Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

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BWri
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by BWri » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:15 am

Artorias wrote:The problem is the writers should actually just come out and SAY that it is in fact SSB2. That's all they would have to do, but since they for whatever reason refuse to explain ANYTHING in this show, we're left to just make up our own headcanon, which is bad writing.
This is SSJ Ikari 2.0. I guess they're playing it safe, since this is likely not a Toriyama creation. It's merely the equivalent of MSSB from the manga. I'm curious if Toriyama came up with that or if Toyotaro did. I wonder if Toriyama literally just says "Goku greatly powered up" or "Vegeta greatly powered up" in his outlines and both sides of production use that vague-ness to create what they want.

Before, I'd always thought that Toei pulled the trigger on SSBKK and that Toriyama later introduced the idea of MSSB, so Toei had to double down on using SSBKK because Goku and Vegeta already seemed to have few drawbacks with SSB in the anime. I don't think that makes a lot of sense though, because they could always just use MSSB whenever they wanted.

"
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Draconic wrote:Jiren's regular punches just being that strong when he's using more of his power just screams Saitama.
To be honest, Jiren feels more and more like a one-punch man parody.
"
I thought it was pretty obvious when he blew Maji Kayo away with a single hit that it's what the anime staff was going for. For the longest I was wondering where the bulk of Jiren's inspiration came from. There's Superman, of course and Saitama. Does anyone think All Might could've been one as well?
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:33 am

BWri wrote:
Artorias wrote:The problem is the writers should actually just come out and SAY that it is in fact SSB2. That's all they would have to do, but since they for whatever reason refuse to explain ANYTHING in this show, we're left to just make up our own headcanon, which is bad writing.
This is SSJ Ikari 2.0. I guess they're playing it safe, since this is likely not a Toriyama creation. It's merely the equivalent of MSSB from the manga. I'm curious if Toriyama came up with that or if Toyotaro did. I wonder if Toriyama literally just says "Goku greatly powered up" or "Vegeta greatly powered up" in his outlines and both sides of production use that vague-ness to create what they want.

Before, I'd always thought that Toei pulled the trigger on SSBKK and that Toriyama later introduced the idea of MSSB, so Toei had to double down on using SSBKK because Goku and Vegeta already seemed to have few drawbacks with SSB in the anime. I don't think that makes a lot of sense though, because they could always just use MSSB whenever they wanted.
But they should still say what the hell it is. Explain what the power up actually is, don't just give Vegeta a random power up and call it a day. The fact that Toriyama didn't directly tell them to do it seems irrelevant here, they should still be held accountable to explain their asspull forms. Just give me SOMETHING, ANYTHING. How about instead of doing needless, annoying, pace-destroying cutaways to the crowd talking about boring nonsense that no one cares about, they use that time to actually exposit something worth expositing.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by SonReggie » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:36 am

ShadowBardock89 wrote:Oh for Shin's sake.... Become SSB UI Gogeta and whip Jiren already!
I'm not sure even that would be enough to defeat Supergod at this point.

Might as well just have supergod fight the Grand Priest at this point.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:41 am

I really hope Universe 7 will win just so I can finally see Belmod and Khai getting erased. They're some of the most annoying characters of this arc with their constant Jiren asskissing.

What happened with Vados? There were some shots in which she completely disappeared!

How can guys like Roshi and Krillin keep up with the Goku vs Jiren fight?

I liked Goku in this episode and the throwback to one of my favorite recruitment episodes was very nice.

Good to see the eliminated pride troopers finally talking about the fights.

Zeno copying Jiren was definitely the best part of the episode.

I didn't like Vegeta's transformation. The form looks weird, and I didn't like how he was thinking about only Cabba and not at all about his family. Appearantly, a guy that he barely even knows since he didn't spend that much time with him is more important than his wife, his son and his newborn daughter to him.

Ok episode, a little better than the last one but not by much.
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by TheGreatSaiyaman » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:47 am

Solid episode, nice transformation as well as Jiren being Jiren :lol: NEP sounds like Gohan's out, oh well...he tried, that's all I can say.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Ki Breaker » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:49 am

TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:Solid episode, nice transformation as well as Jiren being Jiren :lol: NEP sounds like Gohan's out, oh well...he tried, that's all I can say.
Don't worry too much about him, there are changes he can still survive..
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by SonReggie » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 am

jplaya2023 wrote: why isn't goku using UI
He doesn't really know how to yet. As others have said, it seems to happen on it's own - and evidence would suggest it's something that triggers as a 'last resort' mechanism.

Although I did wonder whether it was about to happen when Goku was staring at the floor (after taking the beating that knocked him out of his SSB form); but seems that was just a tease - the circumstances and pose were appropriate but Goku obviously wasn't 'depleted' enough to trigger UI.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by darzap » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:15 am

TheDipDap1234 wrote:[...]I didn't like how he was thinking about only Cabba and not at all about his family. Appearantly, a guy that he barely even knows since he didn't spend that much time with him is more important than his wife, his son and his newborn daughter to him.
That's not too weird. Cabba has actually been erased a few minutes ago, placing all his trust in Vegeta. This would put a huge burden on anybody and that would be the first thing one thinks of, even though other people are more important in the grand scheme of things.

