Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Orb
Newbie
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:21 am

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Orb » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:07 pm

Nobody is attributing this EVERYONE. I flat out said in my first post that I can understand some people that don't like the character I'm mainly responding to A reason I have seen come up over and over that I (and others) feel is problematic. I'm saying that it is common enough to be seen in different places. In the internet, the loudest voices have a impact on the rest. It is a problem that exists and where we can simply just critique in a more civil manner.

Swifticuffs
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Swifticuffs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:08 pm

Orb wrote:Nobody is attributing this EVERYONE. I flat out said in my first post that I can understand some people that don't like the character I'm mainly responding to A reason I have seen come up over and over that I (and others) feel is problematic. I'm saying that it is common enough to be seen in different places. In the internet, the loudest voices have a impact on the rest. It is a problem that exists and where we can simply just critique in a more civil manner.
Pretty sure you and I, as well as Asura, are having a pretty logical argument and trying to find middle ground based on factual evidence. There's one person who isn't, however. You can't just scream and yell your opinion without properly supporting it. That comes in the form of hard evidence.

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Asura wrote:
Ziegander wrote:You're hilarious. YouTube and reddit are vastly more enormous communities than this website, but because there's no sexist comments made against the female characters on this site (and there still is, just not nearly as many or as transparently), then there simply is no widespread sexism in the overall Dragonball community? That's the position it sounds like you're arguing. And that anyone claiming there is widespread sexism in the DB community is a liar. Hilarious.
They're so much more vastly enormous yet you can't even seem to find any widespread examples of what you're claiming. So yes, until you're able to actually prove that there's a large, considerable amount of people who are calling them whores and sluts, you're a liar.
You seriously want me to go sift through the internet for you and post examples? How many discrete links and quotes do I need to provide for you to actually take the idea seriously? Don't bother answering, because the answer is obviously something like millions. Somehow you've never seen it. Or only ever seen a couple assholes here and there. So, I say I have seen huge quantities of sexism in the DB community on YouTube and reddit, but I'm a liar. You say you haven't seen much of it, if at all, but you're the righteous warrior fighting for the side of, um, I'm not even sure, everything being totally fine and wholesome? Kay.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

User avatar
mfwlegend3
Regular
Posts: 633
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:00 am

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by mfwlegend3 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:11 pm

Ziegander wrote:Do people really not understand the inherent sexism in calling Caulifla, Kale, or Brianne whores.
The only time I see such remarks made towards these characters is when I'm on 4chan, but a majority of the time it's just baiting shitposts. Aside from that, I've never seen anything like that. YouTube comments are cesspools in themselves, anyways.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:14 pm

Orb wrote:Nobody is attributing this EVERYONE. I flat out said in my first post that I can understand some people that don't like the character I'm mainly responding to A reason I have seen come up over and over that I (and others) feel is problematic. I'm saying that it is common enough to be seen in different places. In the internet, the loudest voices have a impact on the rest. It is a problem that exists and where we can simply just critique in a more civil manner.
It's not a problem that exists. It would be a problem that exists if there was a considerable amount of people saying these things. There are jackasses in every community, and they're always the vast minority. Until they become a sizeable force, none of their complaints should be taken as problems that the entire community is plagued or associated with. When you say it's a problem, that means you're implying it's a problem with the entire community as in there's so many people saying it that it drags the rest of the community down with it.
Ziegander wrote:
Asura wrote:
Ziegander wrote:You're hilarious. YouTube and reddit are vastly more enormous communities than this website, but because there's no sexist comments made against the female characters on this site (and there still is, just not nearly as many or as transparently), then there simply is no widespread sexism in the overall Dragonball community? That's the position it sounds like you're arguing. And that anyone claiming there is widespread sexism in the DB community is a liar. Hilarious.
They're so much more vastly enormous yet you can't even seem to find any widespread examples of what you're claiming. So yes, until you're able to actually prove that there's a large, considerable amount of people who are calling them whores and sluts, you're a liar.
You seriously want me to go sift through the internet for you and post examples? How many discrete links and quotes do I need to provide for you to actually take the idea seriously? Don't bother answering, because the answer is obviously something like millions. Somehow you've never seen it. Or only ever seen a couple assholes here and there. So, I say I have seen huge quantities of sexism in the DB community on YouTube and reddit, but I'm a liar. You say you haven't seen much of it, if at all, but you're the righteous warrior fighting for the side of, um, I'm not even sure, everything being totally fine and wholesome? Kay.
I'm just asking you to find a widespread example. If it's as common as you say it is, surely it shouldn't be an issue to find a single comment on reddit that calls one of them (or all of them) a slut or a whore with even 1k upvotes, right? 1k is quite a sizeable amount of upvotes for any reddit post, so if you can find a comment that's even anywhere near those numbers I'll take your claims more seriously.

