Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:47 pm

Vegeta doesn't deserve anything. This is Goku's story, not Vegeta's. Vegeta is a former mass murder and has always been selfish. He wants to bring back the U6 Saiyans for his own selfish reasons and didn't even think about his family and newborn daughter when transforming. Gohan actually wants to protect his family and isn't some battle hungry saiyan, so if anything he should be the one getting the power-ups. But at the end of the day, they are just cartoon characters. It's just amusing to me that they're now deciding to throw Vegeta a bone when he's probably the least deserving person on the team aside from Frieza.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Birusu16 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:54 pm

Thought the episode was amazing. It gave Vegeta some really good character development that highlights just how far he's come and how much he's changed. He's not fighting in this tournament for his own selfish reasons like to test his limits against strong fighters, but rather he's fighting not only to save his family and universe, but to save a fellow Saiyan and his race. It demonstrates just how far Vegeta has come since his time as a ruthless killer. Him attaining his new form by pushing himself due to this was amazing.

As for the new form itself, I love it. The darker shade of blue looks so much better than the teal look that SSB had. The aura is absolutely magnificent with the much bigger and abundant sparkles. It really makes him look godly. It's probably my favorite transformation in Super.

People wanting a more detailed explanation on the form might as well quit while they're ahead because DB has never explained forms in great detail. SS? Oh just some legend with amazing power. SS2? Just a power beyond SS. SS3? There wasn't even an attempt at an explanation. :lol: SSG was the only transformation that had a detailed explanation of its origins and how it was attained.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:22 pm

Artorias wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Artorias wrote:
The problem is the writers should actually just come out and SAY that it is in fact SSB2. That's all they would have to do, but since they for whatever reason refuse to explain ANYTHING in this show, we're left to just make up our own headcanon, which is bad writing.
What did they call SSJ2 when SSJ2 first happened? It was just Gohan going 1 step further than before. It really wasn't even a defined form until SSJ3. It was just Gohan's special thing

There's virtually no difference. There's actually arguably more difference because Vegeta's hair changed a little bit and changed to a darker shade, his eyes got a darker shade of blue, he has more muscles, and he has a new aura with sparkles. I think people are going overboard on this one.
The difference there is SSJ2 or "ascended" or whatever the hell the characters thought it was in the Cell saga was actually built up early on. Everyone knew it feasibly existed, so when Gohan finally achieved it, everyone knew what had just happened. In the characters' minds it was effectively the "second" or "ascended" version of Super Saiyan. THIS on the other hand comes out of nowhere and the characters had no idea it could even be done. It just sorta...happens, with no build up, name, or even acknowledgement from Goku who's standing right next to him.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Then, nothing more fair than her to create something else, that makes Vegeta equal to Goku now.
I don't understand this mentality at all in this fandom. It's not about being "fair" to Vegeta, or any character. It's about telling a convincing narrative. Vegeta doesn't "deserve" anything. He's a fictional character in a story. When did fans somehow get the idea that Vegeta needs to be treated "fairly" and constantly stick with Goku in terms of power at every moment always?
Okay, so Goku can be destroyed in a battle and recover in seconds (getting stronger), can also RECOVER energy while SPELLING energy in a battle, can get a new power that even the gods have a hard time mastering with an exploding super Genki Dama in his face, but if Vegeta gets any of those things, is that a motive to complain?

I've never said that the explanation for Vegeta's new transformation is perfect or anything of the sort. In fact, she had less screen time than expected and could be far better explored on this EP.
But basically, it was the SAME explanation for when Goku got the UI (simply '' break the wall '' or push his limits), and the worst is that in Goku's case he had a Genki Dama (made to defeat Jiren) by swallowing him completely in a blast, and he survived.
What's the point of criticizing Vegeta's motivation for a new form that is apparently even weaker than the UI?

Certainly the DBS anime has some problem explaining transformations, but here everyone is treating like an SSJ Rage 2.0, and the new form of vegetation is much more plausible than the UP of Trunks.
And well, and this argument of '' he's just a fictional character '' only serves when we talk about vegeta. When we talk about Goku, we ignore all this bullshit (incidentally, we all know that they are not real characters)

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Artorias » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:26 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Artorias wrote:
lancerman wrote: What did they call SSJ2 when SSJ2 first happened? It was just Gohan going 1 step further than before. It really wasn't even a defined form until SSJ3. It was just Gohan's special thing