It also makes sense, when writing a kid's show, because right now Cabba is more present in the memory of the viewer than Bulla and Bulma, who were not seen since the beginning of the ToP.

[spoiler]They might show a longer emotion/memory wheel soon anyway, when Vegeta goes for his life-risking move.[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Android350 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:16 am

pfff how many stages/versions/transformations are there even.... sure is getting ridiculous.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by darzap » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:24 am

The laziness is strong with this episode. IIRC I saw the close-up of Jiren charging his fist three times. Also, the sequence with the spectators not moving at all felt exaggerated, and I feel like that was included to save work.

The peanut gallery keeps explaining the obvious while failing to provide much insight into that which requires an explanation. I understand that they have to cut away from the action because 100% action would be too much work, but it would help if they used that time away from the action more effectively.

The NEP looks interesting. The last image hints at Beerus being furious.
[spoiler]Probably his reaction to Freeza proposing to betray his team. However, I expect this to be a ruse (again). I don't expect his actual betrayal until after the defeat of U11. It would be nice to see the pride troopers reaction to the messed-up internal quarrels at U7, though. Maybe they leave a badly hurt pride trooper in the arena; this could increase tension because U7 might still lose that way.[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:26 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:Yeah, I can't really tell if Vegeta's new form is equal to: 1) SSBlue Kaioken Goku; 2) SSBlue Kaioken x20 Goku; 3) UI Goku

What do you guys think?


Also, I have decided on the name Super Saiyan Cobalt. To me, "Beyond Super Saiyan Blue", "Super Saiyan Blue 2", "Super Saiyan Blue Grade 2", etc. all sound inaccurate and weird.

The color name fits it well. This also isn't exactly an SS2, as there was no lightning. This also isn't exactly a Grade 2, as the sparkles and hair became different colors. This seems like it isn't related to SSBlue in the same way SS Grade 2/SS2 are related to SS1.
Well, on this EP we saw that Goku was using SSB KK x20.
After Goku activated the Kaioken, Beerus says that he was using all the power he had indicating that Goku was actually using KK at full power

And Vegeta managed to fight at the same pace as this Goku, so I guess Vegeta '' New SSB '' = Goku SSB KK x20
BWri wrote:
Artorias wrote:The problem is the writers should actually just come out and SAY that it is in fact SSB2. That's all they would have to do, but since they for whatever reason refuse to explain ANYTHING in this show, we're left to just make up our own headcanon, which is bad writing.
This is SSJ Ikari 2.0. I guess they're playing it safe, since this is likely not a Toriyama creation. It's merely the equivalent of MSSB from the manga. I'm curious if Toriyama came up with that or if Toyotaro did. I wonder if Toriyama literally just says "Goku greatly powered up" or "Vegeta greatly powered up" in his outlines and both sides of production use that vague-ness to create what they want.

Before, I'd always thought that Toei pulled the trigger on SSBKK and that Toriyama later introduced the idea of MSSB, so Toei had to double down on using SSBKK because Goku and Vegeta already seemed to have few drawbacks with SSB in the anime. I don't think that makes a lot of sense though, because they could always just use MSSB whenever they wanted.
TOEI most likely created the concept of SSB KK, and for almost 3 sagas, Goku remained stronger than Vegeta because of this technique. Then, nothing more fair than her to create something else, that makes Vegeta equal to Goku now.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:30 am

Pretty good episode, thought the animation had nothing actually noteworthy.

About Vegeta's new form........... it's literally ikari 2.0 with the only difference being that Vegeta's change it's being acknowledged in-universe so i'm fine with it. What annoyed me about rage was not that it had no explanation (ssj 3 didn't have any as well) but because the form.... was just there, and nobody was reacting to it as if something not normal was happening. Here Vegeta is simply doing what Goku did but on his own way,simply going all out beyond his limits. Hell i wouldn't even call this a new transformation, it can still be seen as super saiyan blue, but improved.

I like how Vegeta is not only obssesed with Jiren for his pride, but also for his "saiyan mentor duty", it really fixes all those scenes with him wanting to beat the very strongest fighter even thought Goku wasn't able to do it even with UI, so it doesn't seem like the typical "OH, the saiyan prince is blinded by his own hype" moment, but more like the not so typical "OH, here's a self called arrogant warrior who knows that he can't realistically do anything, but still doesn't give up because he still has to do something anyway" moment. That's nice, and pretty refreshing after all the bullshit that Vegeta has done (character wise) in this arc.

Goku using Krillin's strategy was pretty nice too, and also using his own one (mine field), it's funny how he got closer to defeating Jiren by using technique rather than raw power, it really reinforces the idea that mind=power in a fight.

Gohan and 17 teaming up was also really nice, but the best part of this episode was obviously the VegetaxGoku fight against Jiren. Some time ago i talked about this on other thread, about how i was hoping that Vegeta could still be kept on the tournament despite losing to this beast, instead of being eliminated, and how much i wanted to see these two saiyans work together to defeat Supersaitama (yes that's what i'm calling him now), and it seems i predicted the future so i feel really happy now.