Swifticuffs
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Swifticuffs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:15 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Asura wrote:
Ziegander wrote:You're hilarious. YouTube and reddit are vastly more enormous communities than this website, but because there's no sexist comments made against the female characters on this site (and there still is, just not nearly as many or as transparently), then there simply is no widespread sexism in the overall Dragonball community? That's the position it sounds like you're arguing. And that anyone claiming there is widespread sexism in the DB community is a liar. Hilarious.
They're so much more vastly enormous yet you can't even seem to find any widespread examples of what you're claiming. So yes, until you're able to actually prove that there's a large, considerable amount of people who are calling them whores and sluts, you're a liar.
You seriously want me to go sift through the internet for you and post examples? How many discrete links and quotes do I need to provide for you to actually take the idea seriously? Don't bother answering, because the answer is obviously something like millions. Somehow you've never seen it. Or only ever seen a couple assholes here and there. So, I say I have seen huge quantities of sexism in the DB community on YouTube and reddit, but I'm a liar. You say you haven't seen much of it, if at all, but you're the righteous warrior fighting for the side of, um, I'm not even sure, everything being totally fine and wholesome? Kay.
He's fighting labeling. Something that's only OK when it's of a leftist mindset, clearly. Label us all because you personally have encountered X number of asshats on the net who legit could be only a handful of people making alternate accounts just to push their comments and troll like nuts.

Sexism exists, we get it. To say it is widespread in dragonball is nuts to me... and I've seen cesspools like Youtube. A few comments =!= the majority of the community automatically disliking the characters just because they're female. Stop. You know the ironic part too? You're the one trying to fight for awareness, but all you're doing is dividing. Reminds me a lot of modern day politics.

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:18 pm

Asura wrote:I'm just asking you to find a widespread example. If it's as common as you say it is, surely it shouldn't be an issue to find a single comment on reddit that calls one of them (or all of them) a slut or a whore with even 1k upvotes, right? 1k is quite a sizeable amount of upvotes for any reddit post, so if you can find a comment that's even anywhere near those numbers I'll take your claims more seriously.
There are very few posts about anything that get 1k upvotes on reddit. If you honestly think that's some kind of valid metric for determining anything about anything, I don't know what to tell you.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

Swifticuffs
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Swifticuffs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:22 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Asura wrote:I'm just asking you to find a widespread example. If it's as common as you say it is, surely it shouldn't be an issue to find a single comment on reddit that calls one of them (or all of them) a slut or a whore with even 1k upvotes, right? 1k is quite a sizeable amount of upvotes for any reddit post, so if you can find a comment that's even anywhere near those numbers I'll take your claims more seriously.
There are very few posts about anything that get 1k upvotes on reddit. If you honestly think that's some kind of valid metric for determining anything about anything, I don't know what to tell you.
Then what is, tell us? How many have you seen that makes you believe it is widespread? Widespread to me means 50% of the fandom is sexist. I'd love to know how many internet posts, comments on said posts, and real life conversations you've had that allow you to make a generalization like this? Or is just your political stance and you're looking for sexism everywhere to go "see!! Told you so!!"

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:24 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Asura wrote:I'm just asking you to find a widespread example. If it's as common as you say it is, surely it shouldn't be an issue to find a single comment on reddit that calls one of them (or all of them) a slut or a whore with even 1k upvotes, right? 1k is quite a sizeable amount of upvotes for any reddit post, so if you can find a comment that's even anywhere near those numbers I'll take your claims more seriously.
There are very few posts about anything that get 1k upvotes on reddit. If you honestly think that's some kind of valid metric for determining anything about anything, I don't know what to tell you.
You must not visit Reddit very often then, since there are plenty of times a post gets more than 1k upvotes on reddit. In fact, just on the Episode 117 reaction thread alone there's a bunch of posts that are well over 500-600, and that's just one thread. I didn't say it has to be exactly 1k I said near 1k, 600 is sizeable enough too so even if you can find a comment with 500-600 people saying that I'll take your claims to be more believable. Oh and hey, what do ya know, this is the episode that Ribrianne, the most hated character of Super, gets eliminated in. So surely if there would ever be a reddit thread to show off people's sexism towards the character, it'd be this one, no?

