Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:18 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
mfwlegend3 wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:I guess everyone who was so sure that Caulifla and/or Kale would be one of the last remaining are pretty quiet right now.
Who REALLY thought they would make it out of that fight without being eliminated? Not only were they fighting UI Goku, but they also had Freeza spectating the fight while waiting for his turn. Their fates were sealed.
I mean loooong before the UI Goku VS Kefla was even announced.

Around ep100 people kept saying Cauli and/or Kale would be in the top 10. I'm not going through thousands of posts but I saw it quite a few times.
If you look back on all the "predict the final 10 fighters" threads we've had, nearly everyone predicted Universe 6 fighters. If not Kale and Caulifla, then Hit or Cabba or even Frost.

It's kind of baffling that Universe 6 might not even make the top 20 now. Like at this point Universe 3 has a better chance of making the top 10. While that's unexpected, it highlights the imbalance in how the other Universes have been portrayed.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:54 pm

I think the writers missed the mark with Kafla's arrogant personality. The only reason it was ever endearing and entertaining for Vegetto was because he was always in control and backed up his shit talk with his actions. But that doesn't work when the character is constantly getting owned and put in their place. The shit talk ceases to be fun, and just starts to be eye-roll inducing, because you're just waiting for Goku to smack them in the face. Then they stand back up, throw some more vapid bravado lines, and proceed to get rekt again. Rinse and repeat until she was gone. I call this the Vegeta Cell saga effect. You actively root against someone you're seemingly supposed to be enjoying.

They needed to have a moment where she realized she was outclassed and took things more seriously. But instead she just became absolutely insufferable. I genuinely don't understand what type of person you have to be to not be incredibly annoyed with this character.

Or maybe that's what the writers were going for. Make her so annoying, so painstakingly unbearable, that when she gets beam grind blasted to the face point blank, the audience has a moment of sweet cathartic release.

Any charges of sexism and the like will be promptly ignored. I don't have time for that bs. It's just used as obfuscation for actual discussion.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Noah » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:03 pm

With Caulifla and Kale eliminated, there's only Ribrianne left and when she's K.O, I'll be more excited with this tournament again.
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:06 pm

JazzMazz wrote: However, I do think this episode highlights my biggest problem with this fight, which really has less to with the fight itself, and more to do with where the fight is narratively. Though this is the second longest fight in the show, it doesn't really lead onto anything particularly important narrative wise, it the fight hasn't greatly effected the tournament in a noteable manner besides knocking bringing Universe 6 closer to destruction.
Kafla/Caulifla and Kale were major players in the tournament. I'd say them getting eliminated is pretty damn narratively significant. I'd actually say that this might have the been the single most consequential episode of this whole tournament next to the one where Hit got knocked out.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by precita » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:18 pm

I don't understand why people keep saying, "Now we can get on with the tournament."

What does that even mean? The rest of the fighters don't look too significant besides a few and there's still a lot of obvious fodder and jobber characters left who won't amount to anything.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:58 pm

Artorias wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: However, I do think this episode highlights my biggest problem with this fight, which really has less to with the fight itself, and more to do with where the fight is narratively. Though this is the second longest fight in the show, it doesn't really lead onto anything particularly important narrative wise, it the fight hasn't greatly effected the tournament in a noteable manner besides knocking bringing Universe 6 closer to destruction.
Kafla/Caulifla and Kale were major players in the tournament. I'd say them getting eliminated is pretty damn narratively significant. I'd actually say that this might have the been the single most consequential episode of this whole tournament next to the one where Hit got knocked out.
Again, how so?

How have their eliminations changed the tournament?

I would say that Kale's first powerup and Universe 2's first bout had more of an impact on the tournament than their elimination.

Don't get me wrong, their elimination should have had a lot of narrative, it would have been a good way to lead into the final act of the tournament and battle with Jiren, as the stakes would only continue escalating from that fight. However, thats not the case. The only major thing that was different from before was that Universe 6 is down 2 more fighters and Jiren is back to standing around and doing nothing.

Goku is still weak.

Vegeta is still cocky about obtaining the form.