EDIT:

Last week i couldn't say anything about it since i wasn't able to share my thoughts, but damn, the new ending is awful, both the visuals and the song are really off. Funny how i thought the last one was the very best of all and now i think this one is the worst.

NEP looks nice i'm looking forward to #124.
puar wrote:terrible episode. generic fights. sloppy animation. I'm tired of jiren and I'm tired of goku. i want to see toppo and dyspo and frieza. thankfully the next episode gonna focus on them.
But you did see Toppo and Dyspo, lol.
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Bullza » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:58 am

Kaiosama wrote:Still far inferior to UI Goku.
Of course it is, we all knew that. Ultra Instinct is the main form, the one that will eventually get mastered and be used to defeat Jiren. Vegeta isn't get that form in this Tournament so he has this other one.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:06 am

I'm in the vast minority here, but........

I think the art and animation is generally better than last week.

I can't explain why, but something about this style just fits better than Takahashi, lends itself better to the flow of animation.

The episode itself was pretty spectacular. Great action, strategy, and some nice character moments.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:10 am

darzap wrote:The NEP looks interesting. The last image hints at Beerus being furious.
[spoiler]Probably his reaction to Freeza proposing to betray his team. However, I expect this to be a ruse (again). I don't expect his actual betrayal until after the defeat of U11. It would be nice to see the pride troopers reaction to the messed-up internal quarrels at U7, though. Maybe they leave a badly hurt pride trooper in the arena; this could increase tension because U7 might still lose that way.[/spoiler]
Sorry but that is Dyspo

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Saturnine
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Saturnine » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:20 am

Well what can I say - Jiren is the type of opponent that Toei Goku could easily get rid of using the bullshit, asspull attack called Dragon Fist, as it was shown working against opponents considerably tougher than he was in GT and the movie. Good thing he doesn't have that here and has to rely on improvised tactics, that makes for a much more enjoyable fight IMO.

Also, Vegeta's new form looks really great, I was hoping Kakarot would at least grace it with a comment though.

Oh, and BTW it's just like I said - this form isn't meant to mirror Ultra Instinct, it's meant to be an equalizer with Goku's Kaioken x20.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Pannaliciour » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:57 am

I know the Universe get erased etc. But was I the only one having problems with the way Goku wanna win? Really? Thats not how Goku would win. The Goku I know would fight till death.

And the 2 saiyens vs 1 opponent??

It was wel done (perfect foreshadowing back then in ROF saga) but not in character.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:34 am

Saturnine wrote:Well what can I say - Jiren is the type of opponent that Toei Goku could easily get rid of using the bullshit, asspull attack called Dragon Fist, as it was shown working against opponents considerably tougher than he was in GT and the movie. Good thing he doesn't have that here and has to rely on improvised tactics, that makes for a much more enjoyable fight IMO.

Also, Vegeta's new form looks really great, I was hoping Kakarot would at least grace it with a comment though.

Oh, and BTW it's just like I said - this form isn't meant to mirror Ultra Instinct, it's meant to be an equalizer with Goku's Kaioken x20.
If Goku did have the Dragon Fist, all I can think is....

Goku : "Dragon Fist!!!"

Jiren: ".......Serious Punch!"
Pannaliciour wrote:I know the Universe get erased etc. But was I the only one having problems with the way Goku wanna win? Really? Thats not how Goku would win. The Goku I know would fight till death.

And the 2 saiyens vs 1 opponent??

It was wel done (perfect foreshadowing back then in ROF saga) but not in character.
On of DB's single greatest flaws in its later arcs was having the heroes, in life and death situations against powerful and utterly unscrupulous foes, knowingly choose to fight in one on one battles for no other reason then just because its "their turn" or some other very weak excurse. In almost all such cases the person trying the one on one BS eneded up getting badly beaten, normally Goku, and needing to be saved anyway only now they are badly hurt and the entire situation is 10 times worse.

While Jiren plays a fairer game then the likes of Frieza or Zamasu, and is not out of his mind like Buu, Goku literally cannot beat him in a strait fight. Goku tired to ring him out because it was his only option in a solo fight without Ultra Instinct. Even now with both him and Vegeta stronger then they were, with SSBKKx20 and Ultra Blue, Jiren is still barely taping into his true power and is still holding his own. If not for Jiren seemingly going out of his way to not make a serious attempt to ring them outright then and there, this would already be over by now. Even Ultra Instinct dose not seem to guaranty a victory here. With all that and the 7 minutes they've got left on the doomsday clock, they are doing this because they have to.

They have got no choice in the matter, its either win or lose now.
Last edited by Lord Frieza on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:58 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by darzap » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:38 am

OverHeaven wrote:Sorry but that is Dyspo
They really should give him another color then purple for his aura, if he has to get the same eye and skin color.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:41 am

darzap wrote:
OverHeaven wrote:Sorry but that is Dyspo
They really should give him another color then purple for his aura, if he has to get the same eye and skin color.
It could be that the whole point of that is to evoke similarities to Beerus, show that he's not to be taken lightly despite him failing to do any noticeable damage to Freeza in the current episode

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