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/7 ... /?sort=top

And I'd say it's a more valid metric for determining something than your method, which is to... well, you don't even seem to have one, you just claim you've seen things.
Last edited by Asura on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1858
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:24 pm

https://youtu.be/d27EK8uHP0o

This is absolutely hilarious guys xD
“The fool looks to God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Swifticuffs wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
Asura wrote:
They're so much more vastly enormous yet you can't even seem to find any widespread examples of what you're claiming. So yes, until you're able to actually prove that there's a large, considerable amount of people who are calling them whores and sluts, you're a liar.
You seriously want me to go sift through the internet for you and post examples? How many discrete links and quotes do I need to provide for you to actually take the idea seriously? Don't bother answering, because the answer is obviously something like millions. Somehow you've never seen it. Or only ever seen a couple assholes here and there. So, I say I have seen huge quantities of sexism in the DB community on YouTube and reddit, but I'm a liar. You say you haven't seen much of it, if at all, but you're the righteous warrior fighting for the side of, um, I'm not even sure, everything being totally fine and wholesome? Kay.
He's fighting labeling. Something that's only OK when it's of a leftist mindset, clearly. Label us all because you personally have encountered X number of asshats on the net who legit could be only a handful of people making alternate accounts just to push their comments and troll like nuts.
Um... labeling. Labels like "liar?" What did I label? What agenda is it you think I'm trying to push or benefit from?
Sexism exists, we get it.
I mean... do you? That's all my original post said. And then I was "labelled" a "liar."
To say it is widespread in dragonball is nuts to me... and I've seen cesspools like Youtube. A few comments =!= the majority of the community automatically disliking the characters just because they're female. Stop. You know the ironic part too? You're the one trying to fight for awareness, but all you're doing is dividing. Reminds me a lot of modern day politics.
Here's what happens, in this thread, and in any thread that someone wants to bring up that sexism within the DB community exists. That person gets shouted down by "reasonable" people saying, "No, no! I'm not sexist! There's no sexism here! We can't talk about sexism, because *looks around* none of us are sexist, right guys?" Everyone chimes in their agreement. Angrily and defensively. Here's what literally, actually happened, in this thread.
Ziegander wrote:Do people really not understand the inherent sexism in calling Caulifla, Kale, or Brianne whores, but complain only that the writing was bad when, for example, Hermila & Prum "seriously challenge" most of team U7? I don't recall anyone getting viscerally pissed off at Prum for being such a threat to Our Boy Gohan, or him being called a fat fucking slob or anything else like that.

When a community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved. It doesn't mean every man or boy involved with that community is sexist, you don't all have to get defensive by a simple observation.
Asura wrote:It's a war that can very easily be won by disregarding people who actually think this way, which is definitely what you should do when you see anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter complain about widespread sexism against the female characters.

Point out that they're full of shit, and make it so other people don't fall into their lies.
Asura wrote:
Ziegander wrote:You're hilarious. YouTube and reddit are vastly more enormous communities than this website, but because there's no sexist comments made against the female characters on this site (and there still is, just not nearly as many or as transparently), then there simply is no widespread sexism in the overall Dragonball community? That's the position it sounds like you're arguing. And that anyone claiming there is widespread sexism in the DB community is a liar. Hilarious.
They're so much more vastly enormous yet you can't even seem to find any widespread examples of what you're claiming. So yes, until you're able to actually prove that there's a large, considerable amount of people who are calling them whores and sluts, you're a liar.
Notice how I never said the entire community is sexist. Notice how all I said is that inherent sexism exists in the DB community and that there's no harm in acknowledging it, and no reason everyone needs to get defensive about it every time it's brought up. But, true to form, out come the torches and pitchforks, and the "not all men" crowd to defend their honor from being besmirched by... oh, that's right, no one. Except maybe themselves. All I did was say, unequivocally, that sexism exists in the community, and, then, yes, I went on to say that I personally consider it a pretty widespread issue. But I guess that means I'm a liar. :thumbup:
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