Freeza is still cocky about using Goku like he was in 111.

and everyone else is kind of just there.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:26 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Artorias wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: However, I do think this episode highlights my biggest problem with this fight, which really has less to with the fight itself, and more to do with where the fight is narratively. Though this is the second longest fight in the show, it doesn't really lead onto anything particularly important narrative wise, it the fight hasn't greatly effected the tournament in a noteable manner besides knocking bringing Universe 6 closer to destruction.
Kafla/Caulifla and Kale were major players in the tournament. I'd say them getting eliminated is pretty damn narratively significant. I'd actually say that this might have the been the single most consequential episode of this whole tournament next to the one where Hit got knocked out.
Again, how so?

How have their eliminations changed the tournament?

I would say that Kale's first powerup and Universe 2's first bout had more of an impact on the tournament than their elimination.

Don't get me wrong, their elimination should have had a lot of narrative, it would have been a good way to lead into the final act of the tournament and battle with Jiren, as the stakes would only continue escalating from that fight. However, thats not the case. The only major thing that was different from before was that Universe 6 is down 2 more fighters and Jiren is back to standing around and doing nothing.

Goku is still weak.

Vegeta is still cocky about obtaining the form.

Freeza is still cocky about using Goku like he was in 111.

and everyone else is kind of just there.
I think the fact that a major player is now out of the tournament is inherently a fundamental change to said tournament. I don't really see what you mean about how nothing has changed. Eliminating someone who could possibly win (in theory, obviously we all know Toei wouldn't actually make her win) seems fairly significant. I don't know how else you would really further the narrative in a tournament other than having the major players get knocked out (a flaw of the tournament structured arc, but I digress).

The progression is all kinds of fucked up, no doubt, but even still, I see this as quite possibly the only actually consequential episode so far other than the episodes where universes are erased and Hit's elimination. Even the special really didn't amount to much compared to this.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:40 pm

Artorias wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Kafla/Caulifla and Kale were major players in the tournament. I'd say them getting eliminated is pretty damn narratively significant. I'd actually say that this might have the been the single most consequential episode of this whole tournament next to the one where Hit got knocked out.
Again, how so?

How have their eliminations changed the tournament?

I would say that Kale's first powerup and Universe 2's first bout had more of an impact on the tournament than their elimination.

Don't get me wrong, their elimination should have had a lot of narrative, it would have been a good way to lead into the final act of the tournament and battle with Jiren, as the stakes would only continue escalating from that fight. However, thats not the case. The only major thing that was different from before was that Universe 6 is down 2 more fighters and Jiren is back to standing around and doing nothing.

Goku is still weak.

Vegeta is still cocky about obtaining the form.

Freeza is still cocky about using Goku like he was in 111.

and everyone else is kind of just there.
I think the fact that a major player is now out of the tournament is inherently a fundamental change to said tournament. I don't really see what you mean about how nothing has changed. Eliminating someone who could possibly win (in theory, obviously we all know Toei wouldn't actually make her win) seems fairly significant. I don't know how else you would really further the narrative in a tournament other than having the major players get knocked out (a flaw of the tournament structured arc, but I digress).

The progression is all kinds of fucked up, no doubt, but even still, I see this as quite possibly the only actually consequential episode so far other than the episodes where universes are erased and Hit's elimination. Even the special really didn't amount to much compared to this.
Narratively, everyone is a competitor with a chance to win.

What I'm saying this is a big fight, the biggest fight of the tournament, but for such a big fight, it looks likes its going to have very little impact on the flow of the narrative. It feels a little self-contained from the rest of the tournament, however, it really hasn't changed the playing field all that much and narratively from what it was before the fight, it has really lead onto much considering the huge amount of time devoted to the fight.

The Jiren fight had two important consequences narratively.
-Goku discovering a new power and also being tired out, which lead to him being targetted by other universes.
-Hits defeat to Jiren, which lead to universe 6 being targetted as was demonstrated in 112.

This fights consequences are:
-Goku's still low on stamina and is still being targetted by other universes.
-Universe 6 is on its final legs.

The first of those things was already a consequence of the previous big battle, and the second didn't need to have 4 episodes devoted to eliminating 2 competitors.

My problem with the fight is less with the fight itself, but with the placement of the fight.

This would have been a great way to lead into the final act of the tournament, maybe they could have saved it for the last 11 minutes and have it end at the last five, so you could have your big Goku vs Jiren fight, which would further up the tensions and stakes.

Instead we've gone from an excitement high in episode 116, to a fairly rudimentary episode with far less scope or scale to it, which kind of kills any of the excitement from this episode.

