Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:58 pm

Doctor. wrote:That was awful. One of the weakest episodes in the series. So many bad decisions I can't even count.

Why is Toppo spamming Hakai spheres even though it supposedly takes a while to charge them? And why is he using them to blow up some rubble when his normal attacks should do that just fine? Why did #17 think that trapping Toppo under some rubble was an effective strategy when even the weakest fighters in the tournament could blow up the arena? I appreciate them trying to make #17 out to be some kind of tactician but that was a dumb strategy. And yet again with the rocks, if base Freeza (somehow) managed to trap Toppo, why did he waste his time throwing rocks and blasting him instead of just throwing him out of the arena like he did on Namek with Goku? Why is Jiren calling Goku and Vegeta "impudent bastards"? I want to say it feels out-of-character, after the way he keeps praising them both, but Jiren is just such a piece of boring cardboard that I can't even make that assertion. They claim that splitting up Goku and Vegeta is bad because then U11 would have the upperhand... how, exactly? If they split up Goku and Vegeta, then #17 and Freeza will fight Jiren alongside with Goku. U7 has the numerical advantage, how would splitting the fighters up be to THEIR detriment and not to U11's?

Hakai was just wasted completely. I won't dwell on the fact that any character touching Toppo should be destroyed (due to his Hakai aura), because Toppo obviously doesn't want to be DQ'd so he probably "turns it off" when attacking physically or when he's being attacked, but the fact that the Hakai balls can be destroyed by punches and Ki attacks is just stupid. Why bother going through the trouble of introducing this different kind of energy if it's no different from everything else? This problem already applied to last episode with Freeza surviving the Hakai sphere but it just gets amped up to absurdity in this one. "I'll give you an attack too powerful to destroy" is up there with "I'm too fast for your Time-Skip now" and "My power surpasses my own understanding." I shouldn't have to explain why Vegeta getting a power boost thinking of his family and friends is a bad thing. It was bad when he first transformed, it's bad now. Dragon Ball doesn't do power-ups like that and, when it does, they come from rage and/or amount to nothing.

The decision to use his self-destruction move was stupid. He did it against Boo because he was losing and, even if he was stronger, he'd have to blow him up so he wouldn't be able to regenerate. Here, he was winning and all he had to do was throw Toppo out of the arena. Why sacrifice your Ki and health over a fight that you had the upper-hand in? And the scene itself was terrible. You don't defeat a major antagonist with a rehash of a previous moment. That's not memorable, that's not new, that's not exciting. That's stupidly trying to piggyback on the old series' name and status without actually having the balls to go through and kill the character off like Z did. Let's throw a bit of character regression by switching Goku's name in his speech to Cabba's. Furthermore, the excuse they used was just incredibly stupid. He survived because he's stronger now than he was back in the Boo arc? Uh... his fucking attack is stronger now, too! Or are they trying to imply that Vegeta just eliminated Toppo with an attack that couldn't even kill Majin Boo? And, of course, Toppo amounted to nothing after his display last episode. You thought he was going to be defeated by some strategy after they stressed how he must have a weakness in his perfect defense and he needs to charge his attacks. But nope, he just gets overpowered.

The stamina thing is getting out of hand. If Goku wasn't enough, Freeza is back up this episode after getting absolutely destroyed in the last one (and his presence didn't serve any purpose, either. He's out of sight after his attack and isn't even present in the NEP). Vegeta, too, used all of his power, only to get back to full power next episode. I also think this needs to be stated, the episode was filled with an excessive amount of padding. 2 minutes at the start showing us the end of the previous episode plus 2 minutes of a flashback of Majin Vegeta's sacrifice. What's the point?