Swifticuffs
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Swifticuffs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:32 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Swifticuffs wrote:
Ziegander wrote:
You seriously want me to go sift through the internet for you and post examples? How many discrete links and quotes do I need to provide for you to actually take the idea seriously? Don't bother answering, because the answer is obviously something like millions. Somehow you've never seen it. Or only ever seen a couple assholes here and there. So, I say I have seen huge quantities of sexism in the DB community on YouTube and reddit, but I'm a liar. You say you haven't seen much of it, if at all, but you're the righteous warrior fighting for the side of, um, I'm not even sure, everything being totally fine and wholesome? Kay.
He's fighting labeling. Something that's only OK when it's of a leftist mindset, clearly. Label us all because you personally have encountered X number of asshats on the net who legit could be only a handful of people making alternate accounts just to push their comments and troll like nuts.
Um... labeling. Labels like "liar?" What did I label? What agenda is it you think I'm trying to push or benefit from?
Sexism exists, we get it.
I mean... do you? That's all my original post said. And then I was "labelled" a "liar."
To say it is widespread in dragonball is nuts to me... and I've seen cesspools like Youtube. A few comments =!= the majority of the community automatically disliking the characters just because they're female. Stop. You know the ironic part too? You're the one trying to fight for awareness, but all you're doing is dividing. Reminds me a lot of modern day politics.
Here's what happens, in this thread, and in any thread that someone wants to bring up that sexism within the DB community exists. That person gets shouted down by "reasonable" people saying, "No, no! I'm not sexist! There's no sexism here! We can't talk about sexism, because *looks around* none of us are sexist, right guys?" Everyone chimes in their agreement. Angrily and defensively. Here's what literally, actually happened, in this thread.
Ziegander wrote:Do people really not understand the inherent sexism in calling Caulifla, Kale, or Brianne whores, but complain only that the writing was bad when, for example, Hermila & Prum "seriously challenge" most of team U7? I don't recall anyone getting viscerally pissed off at Prum for being such a threat to Our Boy Gohan, or him being called a fat fucking slob or anything else like that.

When a community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved. It doesn't mean every man or boy involved with that community is sexist, you don't all have to get defensive by a simple observation.
Asura wrote:It's a war that can very easily be won by disregarding people who actually think this way, which is definitely what you should do when you see anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter complain about widespread sexism against the female characters.

Point out that they're full of shit, and make it so other people don't fall into their lies.
Asura wrote:
Ziegander wrote:You're hilarious. YouTube and reddit are vastly more enormous communities than this website, but because there's no sexist comments made against the female characters on this site (and there still is, just not nearly as many or as transparently), then there simply is no widespread sexism in the overall Dragonball community? That's the position it sounds like you're arguing. And that anyone claiming there is widespread sexism in the DB community is a liar. Hilarious.
They're so much more vastly enormous yet you can't even seem to find any widespread examples of what you're claiming. So yes, until you're able to actually prove that there's a large, considerable amount of people who are calling them whores and sluts, you're a liar.
Notice how I never said the entire community is sexist. Notice how all I said is that inherent sexism exists in the DB community and that there's no harm in acknowledging it, and no reason everyone needs to get defensive about it every time it's brought up. But, true to form, out come the torches and pitchforks, and the "not all men" crowd to defend their honor from being besmirched by... oh, that's right, no one. Except maybe themselves. All I did was say, unequivocally, that sexism exists in the community, and, then, yes, I went on to say that I personally consider it a pretty widespread issue. But I guess that means I'm a liar. :thumbup:
You PERSONALLY consider it to be widespread. We ask for you to substantiate this claim, you cannot. Therefore, your opinion is as subjective as ours saying "No, I don't think the community has a WIDESPREAD sexism issue." The difference is, we can easily say we don't see the stuff. The burden of proof in this argument is on you since you're claiming something exists. You must substantiate that claim and not have it be solely subjective or based off a small nuance or two. And I didn't label you a thing, maybe someone else did. I'm tying this together with the issues of third wave feminism and how if anyone disagrees with anything it has a stance on, they're automatically sexist, misogynist, etc.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:37 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:https://youtu.be/d27EK8uHP0o