There's virtually no difference. There's actually arguably more difference because Vegeta's hair changed a little bit and changed to a darker shade, his eyes got a darker shade of blue, he has more muscles, and he has a new aura with sparkles. I think people are going overboard on this one.
The difference there is SSJ2 or "ascended" or whatever the hell the characters thought it was in the Cell saga was actually built up early on. Everyone knew it feasibly existed, so when Gohan finally achieved it, everyone knew what had just happened. In the characters' minds it was effectively the "second" or "ascended" version of Super Saiyan. THIS on the other hand comes out of nowhere and the characters had no idea it could even be done. It just sorta...happens, with no build up, name, or even acknowledgement from Goku who's standing right next to him.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Then, nothing more fair than her to create something else, that makes Vegeta equal to Goku now.
I don't understand this mentality at all in this fandom. It's not about being "fair" to Vegeta, or any character. It's about telling a convincing narrative. Vegeta doesn't "deserve" anything. He's a fictional character in a story. When did fans somehow get the idea that Vegeta needs to be treated "fairly" and constantly stick with Goku in terms of power at every moment always?
Okay, so Goku can be destroyed in a battle and recover in seconds (getting stronger), can also RECOVER energy while SPELLING energy in a battle, can get a new power that even the gods have a hard time mastering with an exploding super Genki Dama in his face, but if Vegeta gets any of those things, is that a motive to complain?

I've never said that the explanation for Vegeta's new transformation is perfect or anything of the sort. In fact, she had less screen time than expected and could be far better explored on this EP.
But basically, it was the SAME explanation for when Goku got the UI (simply '' break the wall '' or push his limits), and the worst is that in Goku's case he had a Genki Dama (made to defeat Jiren) by swallowing him completely in a blast, and he survived.
What's the point of criticizing Vegeta's motivation for a new form that is apparently even weaker than the UI?

Certainly the DBS anime has some problem explaining transformations, but here everyone is treating like an SSJ Rage 2.0, and the new form of vegetation is much more plausible than the UP of Trunks.
And well, and this argument of '' he's just a fictional character '' only serves when we talk about vegeta. When we talk about Goku, we ignore all this bullshit (incidentally, we all know that they are not real characters)
I was merely commenting on your use of the word "fair", which I've seen a lot lately. And I just don't think that's relevant. The question should be "Does this make sense?" or "Is this well written?", not "Is this fair?"

And second, the difference between UI and this form is that UI was established ARCS ago as an ultimate pinnacle of forms. This Vegeta form has come out of nowhere and has had zero build up, on top of the lack of explanation. And even THEN, it STILL makes less sense than UI, because at least with UI it's established that you need to get the shit kicked out of you and be on the verge of death, at which point your body takes over and goes into a state of being, whereas in this case, Vegeta literally just screams really loudly and somehow powers up. Why? Idk, and neither do the writers.

I would also argue that this is worse than SSJ Rage, because AT LEAST Rage came after an extremely emotional moment that caused Trunks to confront feelings he never had before, and it also allowed him to fend off Black while the others escaped and formed a plan. This new Vegeta form is likely (not guaranteed but likely) to amount to jack shit in the narrative. He's going to fight Jiren for a bit, lose, and that'll be that. It comes off as shameless, vapid pandering.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:30 am

Thinking about it, this episode has a lot in common with 113. They're both really entertaining episodes that probably could have been condensed or cut without losing much.

What happened in 113? Goku fights Caulifla, characters on the bench pad time by going on about how cool both of them are, at the end Kale shows up and gets a powerup, Nobody gets eliminated, no focus on other fights.

Now, what happened in 123? Goku fights Jiren, characters on the bench pad time by going on about how cool both of them are, at the end Vegeta shows up and gets a powerup, Nobody gets eliminated, very minor focus on other fights.

Episodes like these, even if they're fun really highlight the arc fatigue with the ToP. I don't mind it being so long when they're showing different things and cool fights week to week, but at some point you need to have something happen, or it gets stale. The only significant thing that happened was Vegeta's transformation, which should have come directly off his defeat at the end of 122. Goku v Jiren in this episode had some cool ideas that ultimately felt like filler. Imagine if they'd been allowed to happen in a more meaningful episode, where they could have actually had an impact.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by sintzu » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:42 am

Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta doesn't deserve anything.

This is Goku's story, not Vegeta's.

Vegeta has always been selfish. He wants to bring back the U6 Saiyans for his own selfish reasons.

He didn't even think about his family and newborn daughter when transforming.

Gohan should be the one getting the power-ups.