There were some things I appreciated, but they were plagued with problems also. I liked #17 being treated as a tactician as I said, but I've already highlighted the problems in his strategy. I like Jiren belittling Toppo, because I feel that one who holds justice at such a high level would have no respect for someone like Toppo who chose to cast it aside, but without the knowledge we have on his character from the manga, it feels contradictory with the way he's been portrayed so far and even out-of-character (as well as his little smirk at the end). I did like him one-shotting Goku though, since that's what he should be capable of doing and what he should have done all along. Thematically, I like the idea of Vegeta, who takes a more selfless pride on who he is and who he's surrounded by, defeating someone who chose to cast away his ideals for the sake of power, but, again, the way it was executed was awful.

I don't usually rant like this, but this was beyond terrible, it even surpasses episode 12. I didn't think the ToP could be this bad before, but it just keeps proving me wrong. I fear for the finale.

I have to agree with pretty much all of this. This episode was horrendous, the writing was horrific, storyboarding terrible, completely unmemorable. What a gigantic let down from last week which was incredible...

The callback was so bad, there was no emotion behind it or anything... ugh. I want to forget this episode existed.

NEP shows Vegeta is up again and at full power... wow. I've lost count as to how many times this stamina shit has been mentioned, and then completely dropped the next episode.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Turambar » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:58 pm

Wow. I stayed away the last couple of weeks, expecting this place to be pretty toxic, and came in this week expecting the opposite. My poor expectations.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:59 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
LightBing wrote:Abysmal. I try not to be overly negative when talking about flaws of the show but this episode really hit me hard.

The whole episode is devoid of imagination, whoever wrote this isn't good. Ki spamming for half an episode with a silly tactic, bad but not criminal. Not the first episode to provide this type of tasteless and uninspired action which makes one write down the episode number to avoid a re-watch. Freeza was in mix because I guess it was fun to pummel him in the last episode and we needed a repetition?

Now for what's abysmal, Vegeta's participation is plagiarism from the Boo Arc while undermining what is copying. The writer(s) added Bulla, gave Vegeta a shonen boost, splashed a bit of Toppo's and destroyed the meaning of a suicide attack because it's easy and for the plot.
There's no being stronger or having Blue, if you release all of your energy you're dead. What Vegeta did in this episode is the same he did in the Saiyan Arc and what Piccolo did in the 23rd TB an "explosive wave".

You can't reuse material constantly, put it above key moments from this so called new story and make it worse. This episode made me happy Super is ending and that's a not right, this was actually saddening. Even worst it happened on "Vegeta's episode" who's my favourite character.

Oh and I guess Jiren is an even bigger asshole? All of a sudden he's bad mouthing Toppo..., it's painfully obvious they are making him a villain, a dull portrait.

:( :thumbdown:

So many posts of "what's up with Jiren suddenly thrashing Toppo?"

In episode 125, Jiren was disappointed that Toppo chose "God of destruction powers" over his duty of justice to the Pride Troopers.

Jiren is some one whos all about morals and justice. Jiren is Dragon Ball's Superman

So Jiren was basically like, "serves you right choosing against justice, that's what you get Toppo, now I'm going to show you how it's done while remaining true to the essence of the Pride Troopers"

It boggles my mind how many can not seem to understand this
I honestly liked the line. From 125 he didn't seem like he approved of what Toppo did. Now after throwing everything away Toppo does jackshit with it, Jiren seems to just be displaying his disappointment in throwing away what you represent for power only to accomplish nothing for going against your beliefs. Seems fine to me.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:00 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:You dont need to know about Jiren's backstory TO KNOW that in episode 125 Jiren was disappointed that Toppo chose destruction over justice (in order to survive).
You don't have enough information to make this kind of assertion. All he said was "So you finally made your choice, Toppo?" which implies he knew about Toppo's dilemma and nothing else. Later on, he looked at Toppo's destruction with a neutral expression. That's it.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:that's Ok, but state it as an opinion, don't ever try and say it was a flaw or bad writing. People in here need to be able to distinguish between whats an actual flaw vs something you just didnt personally like
Flaws and bad writing are mostly opinion-based and subjective. I don't know where you're getting at with this line of reasoning. It's implicit in every one of our posts that this is our opinion.
Last edited by Doctor. on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:00 am