This is absolutely hilarious guys xD
This episode and the last one before that was possibly the first time the Zenos have actually made me laugh with their commentary. Maybe TOEI is learning that interrupting the fight just to have them go "WOAHHHH AMAZING' "WOOOAAHHH EXCITING" isn't very funny, or cute, or interesting.
Ziegander wrote:[spoiler]
Swifticuffs wrote:
Ziegander wrote:You seriously want me to go sift through the internet for you and post examples? How many discrete links and quotes do I need to provide for you to actually take the idea seriously? Don't bother answering, because the answer is obviously something like millions. Somehow you've never seen it. Or only ever seen a couple assholes here and there. So, I say I have seen huge quantities of sexism in the DB community on YouTube and reddit, but I'm a liar. You say you haven't seen much of it, if at all, but you're the righteous warrior fighting for the side of, um, I'm not even sure, everything being totally fine and wholesome? Kay.
He's fighting labeling. Something that's only OK when it's of a leftist mindset, clearly. Label us all because you personally have encountered X number of asshats on the net who legit could be only a handful of people making alternate accounts just to push their comments and troll like nuts.
Um... labeling. Labels like "liar?" What did I label? What agenda is it you think I'm trying to push or benefit from?
Sexism exists, we get it.
I mean... do you? That's all my original post said. And then I was "labelled" a "liar."
To say it is widespread in dragonball is nuts to me... and I've seen cesspools like Youtube. A few comments =!= the majority of the community automatically disliking the characters just because they're female. Stop. You know the ironic part too? You're the one trying to fight for awareness, but all you're doing is dividing. Reminds me a lot of modern day politics.
Here's what happens, in this thread, and in any thread that someone wants to bring up that sexism within the DB community exists. That person gets shouted down by "reasonable" people saying, "No, no! I'm not sexism! There's no sexism here! We can't talk about sexism, because *looks around* none of us are sexist, right guys?" Everyone chimes in their agreement. Angrily and defensively. Here's what literally, actually happened, in this thread.
Ziegander wrote:Do people really not understand the inherent sexism in calling Caulifla, Kale, or Brianne whores, but complain only that the writing was bad when, for example, Hermila & Prum "seriously challenge" most of team U7? I don't recall anyone getting viscerally pissed off at Prum for being such a threat to Our Boy Gohan, or him being called a fat fucking slob or anything else like that.

When a community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved. It doesn't mean every man or boy involved with that community is sexist, you don't all have to get defensive by a simple observation.
Asura wrote:It's a war that can very easily be won by disregarding people who actually think this way, which is definitely what you should do when you see anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter complain about widespread sexism against the female characters.

Point out that they're full of shit, and make it so other people don't fall into their lies.
Asura wrote:
Ziegander wrote:You're hilarious. YouTube and reddit are vastly more enormous communities than this website, but because there's no sexist comments made against the female characters on this site (and there still is, just not nearly as many or as transparently), then there simply is no widespread sexism in the overall Dragonball community? That's the position it sounds like you're arguing. And that anyone claiming there is widespread sexism in the DB community is a liar. Hilarious.
They're so much more vastly enormous yet you can't even seem to find any widespread examples of what you're claiming. So yes, until you're able to actually prove that there's a large, considerable amount of people who are calling them whores and sluts, you're a liar.
Notice how I never said the entire community is sexist. Notice how all I said is that inherent sexism exists in the DB community and that there's no harm in acknowledging it, and no reason everyone needs to get defensive about it every time it's brought up. But, true to form, out come the torches and pitchforks, and the "not all men" crowd to defend their honor from being besmirched by... oh, that's right, no one. Except maybe themselves. All I did was say, unequivocally, that sexism exists in the community, and, then, yes, I went on to say that I personally consider it a pretty widespread issue. But I guess that means I'm a liar. :thumbup:[/spoiler]
See, in the same post that you ask how you're labeling people, you then go on to insinuate and start labeling us all as sexists. In fact, it seems every time someone disagrees with your comments about sexism in the past you then start suggesting they're sexist too. Anyone who disagrees with you is apparently sexist.

You said "When a community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved." - When you say "When a community uses..." you're implying that this is a result of the entire, or at least the majority, of the community. It's not "a community" it's "a very very small fraction of the community."