It's just amusing to me that they're now deciding to throw Vegeta a bone when he's probably the least deserving person on the team aside from Frieza.
Of course not, it's not like he breaks his back training and helping Goku against the big threats. :?

Who said it was turning into Vegeta's story ? :crazy:

Like Goku ? I guess if that's the case then Goku also doesn't deserve anything. :lol:

Why would he when he knows they're going to win ?

Never mind the fact he does nothing to get them, both in fighting and training but let's give them to him anyway because he's Goku's son. :roll:

This "bone" was decided when the script was written a year or so ago.

Like him or hate him, Vegeta is the 2nd most important and popular character in the franchise so he's not going anywhere. 8)
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:47 am

Comments on this episode:

- The animation/model of Goku's body as he's dodging Jiren in that opening clip just looks bad
- I wonder if Zeno is now going to use that line on someone before erasing them...
- I like the use of Freeza's telekinesis again
- How do they get the idea that long distance attacks are completely useless? It's just that the ones they've used so far haven't been strong enough. It's not like where Beerus could completely nullify ki attacks or where Super 17 could just absorb them.
- These landmine things sort of remind me of the Kamehameha decoy bombs Goku used against Freeza
- Considering how one of Jiren's teammates (Kyunshee) uses a similar technique, Jiren probably won't be too shaken by this
- So since the Cell instance was filler, is this the first official/canonical instance of someone grabbing a kienzan?
- Nice to see that at least some of Krillin's preparation paid off, even though he wasn't the one to use it
- If Goku had vaporized all of the debris then Jiren wouldn't have had anything to jump off of and he would have been eliminated...
- So Jiren's using more power than he has before, but Goku's doing better against him in normal SSJB than he did in SSJB Kaio-Ken x20 or Ultra Instinct? What?
- Consecutive Normal Punches, huh?
- Wait, how can Roshi sense Vegeta's god ki?
- I also like the version of the OP song playing here
- I thought Dyspo was fighting Freeza, why is he after Gohan now?
- If the episode title is at all accurate, Gohan gets eliminated next episode? I'm okay with that

This episode was good but not as good as the last one
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by AndyAvenue91 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:05 am

I really hope Vegeta's form gets some kind of decent explanation, but I won't hold my breathe after the Future Trunks stuff. The boost from thinking about U6 felt a bit forced too, I appreciate there is a relationship between Cabba and Vegeta but it really hasn't been built up enough for me to really feel meaningful. Perhaps if they spun it as him knowing the remaining Saiyans were wiped out leaving just him and Goku again then that would have seemed more genuine, that or him remembering he now has a daughter to protect who has literally just been born...

I also really liked Goku's use of the Kienzan and Zeno imitating Jiren was hilarious.
Polyphase Avatron wrote: - I also like the version of the OP song playing here
Agreed! Has this been used previously within the ToP? I feel like this is the first time I have heard it and it worked well.
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by StardustCrusaderX » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:31 am

Artorias wrote:
BWri wrote:
Artorias wrote:The problem is the writers should actually just come out and SAY that it is in fact SSB2. That's all they would have to do, but since they for whatever reason refuse to explain ANYTHING in this show, we're left to just make up our own headcanon, which is bad writing.
This is SSJ Ikari 2.0. I guess they're playing it safe, since this is likely not a Toriyama creation. It's merely the equivalent of MSSB from the manga. I'm curious if Toriyama came up with that or if Toyotaro did. I wonder if Toriyama literally just says "Goku greatly powered up" or "Vegeta greatly powered up" in his outlines and both sides of production use that vague-ness to create what they want.

Before, I'd always thought that Toei pulled the trigger on SSBKK and that Toriyama later introduced the idea of MSSB, so Toei had to double down on using SSBKK because Goku and Vegeta already seemed to have few drawbacks with SSB in the anime. I don't think that makes a lot of sense though, because they could always just use MSSB whenever they wanted.
But they should still say what the hell it is. Explain what the power up actually is, don't just give Vegeta a random power up and call it a day. The fact that Toriyama didn't directly tell them to do it seems irrelevant here, they should still be held accountable to explain their asspull forms. Just give me SOMETHING, ANYTHING. How about instead of doing needless, annoying, pace-destroying cutaways to the crowd talking about boring nonsense that no one cares about, they use that time to actually exposit something worth expositing.
If anything, we'll have to rely on Dragon Ball Heroes again to give the form an official name. :roll:

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 am

AndyAvenue91 wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote: - I also like the version of the OP song playing here
Agreed! Has this been used previously within the ToP? I feel like this is the first time I have heard it and it worked well.
If it's the instrumental version then yeah, it has been used before. Once in 109 when Goku was gathering energy for the Spirit Bomb and once in 118 during the climax of U2/U6's elimination.