Hell, I would have preferred if all sides in the tournament took an episode to recover after such a devasting fight, that would be better than just continuing having these miny boss fights one episode after another, because they do become a bit of a drag. At the very least a relaxation episode of sorts would allow both sides to recuperate and reflect on their next course of action after such a massive fight.

Generally, I'm just saying the handling could have been much better. I don't have a problem with the fight itself, I just don't feel like it really lead onto anything important narratively and due to that ends up feeling a little bit like a waste of time.

EDIT: Sorry for my incoherent rambling.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Artorias » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:53 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Artorias wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Again, how so?

How have their eliminations changed the tournament?

I would say that Kale's first powerup and Universe 2's first bout had more of an impact on the tournament than their elimination.

Don't get me wrong, their elimination should have had a lot of narrative, it would have been a good way to lead into the final act of the tournament and battle with Jiren, as the stakes would only continue escalating from that fight. However, thats not the case. The only major thing that was different from before was that Universe 6 is down 2 more fighters and Jiren is back to standing around and doing nothing.

Goku is still weak.

Vegeta is still cocky about obtaining the form.

Freeza is still cocky about using Goku like he was in 111.

and everyone else is kind of just there.
I think the fact that a major player is now out of the tournament is inherently a fundamental change to said tournament. I don't really see what you mean about how nothing has changed. Eliminating someone who could possibly win (in theory, obviously we all know Toei wouldn't actually make her win) seems fairly significant. I don't know how else you would really further the narrative in a tournament other than having the major players get knocked out (a flaw of the tournament structured arc, but I digress).

The progression is all kinds of fucked up, no doubt, but even still, I see this as quite possibly the only actually consequential episode so far other than the episodes where universes are erased and Hit's elimination. Even the special really didn't amount to much compared to this.
Narratively, everyone is a competitor with a chance to win.

What I'm saying this is a big fight, the biggest fight of the tournament, but for such a big fight, it looks likes its going to have very little impact on the flow of the narrative. It feels a little self-contained from the rest of the tournament, however, it really hasn't changed the playing field all that much and narratively from what it was before the fight, it has really lead onto much considering the huge amount of time devoted to the fight.

The Jiren fight had two important consequences narratively.
-Goku discovering a new power and also being tired out, which lead to him being targetted by other universes.
-Hits defeat to Jiren, which lead to universe 6 being targetted as was demonstrated in 112.

This fights consequences are:
-Goku's still low on stamina and is still being targetted by other universes.
-Universe 6 is on its final legs.

The first of those things was already a consequence of the previous big battle, and the second didn't need to have 4 episodes devoted to eliminating 2 competitors.

My problem with the fight is less with the fight itself, but with the placement of the fight.

This would have been a great way to lead into the final act of the tournament, maybe they could have saved it for the last 11 minutes and have it end at the last five, so you could have your big Goku vs Jiren fight, which would further up the tensions and stakes.

Instead we've gone from an excitement high in episode 116, to a fairly rudimentary episode with far less scope or scale to it, which kind of kills any of the excitement from this episode.

Hell, I would have preferred if all sides in the tournament took an episode to recover after such a devasting fight, that would be better than just continuing having these miny boss fights one episode after another, because they do become a bit of a drag. At the very least a relaxation episode of sorts would allow both sides to recuperate and reflect on their next course of action after such a massive fight.

Generally, I'm just saying the handling could have been much better. I don't have a problem with the fight itself, I just don't feel like it really lead onto anything important narratively and due to that ends up feeling a little bit like a waste of time.

EDIT: Sorry for my incoherent rambling.
Okay, I see what you're saying now. I'm inclined to agree. I've also always said that the progression in this arc is really just f'd. It's like there's a bunch of mini-climaxes in the middle of the story, rather than a slow build to a true climax.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:57 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:That point blank range Kamehameha should've done more damage, just saiyan.

The one against Cell blew off his entire upper body.
Honestly I'm surprised they didnt get killed. Big complaint about Super is that there's barely any battle damage
Yeah, the Kamehameha was too much for kefla to handle, when they defused mid way and individually took the full force of the Kamehameha, they should have been vaporized on the spot, not like Goku can change a Kamehamehas power in the front when he has already let it go..
But here Cauliflowa gets up seconds later and begins her screeching like she was tricked into falling off or something..
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Dbzk1999 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:11 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:That point blank range Kamehameha should've done more damage, just saiyan.