Turambar wrote:Wow. I stayed away the last couple of weeks, expecting this place to be pretty toxic, and came in this week expecting the opposite. My poor expectations.
Yeah. I think I'm going to just avoid episode discussion threads from now on. I can only imagine how bad it's going to get from here on with the last fighters falling off.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:02 am

Turambar wrote:Wow. I stayed away the last couple of weeks, expecting this place to be pretty toxic, and came in this week expecting the opposite. My poor expectations.
What's with this talk of being "toxic"? Because people talk about their disdain for an episode that makes it toxic? I never see any of this toxicity that people refer to.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:03 am

Kinokima wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:This might have been better if Vegeta's resolve moment happened here instead of back in 123, the simple acknowledgment of his family alongside his promise to Cabba made it that much more effective, plus it would have been spaced out so as not to get two heroic speeches back-to-back like in 122/123. Also, trying to homage the legendary Majin Vegeta sacrifice with ToP Vegeta is like getting a spoiled fat kid to run against Usain Bolt in the 100m sprints.

Yeah, this was dreadful. No good character writing whatsoever. Toppo and Jiren both came across as unlikeable wankers; there seemed to be a theme throughout this episode of holding onto your principles, how Toppo was wrong to give up his, while Vegeta was right to hold onto his and that's why he was able to win. Vegeta mocks Toppo for giving up justice (despite having never heard him say it before), Toppo mocks Vegeta for caring about Saiyans, Jiren insults Toppo for losing, then praises Vegeta for winning without giving anything up. Aren't you two meant to be superheroes?

The core problem with that idea is "justice" and "pride" are such nebulous concepts that we're being asked to care about. I can get behind emotional outbursts fueling powerups, that's Anime 101 and Dragon Ball practically invented it. The problem is, there's no emotion here. Characters are literally just Describing How They Feel. "I No Longer Feel Justice, Therefore I Am Strong". "I Feel Pride Therefore I Am Stronger". I've seen people accuse the Tournament of Power of feeling like bad pro wrestling before, this is the first time I've really felt it.

Not to mention the issue of 17 and Freeza still being in despite how last episode went, Vegeta still being in despite supposedly sacrificing himself (and any tension that left in the arc). I fear for the finale. Please come back Ultra Instinct, please save this show.
It wasn’t really Justice vs pride but a battle of philosophies not about who is stronger. Toppo threw away everything of who he was to survive and Vegeta said that is nonsense I don’t need to throw away who I am because that’s where I get my strength.

And if you recall this is exactly what he says to Jiren in 122. I may be Arrogant but I can never throw away who I am.

I am not saying the episode didn’t have flaws of logic here and there but I loved the concept of two opposing philosophies going at each other. Toppo thought he needed to throw away everything he believed (his Justice) to be true to survive that only survival mattered. But Vegeta proved to him that this isn’t true. Vegeta held onto his family, his promise and his pride. I guess the episode asked in this fight for survival can you remain true to yourself and your ideals and still survive. Toppo thought no but in the end he was wrong.
It's a nice principle, but the way it was executed was so mediocre. We never got to see the conflict Toppo was having about his philosophy, only the end result. And we still don't know enough about Jiren in general to explain why he'd be so belittling of Toppo. There could be a reason there, but we can only fan wank or go with the manga characterisation. As far as the show is concerned, Jiren's just a dick.

And Vegeta getting another big speech so soon after the last TWO he got against Jiren is a big reason I'm so annoyed with it, and him in this arc in general. As I said, if this had been the first time, it might have worked. It also doesn't help that he has no actual dynamic with Toppo, so a battle of philosophies fall flat. The only other time they fought, all it produced was some schoolyard banter about being the second-strongest. And he stumbled into the fight with him here basically by accident.