So yes, when you use terms like this you are labelling the entire/majority of the community as sexist pigs who casually throw around words like slut and whore to define their dislike over some female characters.

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:40 pm

Swifticuffs wrote:You PERSONALLY consider it to be widespread.
Yes. Now clearly we have completely different opinions on what that terms means and how it should be applied. I don't care to argue about it.
We ask for you to substantiate this claim, you cannot.
lol, no, I refuse to spend any amount of time trying to qualify my argument to the arbitrary standards as decided by a couple dudes on the internet, then fetching examples for them in hopes that I might make them "see the light." It's not going to happen, and I will not do it. There's an important difference.
Therefore, your opinion is as subjective as ours saying "No, I don't think the community has a WIDESPREAD sexism issue." The difference is, we can easily say we don't see the stuff.
Hm, actually the difference, as I see it, is one side is simply saying something exists, you don't have to get all defensive about it, while the other side is getting super defensive and angrily fighting some war to stamp out the other side's argument, going as far as calling them liars to do so. So... if what I'm saying simply doesn't exist and simply isn't a problem, why would the other side get so defensive in the first place? I'm confused.
And I didn't label you a thing, maybe someone else did. I'm tying this together with the issues of third wave feminism and how if anyone disagrees with anything it has a stance on, they're automatically sexist, misogynist, etc.
I quoted someone you're agreeing with calling me a liar, it's just one post up if you care to read it. Please, do find the quote where I called you or Asura sexist or misogynist. Post it here, I'll wait.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

Swifticuffs
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Swifticuffs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:42 pm

deleted. thanks.
Last edited by Swifticuffs on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Asura wrote:See, in the same post that you ask how you're labeling people, you then go on to insinuate and start labeling us all as sexists. In fact, it seems every time someone disagrees with your comments about sexism in the past you then start suggesting they're sexist too. Anyone who disagrees with you is apparently sexist.

You said "When a community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved." - When you say "When a community uses..." you're implying that this is a result of the entire, or at least the majority, of the community. It's not "a community" it's "a very very small fraction of the community."

So yes, when you use terms like this you are labelling the entire/majority of the community as sexist pigs who casually throw around words like slut and whore to define their dislike over some female characters.
Ah. I didn't have to wait.

No, it was not my intention to label the entire community as sexist. If it was, I would have simply said, "Guys, just face it, the Dragon Ball community is comprised solely of sexist pigs and it's shameful and we need to fix it." I disagree with your conclusion about, and wow this sounds really dumb, the composition of my sentence, but since we're talking semantics here, I guess I'll go there. If I were to say, "when a corporation uses hazardous chemicals to clean their products, then dumps the waste into the ocean, no other conclusion can be made except to say that there's corruption involved." Would I be implying that every employee of that company is corrupt and wasteful? Would I even seem to be implying that the majority of employees of that company are corrupt? I don't see the difference.

So, no, I didn't label the entire community or even anyone in particular as anything. I said that sexism exists in the community and that no one needs to get defensive about it being acknowledged. If it will help any of you to see my point in a less defensive manner, I have no problem taking back what I said earlier and replacing it with,

"When a portion of the community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved." I have no problem with that, because the intention and meaning behind the two sentences remain the same to me.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

Swifticuffs
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Swifticuffs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Asura wrote:See, in the same post that you ask how you're labeling people, you then go on to insinuate and start labeling us all as sexists. In fact, it seems every time someone disagrees with your comments about sexism in the past you then start suggesting they're sexist too. Anyone who disagrees with you is apparently sexist.

You said "When a community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved." - When you say "When a community uses..." you're implying that this is a result of the entire, or at least the majority, of the community. It's not "a community" it's "a very very small fraction of the community."

So yes, when you use terms like this you are labelling the entire/majority of the community as sexist pigs who casually throw around words like slut and whore to define their dislike over some female characters.
Ah. I didn't have to wait.

No, it was not my intention to label the entire community as sexist. If it was, I would have simply said, "Guys, just face it, the Dragon Ball community is comprised solely of sexist pigs and it's shameful and we need to fix it." I disagree with your conclusion about, and wow this sounds really dumb, the composition of my sentence, but since we're talking semantics here, I guess I'll go there. If I were to say, "when a corporation uses hazardous chemicals to clean their products, then dumps the waste into the ocean, no other conclusion can be made except to say that there's corruption involved." Would I be implying that every employee of that company is corrupt and wasteful? Would I even seem to be implying that the majority of employees of that company are corrupt? I don't see the difference.