The one against Cell blew off his entire upper body.
Honestly I'm surprised they didnt get killed. Big complaint about Super is that there's barely any battle damage
Yeah, the Kamehameha was too much for kefla to handle, when they defused mid way and individually took the full force of the Kamehameha, they should have been vaporized on the spot, not like Goku can change a Kamehamehas power in the front when he has already let it go..
But here Cauliflowa gets up seconds later and begins her screeching like she was tricked into falling off or something..

They defused the second before they were eliminated. They didn't take damage from the Kamahameha individually
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:16 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Honestly I'm surprised they didnt get killed. Big complaint about Super is that there's barely any battle damage
Yeah, the Kamehameha was too much for kefla to handle, when they defused mid way and individually took the full force of the Kamehameha, they should have been vaporized on the spot, not like Goku can change a Kamehamehas power in the front when he has already let it go..
But here Cauliflowa gets up seconds later and begins her screeching like she was tricked into falling off or something..

They defused the second before they were eliminated. They didn't take damage from the Kamahameha individually
I swear I saw them getting their potara broken while in the Kamehameha and defusing immediately, cue, they are still in the Kamehameha, then being completely fine like she is the shit and getting back to her usual business like nothing happened..

I might be wrong, I don't care enough to rewach that garbage so I will leave it at that..
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by KingKaash » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:32 am

I watched Episode 113-116 in a row and I'll give my total summary here.

First, this is my personal reasoning for the power levels and I don't care if anyone disagrees. Controlled Berserk SSJ Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla overwhelm SSJ2 Goku which makes sense. This causes Goku to go into SSJG. SSJG Goku badly injures SSJ2 Caulifla because of course an SSJ2 can't hang with an SSJG. But Controlled Berserk SSJ Kale is not really hurt by any of SSJG Goku's attacks. This makes sense because when Kale went Berserk SSJ for the first time then she was able to take on a Kamehameha from SSJB Goku. Goku doesn't go SSJB against the two Saiyan girls right away because he still hasn't fully regained his stamina. Then the Saiyan girls fuse to become base Kefla. I know fusions are extremely strong so it makes sense for Goku by himself to lose to a fusion even as SSJG. Goku goes a step above to SSJB and Kefla follows to go a step above to SSJ. At this point, SSJ Kefla is still ahead. Goku then goes KKSSJB and still loses to SSJ Kefla. My only reasoning for this is because SSJB Goku lost to Berserk SSJ Kale so when you consider that Berserk power being fused with the SSJ2 power of Caulifla then it makes sense for Kefla to have an edge over a lowered stamina Goku.

Basically (Berserk SSJ Kale power + SSJ2 Caulfila) via Potara Fusion > (low stamina SSJB Goku + KK). So for Kefla to knockout KKSSJB Goku makes sense.

Then from there UI Goku taking out SSJ2 Kefla makes sense because it doesn't matter how much power you have if you can't hit a UI user.

Ultimately it's very hard to gauge Kefla's power level because we don't know how strong Kale's Berserk SSJ or Controlled Berserk SSJ truly is in comparison to Goku's forms. So for me it was hard to buy in to Kefla pushing Goku that far until I really sat down and thought about it. I am glad Goku was pushed to UI because I was wondering who would do it.

I liked the idea of fusing the Saiyan girls into Kefla but she just didn't create the tension for me that Jiren vs Goku did. I'm just very mixed about the whole Kefla part of the ToP.
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Whatever » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:54 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote: Yeah, the Kamehameha was too much for kefla to handle, when they defused mid way and individually took the full force of the Kamehameha, they should have been vaporized on the spot, not like Goku can change a Kamehamehas power in the front when he has already let it go..
But here Cauliflowa gets up seconds later and begins her screeching like she was tricked into falling off or something..

They defused the second before they were eliminated. They didn't take damage from the Kamahameha individually
I swear I saw them getting their potara broken while in the Kamehameha and defusing immediately, cue, they are still in the Kamehameha, then being completely fine like she is the shit and getting back to her usual business like nothing happened..

I might be wrong, I don't care enough to rewach that garbage so I will leave it at that..
She used all of her energy in her last attack,the peanut gallery even says so.
The portara were broken while in the Kamehameha but that was just symbolism,they defused because they were out of energy.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:39 am

One thing that pissed me off with all of this: Kefla didn't eliminate anyone with her omnidirectional lasers.