Since people have been bringing this up as a negative comparison, can I talk about how episode 66 did the whole idea better? Like, Trunks facing down Zamasu at the end of that was the right way to do an emotional powerup and a battle of philosophies. We saw how desperate the two of them where getting, the entire arc had built up Trunks' role as a symbol of hope and Zamasu as his personal nemesis, and then at the end he pulls it off in the climax with everybody backing him up. That's how ya do it.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by precita » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:03 am

The ep was somewhat disappointing, but not because of anything that happened in it. Freeza should have stayed absent and Toppo should have least 3 eps, but the way Vegeta won was fine.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:05 am

LightBing wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:So many posts of "what's up with Jiren suddenly thrashing Toppo?"

In episode 125, Jiren was disappointed that Toppo chose "God of destruction powers" over his duty of justice to the Pride Troopers.

Jiren is some one whos all about morals and justice. Jiren is Dragon Ball's Superman

So Jiren was basically like, "serves you right choosing against justice, that's what you get Toppo, now I'm going to show you how it's done while remaining true to the essence of the Pride Troopers"

It boggles my mind how many can not seem to understand this
I remember something like "so you've decided" from Jiren after Toppo chooses. If I missed anything my bad; but that's what one line? It's fair too sudden to be good characterization, I maintain it seems forced in to make Jiren look "evil".
Anime Jiren is no Superman, I don't see any morality or justice in him.
How does Jiren thrash talking Toppo a little, make him look "evil?" Are people serious with this?

I would say Toppo was actually shown in an evil light; choosing destruction over justice, trying to Hakai everything etc

Is a little thrash talking now more evil then actually trying to Hakai?

I think it was just Jiren doing some playful thrash talking and them trying to give Jiren some personality and flair. I personally loved it
Last edited by ZenkaiBoosts on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:08 am

Asura wrote:
Doctor. wrote:That was awful. One of the weakest episodes in the series. So many bad decisions I can't even count.

Why is Toppo spamming Hakai spheres even though it supposedly takes a while to charge them? And why is he using them to blow up some rubble when his normal attacks should do that just fine? Why did #17 think that trapping Toppo under some rubble was an effective strategy when even the weakest fighters in the tournament could blow up the arena? I appreciate them trying to make #17 out to be some kind of tactician but that was a dumb strategy. And yet again with the rocks, if base Freeza (somehow) managed to trap Toppo, why did he waste his time throwing rocks and blasting him instead of just throwing him out of the arena like he did on Namek with Goku? Why is Jiren calling Goku and Vegeta "impudent bastards"? I want to say it feels out-of-character, after the way he keeps praising them both, but Jiren is just such a piece of boring cardboard that I can't even make that assertion. They claim that splitting up Goku and Vegeta is bad because then U11 would have the upperhand... how, exactly? If they split up Goku and Vegeta, then #17 and Freeza will fight Jiren alongside with Goku. U7 has the numerical advantage, how would splitting the fighters up be to THEIR detriment and not to U11's?

Hakai was just wasted completely. I won't dwell on the fact that any character touching Toppo should be destroyed (due to his Hakai aura), because Toppo obviously doesn't want to be DQ'd so he probably "turns it off" when attacking physically or when he's being attacked, but the fact that the Hakai balls can be destroyed by punches and Ki attacks is just stupid. Why bother going through the trouble of introducing this different kind of energy if it's no different from everything else? This problem already applied to last episode with Freeza surviving the Hakai sphere but it just gets amped up to absurdity in this one. "I'll give you an attack too powerful to destroy" is up there with "I'm too fast for your Time-Skip now" and "My power surpasses my own understanding." I shouldn't have to explain why Vegeta getting a power boost thinking of his family and friends is a bad thing. It was bad when he first transformed, it's bad now. Dragon Ball doesn't do power-ups like that and, when it does, they come from rage and/or amount to nothing.

