Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

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JazzMazz
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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:29 am

ernesth100 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Prolonged jumping is a thing guys, even the original Dragonball tournaments, when the characters couldn't fly demonstrated this.

Also, again, why should he be disqualified if it doesn't end up killing anyone?

All freaking attacks in Dragonball are dangerous, its like saying that Goku should be disqualified because the Kamehameha or the kienzan could kill someone.
You're missing the point. None of those attacks are near as powerful as Hakai. Hakai is literally a force for erasure. Goku wouldn't ever deliberately try to destroy someone with that wave, and no one in their right mind would aim a Kienzan at an opponent they know it would kill. Toppo however is firing these blasts that are literally disintegrating everything in their path with an aura around his body that makes him virtually untouchable by any energy attack. Ya'll don't think that's a little unfair?
No, I don't think its unfair in the least since we are dealing with characters that can easily generate attacks of that magnitude if they really tried. This is the tournament of power, why shouldn't the characters be allowed to use their powers?

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by Amir » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:59 pm

But hakai is still hakai, whether or not you make it weaker or stronger, it still erases you from existence if it overpowers you. Toppo just fired it at Frieza without caring, he even said: ''destroy'' which showed his intent.
My point is that it's not a normal ki attack like the rest.

Saying he was surprised he was able to resist it and not because he alive is kinda headcanon. He said: ''So you withstood that, impressive'', and people who can't withstood it simply get erased.

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:32 am

Amir wrote:But hakai is still hakai, whether or not you make it weaker or stronger, it still erases you from existence if it overpowers you. Toppo just fired it at Frieza without caring, he even said: ''destroy'' which showed his intent.
My point is that it's not a normal ki attack like the rest.

Saying he was surprised he was able to resist it and not because he alive is kinda headcanon. He said: ''So you withstood that, impressive'', and people who can't withstood it simply get erased.
Its a generic anime line that can mean any number of things, it can mean you didn't die from the attack, but it also means you were able to successfully take the attack head on. So considering the context of this tournament, where killing is not allowed, something Toppo himself is very aware of, it makes no sense for that line to be referring to the former context.

I think your missing the obvious conclusion of Toppo's use of the Hakai in this tournament, and that is simply to incapacitate.

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:12 am

Didn't like much this episode, I expected more from Freeza, I felt like in this arc he was beginning to learn with his mistakes, but when I saw him insulting Toppo, I was already predicting what was going to happen, no surprise
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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by ernesth100 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:39 am

JazzMazz wrote: No, I don't think its unfair in the least since we are dealing with characters that can easily generate attacks of that magnitude if they really tried. This is the tournament of power, why shouldn't the characters be allowed to use their powers?
I never said they shouldn't be allowed to use their powers. But if Beerus, Belmond or any of the other GoD's can't jump in why is Toppo allowed to run around the tournament with the same exact power? Granted, this argument has ran it's course. I stand firmly behind my belief Toppo shouldn't be allowed to use this power. And you stand firmly behind yours. As a mature adult let's agree to disagree. :thumbup:
jeffbr92 wrote:Didn't like much this episode, I expected more from Freeza, I felt like in this arc he was beginning to learn with his mistakes, but when I saw him insulting Toppo, I was already predicting what was going to happen, no surprise
Bruh, I watched this episode with my friends and the whole time he was talkin trash we were like "bro, this kid boutta get wrecked." and sure nuff he did. If I can come up with a list of the times Frieza talked himself into a situation he could've finished...actually it'd be a short list but still.

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:51 pm

ernesth100 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: No, I don't think its unfair in the least since we are dealing with characters that can easily generate attacks of that magnitude if they really tried. This is the tournament of power, why shouldn't the characters be allowed to use their powers?
I never said they shouldn't be allowed to use their powers. But if Beerus, Belmond or any of the other GoD's can't jump in why is Toppo allowed to run around the tournament with the same exact power? Granted, this argument has ran it's course. I stand firmly behind my belief Toppo shouldn't be allowed to use this power. And you stand firmly behind yours. As a mature adult let's agree to disagree. :thumbup:
The answer is simple, because he isn't the official representative God of Destruction from universe 11. Going by your idea, Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be able to participate because they also have God powers, hell by your logic, Goku should have been disqualified when he learnt UI, since thats a thing it was believed only Gods and angels could learn, by why aren't you complaining that UI is a foul?

