'm pretty sure the reason most people are iffy/disliking this episode is not for power scaling reasons, but more-so for the very poor direction, choreography, music placement, and animation for an extremely important tournament fight.
This. I actually see more people freaking out about people supposedly freaking out about powerscaling than people actually freaking out about powerscaling.

The reason we don't like it is because of the poor presentation for the fight itself on nearly all fronts.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:07 am

The fight itself was definitely the worst part of it, I however have been freaking out a little about power-scaling, but for the opposite reason. The episode proved that Kefla was way weaker than I thought she should be!
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:33 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:People need to calm down. The episode was good.

Stop trying to justify the mindless hate by saying we don't know the multiplier of Kaioken or by mentally blocking the fact that Beerus said he can't even use Kaioken x one for very long or that Champa said Goku is too tired to hear Caulifla essentially meaning he can beat her at full strength. Its Kaioken x ONE. Stop pretnding. Goku always says how much he is using or its stated by someone else what level he's at.

I actually called him only being able to use 5% of his strength. People didn't wanna believe he was tired and act like there's something wrong with this or he shouldn't be able to use the strength he has. He's an alien god LOL notice also how Goku has 5 forms in total. 5% is a result you get by knowing that at full power he can use kaioken x20. If he can only use 1/20th of his full strength, it equals 5% and only allows him to use kaioken x1. And even then he ALMOST beat Kefla lol. He only needed Kaioken cause he wasn't at full strength. Not even close to it. He had to push himself. So, there's nothing wrong with a potara Kefla being able to beat down a tired goku with only 5% of his strength. There should be no issues here.
The problem was not the power scaling but how bad the fight was. Vegeta vs Toppo along with Piccolo and Gohan vs Saonel and Pilina were more entertaining.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:50 am

Ziegander wrote:The fight itself was definitely the worst part of it, I however have been freaking out a little about power-scaling, but for the opposite reason. The episode proved that Kefla was way weaker than I thought she should be!
How is Kefla weak? She knocked down SSJBKK Goku and had him trigger UI again.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:58 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Ziegander wrote:The fight itself was definitely the worst part of it, I however have been freaking out a little about power-scaling, but for the opposite reason. The episode proved that Kefla was way weaker than I thought she should be!
How is Kefla weak? She knocked down SSJBKK Goku and had him trigger UI again.
Yeah, plus she was beating the crap out Goku in her base form when he was an SSG, a form that apparently caught the interest of Beerus(somehow, seriously why was Beerus interested in SSG again when he could have defeated him with one finger?).

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:38 am

JazzMazz wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
Ziegander wrote:The fight itself was definitely the worst part of it, I however have been freaking out a little about power-scaling, but for the opposite reason. The episode proved that Kefla was way weaker than I thought she should be!
How is Kefla weak? She knocked down SSJBKK Goku and had him trigger UI again.
Yeah, plus she was beating the crap out Goku in her base form when he was an SSG, a form that apparently caught the interest of Beerus(somehow, seriously why was Beerus interested in SSG again when he could have defeated him with one finger?).
Considering Goku wasn't fighting anywhere near 100%, it's not really all the impressive. There every chance that ig Goku was fighting at 100%, he would have kicked Kafla's ass as either a SSJB or SSJB Kaioken.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:44 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Ziegander wrote:The fight itself was definitely the worst part of it, I however have been freaking out a little about power-scaling, but for the opposite reason. The episode proved that Kefla was way weaker than I thought she should be!
How is Kefla weak? She knocked down SSJBKK Goku and had him trigger UI again.
She's fighting a 5% powered up Goku. she isn't that impressive compared to him. Even Champa says she only has a chance cause this dude is tired as fuck.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Olympian » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:49 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:People need to calm down. The episode was good.

Stop trying to justify the mindless hate by saying we don't know the multiplier of Kaioken or by mentally blocking the fact that Beerus said he can't even use Kaioken x one for very long or that Champa said Goku is too tired to hear Caulifla essentially meaning he can beat her at full strength. Its Kaioken x ONE. Stop pretnding. Goku always says how much he is using or its stated by someone else what level he's at.
And to those that felt the episodes have been boring for other reasons than power scalling, because I could care less about it..?