The decision to use his self-destruction move was stupid. He did it against Boo because he was losing and, even if he was stronger, he'd have to blow him up so he wouldn't be able to regenerate. Here, he was winning and all he had to do was throw Toppo out of the arena. Why sacrifice your Ki and health over a fight that you had the upper-hand in? And the scene itself was terrible. You don't defeat a major antagonist with a rehash of a previous moment. That's not memorable, that's not new, that's not exciting. That's stupidly trying to piggyback on the old series' name and status without actually having the balls to go through and kill the character off like Z did. Let's throw a bit of character regression by switching Goku's name in his speech to Cabba's. Furthermore, the excuse they used was just incredibly stupid. He survived because he's stronger now than he was back in the Boo arc? Uh... his fucking attack is stronger now, too! Or are they trying to imply that Vegeta just eliminated Toppo with an attack that couldn't even kill Majin Boo? And, of course, Toppo amounted to nothing after his display last episode. You thought he was going to be defeated by some strategy after they stressed how he must have a weakness in his perfect defense and he needs to charge his attacks. But nope, he just gets overpowered.

The stamina thing is getting out of hand. If Goku wasn't enough, Freeza is back up this episode after getting absolutely destroyed in the last one (and his presence didn't serve any purpose, either. He's out of sight after his attack and isn't even present in the NEP). Vegeta, too, used all of his power, only to get back to full power next episode. I also think this needs to be stated, the episode was filled with an excessive amount of padding. 2 minutes at the start showing us the end of the previous episode plus 2 minutes of a flashback of Majin Vegeta's sacrifice. What's the point?

There were some things I appreciated, but they were plagued with problems also. I liked #17 being treated as a tactician as I said, but I've already highlighted the problems in his strategy. I like Jiren belittling Toppo, because I feel that one who holds justice at such a high level would have no respect for someone like Toppo who chose to cast it aside, but without the knowledge we have on his character from the manga, it feels contradictory with the way he's been portrayed so far and even out-of-character (as well as his little smirk at the end). I did like him one-shotting Goku though, since that's what he should be capable of doing and what he should have done all along. Thematically, I like the idea of Vegeta, who takes a more selfless pride on who he is and who he's surrounded by, defeating someone who chose to cast away his ideals for the sake of power, but, again, the way it was executed was awful.

I don't usually rant like this, but this was beyond terrible, it even surpasses episode 12. I didn't think the ToP could be this bad before, but it just keeps proving me wrong. I fear for the finale.

I have to agree with pretty much all of this. This episode was horrendous, the writing was horrific, storyboarding terrible, completely unmemorable. What a gigantic let down from last week which was incredible...

The callback was so bad, there was no emotion behind it or anything... ugh. I want to forget this episode existed.

NEP shows Vegeta is up again and at full power... wow. I've lost count as to how many times this stamina shit has been mentioned, and then completely dropped the next episode.
If Vegeta is back to full power next week and doesnt get eliminated next week, then I will agree with these kind of posts 100%

In order for episode 126 to have any meaning or be any good, Vegeta NEEDS to be eliminated in episode 127 to show that Vegeta DID make a sacrifice

If Vegeta is just back to full power again and fighting in the tournament like if nothing, THEN I AGREE that episode 126 was completely contrived bullshit
Last edited by ZenkaiBoosts on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by SirTorra » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:10 am

Most disappointing episode of the ToP by far. Full of asspulls and nonsense. Toppo is the definition of a wasted character. I take it back, disappointing doesn't even begin to describe this episode.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:10 am

Kinokima wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Artorias wrote:I can't wait for people to STILL complain when Vegeta inevitably gets eliminated by Jiren. Toei has given us more Vegeta fan service and shine than I ever thought possible in this arc. I think everyone should be grateful that he just essentially single handedly defeated a God of Destruction. He's done his part, please don't whine when he goes out.
Yep. They should be grateful. Vegeta should've been eliminated a long time ago. They even eliminated GOHAN the son of Goku before Vegeta. Up to this point, they have given Vegeta more shine then even Goku himself, and that's unacceptable when Goku is the main character. Goku hasn't even had 1 huge win yet in Super. It's insanity. Vegeta has gotten more then enough so I too don't want to hear anything when Jiren eliminates Vegeta next week. Enough is enoygh. Vegeta's arc is wrapped up and Vegeta got his farewell epic moment. Now be done with it

I am not going to whine when Vegeta goes out lol. That doesn’t mean I won’t be sad because the show is ending but I am happy with what I got at the same time.