God Ki was always intended to be only be used by Gods, but Goku and Vegeta can participant and use the forms freely, and UI is a form that is believed only to be attainable by Angels and Gods of Destruction, yet Goku could also use it and didn't get disqualified. What is the problem with someone like Toppo taking on the powers of a GOD, while actually not being one officially?

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by ToshioWrites » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:16 pm

IMO Toppo Saying " You Withstood that, Impressive" was meant as he was surprised Freeza didn't get eliminated or knocked unconscious by the attack and not that freeza didn't get erased. Toppo even says to Freeza he can destroy him if he wants but that would result in DQ

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by ernesth100 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:04 am

JazzMazz wrote:
ernesth100 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: No, I don't think its unfair in the least since we are dealing with characters that can easily generate attacks of that magnitude if they really tried. This is the tournament of power, why shouldn't the characters be allowed to use their powers?
I never said they shouldn't be allowed to use their powers. But if Beerus, Belmond or any of the other GoD's can't jump in why is Toppo allowed to run around the tournament with the same exact power? Granted, this argument has ran it's course. I stand firmly behind my belief Toppo shouldn't be allowed to use this power. And you stand firmly behind yours. As a mature adult let's agree to disagree. :thumbup:
The answer is simple, because he isn't the official representative God of Destruction from universe 11. Going by your idea, Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be able to participate because they also have God powers, hell by your logic, Goku should have been disqualified when he learnt UI, since thats a thing it was believed only Gods and angels could learn, by why aren't you complaining that UI is a foul?

God Ki was always intended to be only be used by Gods, but Goku and Vegeta can participant and use the forms freely, and UI is a form that is believed only to be attainable by Angels and Gods of Destruction, yet Goku could also use it and didn't get disqualified. What is the problem with someone like Toppo taking on the powers of a GOD, while actually not being one officially?
Okay, God of Destruction Ki and Goku/Vegeta's God Ki are two different types of ki. GoD ki is Hakai energy instantly destroys everything. SSG and SSB are just SS forms powered up to near GOD level. But clearly not as deadly and destructive as Hakai.

As for UI not only did Goku literally just get that form and is still working to perfect it, but it's(once again)no where near as destructive and deadly as Hakai energy. I'm pretty sure if UI Goku faught Toppo rn, Toppo would win, because Toppo was literally trained by his universes God of Destruction and Angel to use it. Where as Goku is learning as he goes on. Hence, my point still stands that Toppo now has a highly unfair advantage that the writers are trying to justify by basically saying "herp derp, suddenly Hakai doesn't disintegrate people anymore" but knowing Super they'll just go "herp derp, Vegeta pulls another new technique out of his ass to stop him". And I'm cool with it, all in the power of the pen, but that doesn't make the plot holes any less cheap and the cop outs any less convenient.

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:17 am

ernesth100 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
ernesth100 wrote: I never said they shouldn't be allowed to use their powers. But if Beerus, Belmond or any of the other GoD's can't jump in why is Toppo allowed to run around the tournament with the same exact power? Granted, this argument has ran it's course. I stand firmly behind my belief Toppo shouldn't be allowed to use this power. And you stand firmly behind yours. As a mature adult let's agree to disagree. :thumbup:
The answer is simple, because he isn't the official representative God of Destruction from universe 11. Going by your idea, Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be able to participate because they also have God powers, hell by your logic, Goku should have been disqualified when he learnt UI, since thats a thing it was believed only Gods and angels could learn, by why aren't you complaining that UI is a foul?