Outside new characters and new added mythos which I can always appreciate and UL which I agree like everyone, "looks cool", the episodes have been lackluster because the direction and treatment of characters have been sucky.
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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:52 am

Olympian wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:People need to calm down. The episode was good.

Stop trying to justify the mindless hate by saying we don't know the multiplier of Kaioken or by mentally blocking the fact that Beerus said he can't even use Kaioken x one for very long or that Champa said Goku is too tired to hear Caulifla essentially meaning he can beat her at full strength. Its Kaioken x ONE. Stop pretnding. Goku always says how much he is using or its stated by someone else what level he's at.
And to those that felt the episodes have been boring for other reasons than power scalling, because I could care less about it..?

Outside new characters and new added mythos which I can always appreciate and UL which I agree like everyone, "looks cool", the episodes have been lackluster because the direction and treatment of characters have been sucky.
Just don't see how the treatment is bad in this ep? 18 didn't want 17 to help. yeah whatever. Not that big of a deal. it's not character assassination or anything. it's as forgivable as Krillin being "impressed" by two SSJ2's fighting when he's seen something crazier a few minutes ago.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:06 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:
Olympian wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:People need to calm down. The episode was good.

Stop trying to justify the mindless hate by saying we don't know the multiplier of Kaioken or by mentally blocking the fact that Beerus said he can't even use Kaioken x one for very long or that Champa said Goku is too tired to hear Caulifla essentially meaning he can beat her at full strength. Its Kaioken x ONE. Stop pretnding. Goku always says how much he is using or its stated by someone else what level he's at.
And to those that felt the episodes have been boring for other reasons than power scalling, because I could care less about it..?

Outside new characters and new added mythos which I can always appreciate and UL which I agree like everyone, "looks cool", the episodes have been lackluster because the direction and treatment of characters have been sucky.
Just don't see how the treatment is bad in this ep? 18 didn't want 17 to help. yeah whatever. Not that big of a deal. it's not character assassination or anything. it's as forgivable as Krillin being "impressed" by two SSJ2's fighting when he's seen something crazier a few minutes ago.
The Android scene was only used to make 17 look good and it was not needed at all.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:13 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:
Olympian wrote: And to those that felt the episodes have been boring for other reasons than power scalling, because I could care less about it..?

Outside new characters and new added mythos which I can always appreciate and UL which I agree like everyone, "looks cool", the episodes have been lackluster because the direction and treatment of characters have been sucky.
Just don't see how the treatment is bad in this ep? 18 didn't want 17 to help. yeah whatever. Not that big of a deal. it's not character assassination or anything. it's as forgivable as Krillin being "impressed" by two SSJ2's fighting when he's seen something crazier a few minutes ago.
The Android scene was only used to make 17 look good and it was not needed at all.
And? Not like we haven't had scenes in the tournament that made 18 look good. Let's not pretend it was more than it was. 17 looked cool. 18 didn't. It's not a big deal. there's plenty of eps where everyone, to an extent, didn't look good.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:
Just don't see how the treatment is bad in this ep? 18 didn't want 17 to help. yeah whatever. Not that big of a deal. it's not character assassination or anything. it's as forgivable as Krillin being "impressed" by two SSJ2's fighting when he's seen something crazier a few minutes ago.
The Android scene was only used to make 17 look good and it was not needed at all.
And? Not like we haven't had scenes in the tournament that made 18 look good. Let's not pretend it was more than it was. 17 looked cool. 18 didn't. It's not a big deal. there's plenty of eps where everyone, to an extent, didn't look good.
Difference is this scene did done nothing to progress the tournament. These stupid scenes also get remembered by fans and they use it to decide how well every character was 'treated' and contributes to the endless discussion about who Toei and Toriyama care about.

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Re: Super Episode 115 (12 November 2017)

Post by Drellz26 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:53 am

There’s no way I’m seeing complaints about Goku being stronger than Kefla...WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT!?

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