But you can always tell when people aren’t Vegeta fans. This was literally Vegeta’s first major victory ever but he got more shine than Goku? Really

I am thankful for Super for treating Vegeta so well (better than I could ever hope) but they aren’t treating Goku badly. He got just as many eliminations as Vegeta and also already defeated a major antagonist this arc. Are we forgetting Kefla.

He also got UI and I am sure will defeat Jiren. And had moments with almost everyone on U7 (as he should of course)

But apparently because Vegeta finally won a major fight & got a new transformation he is getting too much shine. And need I remind people he actually didn’t get much focus until this last part of the arc.
"And need I remind people he actually didn’t get much focus until this last part of the arc." That's what's been so bad about this. This came out of nowhere with absolutely no build-up. At least with Goku and Gohan, there was build-up. This is pure fan service from Toei for Vegeta fans. Enjoy it while it lasts because he's about to get embarassed by the amount of power Jiren and Goku will be putting out by the end of this arc.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:11 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:So many posts of "what's up with Jiren suddenly thrashing Toppo?"

In episode 125, Jiren was disappointed that Toppo chose "God of destruction powers" over his duty of justice to the Pride Troopers.

Jiren is some one whos all about morals and justice. Jiren is Dragon Ball's Superman

So Jiren was basically like, "serves you right choosing against justice, that's what you get Toppo, now I'm going to show you how it's done while remaining true to the essence of the Pride Troopers"

It boggles my mind how many can not seem to understand this
I understand and pointed it out in my post. It doesn't work because Jiren has almost no characterization in the anime. It only works with the knowledge of his character from the manga.
You dont need to know about Jiren's backstory TO KNOW that in episode 125 Jiren was disappointed that Toppo chose destruction over justice (in order to survive). Episode 126 PLAYED OFF THAT - events that happened in episode 125 in the anime.

You just simply have needed to watched episode 125 and been paying attention

"Ok Jiren is disappointed if not angry that Toppo chose destruction power over justice and pride troopers"

If you simply saw THAT, then you understood when watching today...

"Ok, that's why Jiren threw shade at Toppo"

There really is no validity to this "criticism"

If you didn't personally like it on a subjective level, fine, that's your opinion, that's Ok, but state it as an opinion, don't ever try and say it was a flaw or bad writing. People in here need to be able to distinguish between whats an actual flaw vs something you just didnt personally like

I LOVED Jiren throwing shade at Toppo and basically saying, "this is how you do it while remaining true to justice" It was logical. It was built off episode 125.

Look, I hate Vegeta. And I'm not just saying that. Read my post history.

I agree with everyone in here saying that Vegeta has gotten too much shine in Super and that his power ups were iillogical...but I still thought this episode was bad ass and epic...and I'm happy that we can finally move on from Vegeta - and are one step closer to UI Goku vs Jiren

When Jiren said "so you've made up your mind, Toppo" there was nothing that implies he was disappointed or anything. He just said it normally and calmly.
basically saying, "this is how you do it while remaining true to justice" It was logical.
This is all coming from you head, why say it as a fact? or can you read fictional characters' mind now. Anime Jiren was never about justice, he wasn't shown to care about anything related to it before. Jiren said Toppo was pathetic because he lost, not because casting aside his justice whatsoever. Before Toppo lost, he was still treating him as a teammate and let him take on Vegeta

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:13 am

I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by precita » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:14 am

Kaiosama wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote: Yep. They should be grateful. Vegeta should've been eliminated a long time ago. They even eliminated GOHAN the son of Goku before Vegeta. Up to this point, they have given Vegeta more shine then even Goku himself, and that's unacceptable when Goku is the main character. Goku hasn't even had 1 huge win yet in Super. It's insanity. Vegeta has gotten more then enough so I too don't want to hear anything when Jiren eliminates Vegeta next week. Enough is enoygh. Vegeta's arc is wrapped up and Vegeta got his farewell epic moment. Now be done with it

I am not going to whine when Vegeta goes out lol. That doesn’t mean I won’t be sad because the show is ending but I am happy with what I got at the same time.