God Ki was always intended to be only be used by Gods, but Goku and Vegeta can participant and use the forms freely, and UI is a form that is believed only to be attainable by Angels and Gods of Destruction, yet Goku could also use it and didn't get disqualified. What is the problem with someone like Toppo taking on the powers of a GOD, while actually not being one officially?
Okay, God of Destruction Ki and Goku/Vegeta's God Ki are two different types of ki. GoD ki is Hakai energy instantly destroys everything. SSG and SSB are just SS forms powered up to near GOD level. But clearly not as deadly and destructive as Hakai.

As for UI not only did Goku literally just get that form and is still working to perfect it, but it's(once again)no where near as destructive and deadly as Hakai energy. I'm pretty sure if UI Goku faught Toppo rn, Toppo would win, because Toppo was literally trained by his universes God of Destruction and Angel to use it. Where as Goku is learning as he goes on. Hence, my point still stands that Toppo now has a highly unfair advantage that the writers are trying to justify by basically saying "herp derp, suddenly Hakai doesn't disintegrate people anymore" but knowing Super they'll just go "herp derp, Vegeta pulls another new technique out of his ass to stop him". And I'm cool with it, all in the power of the pen, but that doesn't make the plot holes any less cheap and the cop outs any less convenient.
Still not seeing any plot holes.

If Freeza were to die by ANY means, he'd just be gone, erased.

Hakai Energy is just better at destroying things. Anything that's sufficiently powered up to destroy can do what it does except not erase people from existence, and Hakai Energy can be suppressed like anything else, or else Beerus would've simply instantly destroyed SSG Goku and he'd be gone forever. Unfair advantages, as long as they're either within the rules or OK'd by the Zenos, are fine. The gods and spectators can call things cheap, but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed.

Based on your logic, the Kienzien shouldn't be allowed because it can also easily kill people. Being sliced apart sounds like it'd be A LOT worse than simply poofing out of existence.

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by ernesth100 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:23 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Still not seeing any plot holes.

If Freeza were to die by ANY means, he'd just be gone, erased.

Hakai Energy is just better at destroying things. Anything that's sufficiently powered up to destroy can do what it does except not erase people from existence, and Hakai Energy can be suppressed like anything else, or else Beerus would've simply instantly destroyed SSG Goku and he'd be gone forever. Unfair advantages, as long as they're either within the rules or OK'd by the Zenos, are fine. The gods and spectators can call things cheap, but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed.

Based on your logic, the Kienzien shouldn't be allowed because it can also easily kill people. Being sliced apart sounds like it'd be A LOT worse than simply poofing out of existence.
How is getting cut in half worse than being erased from existence? :wtf:

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Re: Super Episode 125 (28 January 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:31 am

ernesth100 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Still not seeing any plot holes.

If Freeza were to die by ANY means, he'd just be gone, erased.

Hakai Energy is just better at destroying things. Anything that's sufficiently powered up to destroy can do what it does except not erase people from existence, and Hakai Energy can be suppressed like anything else, or else Beerus would've simply instantly destroyed SSG Goku and he'd be gone forever. Unfair advantages, as long as they're either within the rules or OK'd by the Zenos, are fine. The gods and spectators can call things cheap, but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed.

Based on your logic, the Kienzien shouldn't be allowed because it can also easily kill people. Being sliced apart sounds like it'd be A LOT worse than simply poofing out of existence.
How is getting cut in half worse than being erased from existence? :wtf:
Because you're suffering as you bleed out all over the place and feel the pain of losing body parts, whereas with erasure, we see that they simply disappear...... UNLESS they can struggle against the Hakai Energy like Freeza and Goku did.

Besides that, what specifically makes the usage of this energy a plot hole? As we see with Freeza and Goku, if you're strong enough AND the wielder knows how to control this power, then there's no risk of erasure. Not to mention that Hakai Energy can also be used for more general destructive purposes like destroying planets and whatnot without wiping everything out entirely, as seen when Sidra controls the Hakai technique to only destroy a city in chaos.

As long as you aren't killing and using weapons or healing items, ANYTHING GOES. That includes techniques that CAN kill. As long as you make sure you don't kill people with those techniques, they're okay to use.

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