It's a great piece, generally saved for intensely dramatic and important moments. Don't know what it was doing here.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:57 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:- If Goku had vaporized all of the debris then Jiren wouldn't have had anything to jump off of and he would have been eliminated...
Who knows. Perhaps he didn’t have time to vaporize all of them without being eliminated too. He had to use Instant Transmission to get back. Very cool scene though, it was close.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by dnavenom » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:32 am

Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta doesn't deserve anything. This is Goku's story, not Vegeta's. Vegeta is a former mass murder and has always been selfish. He wants to bring back the U6 Saiyans for his own selfish reasons and didn't even think about his family and newborn daughter when transforming. Gohan actually wants to protect his family and isn't some battle hungry saiyan, so if anything he should be the one getting the power-ups. But at the end of the day, they are just cartoon characters. It's just amusing to me that they're now deciding to throw Vegeta a bone when he's probably the least deserving person on the team aside from Frieza.
I agree with your Gohan line, he really deserves more and has the best motivation of all. Maybe the same as Vegeta, now that he has another child, which I`m pretty sure he loves very much. But Gohan really didn`t do anything to deserve a new form. Honestly I would like to see him pull some ultra ultimate form somehow, but it would like Kefla beating ssjb Goku, absurd.

Vegeta is loved exactly because he was a mass murderer, but turned good in the end. He is the character with most development throughout the series. The idea of redemption is a very appealing. To somehow make up for the sins you had, is something special. From being the monster he was, Vegeta is now a loving husband and father, with a ruff edge to his attitude, but a far better one than Goku will ever be. I don`t think Cabba or his promise should motivate him to gain the new form, the episode was executed bad so don`t blame Vegeta for this :) It`s just SUPER.

Does Vegeta deserve a boost- yes. He worked his ass off and still wasn`t equal to Goku. He is the hardest working character in all the franchise, think about it. He trained more than Goku and Gohan combined and still is on there level. That doesn`t happen in life. In RL if you work hard enough, you eventually make up for any talent deficiency. By this time Vegeta should have been a lot stronger than Goku, but it`s a TV show right :)

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Elvis143BRA » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:08 am

Good episode, but do the writers know that sacrificing speed for power (Vegeta's """"""new"""""" form) is useless?

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by lancerman » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:48 am

Disagree, we had no idea what SSJ2 was when it happened and yes they were trying to find new ways to manipulate the form, we didn't know their was a magical second level. By the time we got to this SSJB2 or whatever it is... we have SSJ, grades 2 and 3, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJG, SSJB, SSJR whatever Trunks did in the last arc, and UI.

It's not hard to believe their is a next level beyond SSJB.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by lancerman » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:49 am

Elvis143BRA wrote:Good episode, but do the writers know that sacrificing speed for power (Vegeta's """"""new"""""" form) is useless?
Did he sacrafice speed though? He has more muscles but does this form have less speed?

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Artorias wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Artorias wrote:
The difference there is SSJ2 or "ascended" or whatever the hell the characters thought it was in the Cell saga was actually built up early on. Everyone knew it feasibly existed, so when Gohan finally achieved it, everyone knew what had just happened. In the characters' minds it was effectively the "second" or "ascended" version of Super Saiyan. THIS on the other hand comes out of nowhere and the characters had no idea it could even be done. It just sorta...happens, with no build up, name, or even acknowledgement from Goku who's standing right next to him.



I don't understand this mentality at all in this fandom. It's not about being "fair" to Vegeta, or any character. It's about telling a convincing narrative. Vegeta doesn't "deserve" anything. He's a fictional character in a story. When did fans somehow get the idea that Vegeta needs to be treated "fairly" and constantly stick with Goku in terms of power at every moment always?
Okay, so Goku can be destroyed in a battle and recover in seconds (getting stronger), can also RECOVER energy while SPELLING energy in a battle, can get a new power that even the gods have a hard time mastering with an exploding super Genki Dama in his face, but if Vegeta gets any of those things, is that a motive to complain?