If shes so pissed off AND OP I would have loved for her to take the numbers down a bit. Nobody major, just the scrubs or a few of Universe 2's remainders. Maybe some of the mechs of the professor

but no, nobody

despite having the power to destroy the stage.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Noah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:22 am

Unfortunately this tournament likes to maintain its disposable characters.
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:56 am

Noah wrote:Unfortunately this tournament likes to maintain its disposable characters.
which constitutes pretty much everyone whose not universe 6, 7 and 11 at this point

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:23 pm

mahakaishin1991 wrote:One thing that pissed me off with all of this: Kefla didn't eliminate anyone with her omnidirectional lasers.

If shes so pissed off AND OP I would have loved for her to take the numbers down a bit. Nobody major, just the scrubs or a few of Universe 2's remainders. Maybe some of the mechs of the professor

but no, nobody

despite having the power to destroy the stage.

K DEN
If she hit anyone they'd die. That seemed to be what was said.
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by HeroR » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:32 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Artorias wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Again, how so?

How have their eliminations changed the tournament?

I would say that Kale's first powerup and Universe 2's first bout had more of an impact on the tournament than their elimination.

Don't get me wrong, their elimination should have had a lot of narrative, it would have been a good way to lead into the final act of the tournament and battle with Jiren, as the stakes would only continue escalating from that fight. However, thats not the case. The only major thing that was different from before was that Universe 6 is down 2 more fighters and Jiren is back to standing around and doing nothing.

Goku is still weak.

Vegeta is still cocky about obtaining the form.

Freeza is still cocky about using Goku like he was in 111.

and everyone else is kind of just there.
I think the fact that a major player is now out of the tournament is inherently a fundamental change to said tournament. I don't really see what you mean about how nothing has changed. Eliminating someone who could possibly win (in theory, obviously we all know Toei wouldn't actually make her win) seems fairly significant. I don't know how else you would really further the narrative in a tournament other than having the major players get knocked out (a flaw of the tournament structured arc, but I digress).

The progression is all kinds of fucked up, no doubt, but even still, I see this as quite possibly the only actually consequential episode so far other than the episodes where universes are erased and Hit's elimination. Even the special really didn't amount to much compared to this.
Narratively, everyone is a competitor with a chance to win.

What I'm saying this is a big fight, the biggest fight of the tournament, but for such a big fight, it looks likes its going to have very little impact on the flow of the narrative. It feels a little self-contained from the rest of the tournament, however, it really hasn't changed the playing field all that much and narratively from what it was before the fight, it has really lead onto much considering the huge amount of time devoted to the fight.

The Jiren fight had two important consequences narratively.
-Goku discovering a new power and also being tired out, which lead to him being targetted by other universes.
-Hits defeat to Jiren, which lead to universe 6 being targetted as was demonstrated in 112.

This fights consequences are:
-Goku's still low on stamina and is still being targetted by other universes.
-Universe 6 is on its final legs.

The first of those things was already a consequence of the previous big battle, and the second didn't need to have 4 episodes devoted to eliminating 2 competitors.

My problem with the fight is less with the fight itself, but with the placement of the fight.

This would have been a great way to lead into the final act of the tournament, maybe they could have saved it for the last 11 minutes and have it end at the last five, so you could have your big Goku vs Jiren fight, which would further up the tensions and stakes.

Instead we've gone from an excitement high in episode 116, to a fairly rudimentary episode with far less scope or scale to it, which kind of kills any of the excitement from this episode.

Hell, I would have preferred if all sides in the tournament took an episode to recover after such a devasting fight, that would be better than just continuing having these miny boss fights one episode after another, because they do become a bit of a drag. At the very least a relaxation episode of sorts would allow both sides to recuperate and reflect on their next course of action after such a massive fight.

Generally, I'm just saying the handling could have been much better. I don't have a problem with the fight itself, I just don't feel like it really lead onto anything important narratively and due to that ends up feeling a little bit like a waste of time.

EDIT: Sorry for my incoherent rambling.
You’re forgetting the fight show a big weakness in UI. Namely, Goku can’t attack in it and it makes his attacks weaker than they should. And Goku is far more conscious than the first time.

These elements wouldn’t work in a Jiren vs. Goku round 2.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by gofishus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:56 pm

Too bad looks like Ribrianne is here to stay. She gets another transformation next episode. Who would have thought that Caulifla, Kale and Hit would be out before her?? :|

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