So, no, I didn't label the entire community or even anyone in particular as anything. I said that sexism exists in the community and that no one needs to get defensive about it being acknowledged. If it will help any of you to see my point in a less defensive manner, I have no problem taking back what I said earlier and replacing it with,

"When a portion of the community uses slurs and insults solely in reference to female characters they don't like, no other conclusion can be made except to say that sexism is involved." I have no problem with that, because the intention and meaning behind the two sentences remain the same to me.

If you didn't mean for it to say that the majority is sexist, then this is a valid claim and we should move on. I will delete my previous post.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm

Ziegander wrote:lol, no, I refuse to spend any amount of time trying to qualify my argument to the arbitrary standards as decided by a couple dudes on the internet, then fetching examples for them in hopes that I might make them "see the light." It's not going to happen, and I will not do it. There's an important difference.
There is no difference here, only an excuse. Apparently asking someone to back up their unsubstantiated claims is now referred to as "arbitrary standards", who would have thought?
Ziegander wrote:No, it was not my intention to label the entire community as sexist.
Oh? That doesn't really explain all the other countless posts you've made throughout this arc attacking people and making up boogeymen about widespread sexism in the fanbase and how it must be addressed.

Now to get back on topic with regards to the episode, just why did TOEI hype up Ribrianne this much if there wasn't going to be any pay off? Kale and Caulifla (and Kefla), as controversial as they were, had pay off. They had character development and progression. Caulifla grew to respect Goku and instead of thinking she was much greater than him, she acknowledges he's much better and wants him to teach her. Kale obviously went from a Broly clone to an actual character. Then they forced Goku to go UI and had possibly the most badass battle of the tournament outside of Goku vs Jiren. There was pay off.

So why so much focus on such a disliked character? Caulifla and Kale's focus actually made some people like them more whereas they disliked them before. With Brianne you've got that one line at the end of the episode where she says "Maybe there's different forms of love out there". That's it, that's the entire payoff and development of her character, all in one line. Why did they make such a big deal of her? Did they think her merchandise sales (if there even is any Ribrianne merchandise) would boom if they focused on her more?
Last edited by Asura on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:50 pm

Swifticuffs wrote:It is not arbitrary. You cannot define a majority of people to be sexist from a few comments (as you want to). It is an ignorant and uneducated viewpoint, period. And yes, I just labeled you. That's what you are. Ignorant. Sexism is not widespread in dragonball no matter how much you want it to be to fit your third wave feminism viewpoint.
Good job. You've leveled up! I'm proud of you.

Widespread =/= majority. Keep spouting the third wave feminism catch phrase though. I'll bet you don't consider racism to be a widespread issue still plaguing America, either. I wouldn't try to argue that a majority of Americans or even just white Americans are racist, but I would still consider racism to be a very widespread issue that America is still struggling to deal with in any satisfactory manner. While, obviously, the scope, nature, and cause for concern over racism in America and sexism in Dragonball are radically different, the fundamental usage of the terms widespread and majority still apply.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

Swifticuffs
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 117 (26 November 2017)

Post by Swifticuffs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:56 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Swifticuffs wrote:It is not arbitrary. You cannot define a majority of people to be sexist from a few comments (as you want to). It is an ignorant and uneducated viewpoint, period. And yes, I just labeled you. That's what you are. Ignorant. Sexism is not widespread in dragonball no matter how much you want it to be to fit your third wave feminism viewpoint.
Good job. You've leveled up! I'm proud of you.

Widespread =/= majority. Keep spouting the third wave feminism catch phrase though. I'll bet you don't consider racism to be a widespread issue still plaguing America, either. I wouldn't try to argue that a majority of Americans or even just white Americans are racist, but I would still consider racism to be a very widespread issue that America is still struggling to deal with in any satisfactory manner. While, obviously, the scope, nature, and cause for concern over racism in America and sexism in Dragonball are radically different, the fundamental usage of the terms widespread and majority still apply.
Even just white americans, eh? Let's just leave it here, politics are no fun and it's clear you've a very far left ideology up in that noggin.

Post Reply