I've never said that the explanation for Vegeta's new transformation is perfect or anything of the sort. In fact, she had less screen time than expected and could be far better explored on this EP.
But basically, it was the SAME explanation for when Goku got the UI (simply '' break the wall '' or push his limits), and the worst is that in Goku's case he had a Genki Dama (made to defeat Jiren) by swallowing him completely in a blast, and he survived.
What's the point of criticizing Vegeta's motivation for a new form that is apparently even weaker than the UI?

Certainly the DBS anime has some problem explaining transformations, but here everyone is treating like an SSJ Rage 2.0, and the new form of vegetation is much more plausible than the UP of Trunks.
And well, and this argument of '' he's just a fictional character '' only serves when we talk about vegeta. When we talk about Goku, we ignore all this bullshit (incidentally, we all know that they are not real characters)
I was merely commenting on your use of the word "fair", which I've seen a lot lately. And I just don't think that's relevant. The question should be "Does this make sense?" or "Is this well written?", not "Is this fair?"

And second, the difference between UI and this form is that UI was established ARCS ago as an ultimate pinnacle of forms. This Vegeta form has come out of nowhere and has had zero build up, on top of the lack of explanation. And even THEN, it STILL makes less sense than UI, because at least with UI it's established that you need to get the shit kicked out of you and be on the verge of death, at which point your body takes over and goes into a state of being, whereas in this case, Vegeta literally just screams really loudly and somehow powers up. Why? Idk, and neither do the writers.

I would also argue that this is worse than SSJ Rage, because AT LEAST Rage came after an extremely emotional moment that caused Trunks to confront feelings he never had before, and it also allowed him to fend off Black while the others escaped and formed a plan. This new Vegeta form is likely (not guaranteed but likely) to amount to jack shit in the narrative. He's going to fight Jiren for a bit, lose, and that'll be that. It comes off as shameless, vapid pandering.
UI was established before, but it was somewhat vague (and not as the '' pinnacle of forms '' as you say.) And it had nothing to indicate that it was a kind of transformation (as shown in ToP), but a technique not only the Saiyans could dominate.

And the link between UI and Whis teachings to Goku and Vegeta in RoF only happened on EP 116, several episodes after the first appearance of UI (before, even if it was something expected, it had not been confirmed that it was the same technique ). It was not explained all in one episode, I do not know why complain that Vegeta's form has not yet been properly explained, after all it appeared at the end of the episode. Neither SSJ2 nor SSJ3 had explanations, we just knew they were forms above SJS. SSJ Rosé also was not explained in the anime, we had all this hatred?

In the EP 110 what we know was that Goku unlocked this technique (which even the GoDs have a hard time mastering) after breaking the wall, which was exactly the same explanation for how Vegeta got his transformation.
Goku unlocked after a Super Genki Dama exploded in his face while Vegeta got it because of the determination to keep his promise and overcome the limits in his own way.

Obviously, UI received much more attention and highlight, after all it was one of the highlights of this saga. While the new form of Vegeta was actually introduced in a hurried way
But she only appeared for a few minutes, we know almost nothing of it to draw so many conclusions hasty.
The point is that for now, at least we know the motivation for Vegeta to achieve that form and how he unlocked it. It may seem forced, but the point is that Vegeta has always trained enough to get to that level, and TOEI is also '' fixing '' the absurd difference created between Goku and vegeta with Kaioken (and which I can not believe is in the script of Toriyama)
Elvis143BRA wrote:Good episode, but do the writers know that sacrificing speed for power (Vegeta's """"""new"""""" form) is useless?
he new form of Vegeta has no connection with the Super Vegeta of the saga Cell.
She seemed more muscular, but this is only a consequence of the new transformation (Piccolo says she is different from Blue and Daishinkan's explanation is the same as for UI Goku)

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:58 pm

Noah wrote:
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Will admit aside from this shot, Vegeta's now-pupil'd eyes looked quite weird throughout the episode. I hope this is just only due to how this episode wasn't executed as well as usual this week.
For Christ sake he looks like a freaking Pokémon!
Which Pokémon? :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by Noah » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:03 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Which Pokémon? :lol:
I don't know, a Latios maybe? :D
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:16 pm

Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta doesn't deserve anything. This is Goku's story, not Vegeta's. Vegeta is a former mass murder and has always been selfish. He wants to bring back the U6 Saiyans for his own selfish reasons and didn't even think about his family and newborn daughter when transforming. Gohan actually wants to protect his family and isn't some battle hungry saiyan, so if anything he should be the one getting the power-ups. But at the end of the day, they are just cartoon characters. It's just amusing to me that they're now deciding to throw Vegeta a bone when he's probably the least deserving person on the team aside from Frieza.
The reason they probably didn't show Bulma and the family was because her voice actor died, dude. It was out of respect for a real-world tragedy.

Vegeta is a unique character BECAUSE he isn't just this pure hero with 100% selfless motives. That is what makes a character have depth. You can't decide who gets power-ups based on the morals of the character.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Post by BWri » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:39 pm

dnavenom wrote:
I agree with your Gohan line, he really deserves more and has the best motivation of all. Maybe the same as Vegeta, now that he has another child, which I`m pretty sure he loves very much. But Gohan really didn`t do anything to deserve a new form. Honestly I would like to see him pull some ultra ultimate form somehow, but it would like Kefla beating ssjb Goku, absurd.
I don't it'd be absurd for Gohan to be able to get to the highest echelons of power in his Ultimate state, simply because it's a state of him in his maximized potential and that can greatly increase through training. It's why I think Gohan's Ultimate state works even more than Goku and Vegeta's transformations, because he doesn't need to unlock anything, he just needs to push past his limits and he has the most potential to do so. Now he just needs to really apply himself and he can be the best.
Does Vegeta deserve a boost- yes. He worked his ass off and still wasn`t equal to Goku. He is the hardest working character in all the franchise, think about it. He trained more than Goku and Gohan combined and still is on there level. That doesn`t happen in life. In RL if you work hard enough, you eventually make up for any talent deficiency. By this time Vegeta should have been a lot stronger than Goku, but it`s a TV show right :)
As we know, hard work means nothing in Dragon Ball because if it did, Tien would be the strongest human, even among the androids, and Piccolo would be a top 3 powerhouse in U7 since Toriyama states that he never stops training and his potential appeared through the roof in the Namek, Android, and Cell arcs. But popularity and creator whimsy win the day.

And the only time I thought the training vs. talent power gap was too far was in the Cell Games. I don't think Goku and Gohan should've been that much stronger than Vegeta with a single trip compared to his two, even if they mastered their SSJ stamina. Other than that, I think Goku's methods of training were just more advanced and efficient than Vegeta's, combined with the fact that he's no training slouch either. Goku's just had a ton of martial arts masters including two gods, a demi-god, and an immortal old martial arts hermit and that was before Whis. He's accumulated all this martial arts, spiritual, and esoteric knowledge from them and as he all know, ki is spiritual in DB. So Vegeta has been lacking in this knowledge the whole time and is only now awakening to it thanks to Whis. Vegeta is on a road now to truly be Goku's equal, now that he's humbled himself before a master, but I think it'll still be a while before he is on Goku's level as a martial artist. Even though it empowers him, his ego also holds him back. This is why I like manga Vegeta more. He's willing to follow in Goku's footsteps if it means that he gets to progress as a martial artist, but in the anime he's all like "Waah, I can't do UI and Kakarot did it first, so I'ma, I'ma do my own more special-er transformation with pixie dust in my aura, sparkling eyes the likes of which Kakarot could never have and god hair way bluer than that oafs." I'm just waiting on manga Vegeta to use all that he's accumulated to finally surpass Goku in a big meaningful way, because I think his new anime form won't amount to much.
Torturephile wrote:I've been thinking that Goku was smarter than usual this episode after pulling those tricks on Jiren. It seems that the dork days of Goku from episodes such as 42 and 53 are fortunately long gone. Makes me wonder, would it be better if Vegeta pulled those tricks on episode 122 instead, considering his supposed "strategic and tactical" mindset for battle he has?
Outside of Namek, I've not really seen much of this tactical genius of Geets. His intimidation tactics were pretty good against fat Android and old Android, but then again he let himself be absorbed by Android 19 and put himself into a situation where he was at a possible disadvantage vs. Android 20, so while Piccolo was praising him, I was like "You dummy." He had no tactics but brute force and intimidation vs. Cell. His tactic vs. Buu of blowing himself up to eliminate every piece of Buu was simple, yet not effective. His plan at the end of the Buu arc was good and he executed it like a general, so points there. I can't think of a single moment he displayed any tactics in DBS. He brute forced everyone in the U6 arc. That's like his M.O. nowadays.

Goku's always used tactical "tricks" in his fights, but I did feel the stuff he did was a little too calculated in 123. Felt a little out of character, like just a little outside of Goku's abilities. Goku's brilliant at surprising foes with his clever spontaneous offense, but the way he placed those landmines seemed downright analytical. When I think of Goku analytical isn't what comes to mind.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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