But you can always tell when people aren’t Vegeta fans. This was literally Vegeta’s first major victory ever but he got more shine than Goku? Really

I am thankful for Super for treating Vegeta so well (better than I could ever hope) but they aren’t treating Goku badly. He got just as many eliminations as Vegeta and also already defeated a major antagonist this arc. Are we forgetting Kefla.

He also got UI and I am sure will defeat Jiren. And had moments with almost everyone on U7 (as he should of course)

But apparently because Vegeta finally won a major fight & got a new transformation he is getting too much shine. And need I remind people he actually didn’t get much focus until this last part of the arc.
"And need I remind people he actually didn’t get much focus until this last part of the arc." That's what's been so bad about this. This came out of nowhere with absolutely no build-up. At least with Goku and Gohan, there was build-up. This is pure fan service from Toei for Vegeta fans. Enjoy it while it lasts because he's about to get embarassed by the amount of power Jiren and Goku will be putting out by the end of this arc.
Vegeta's build up was in the entire arc and Super Saiyan Blue sparkles happened 3 eps ago.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:14 am

Asura wrote:I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?
They forgot his scars again.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Turambar » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:15 am

Asura wrote:
Turambar wrote:Wow. I stayed away the last couple of weeks, expecting this place to be pretty toxic, and came in this week expecting the opposite. My poor expectations.
What's with this talk of being "toxic"? Because people talk about their disdain for an episode that makes it toxic? I never see any of this toxicity that people refer to.
Just my interpretation of the word. I came in here off of a high of what I thought was an appropriately epic episode, and was immediately met with comments that started to slowly drain (poison) my enthusiasm. Vegeta got his first big win, and the only logic hole will occur in the next episode with him being fighting fit again. However, that isn't something that has warranted so much criticism the dozens of other times that it has happened in the tournament.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Amir » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:15 am

Asura wrote:I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?
What about the dialogue between Vegeta and Toppo especially after Toppo mocked Vegeta's saiyan promise? I thought that was awesome.
And the fighting, storyboard, Vegeta's final explosion vs Toppo's hakai in full power? It had pretty good voice acting screams and it was really epic.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:18 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:This might have been better if Vegeta's resolve moment happened here instead of back in 123, the simple acknowledgment of his family alongside his promise to Cabba made it that much more effective, plus it would have been spaced out so as not to get two heroic speeches back-to-back like in 122/123. Also, trying to homage the legendary Majin Vegeta sacrifice with ToP Vegeta is like getting a spoiled fat kid to run against Usain Bolt in the 100m sprints.

Yeah, this was dreadful. No good character writing whatsoever. Toppo and Jiren both came across as unlikeable wankers; there seemed to be a theme throughout this episode of holding onto your principles, how Toppo was wrong to give up his, while Vegeta was right to hold onto his and that's why he was able to win. Vegeta mocks Toppo for giving up justice (despite having never heard him say it before), Toppo mocks Vegeta for caring about Saiyans, Jiren insults Toppo for losing, then praises Vegeta for winning without giving anything up. Aren't you two meant to be superheroes?

The core problem with that idea is "justice" and "pride" are such nebulous concepts that we're being asked to care about. I can get behind emotional outbursts fueling powerups, that's Anime 101 and Dragon Ball practically invented it. The problem is, there's no emotion here. Characters are literally just Describing How They Feel. "I No Longer Feel Justice, Therefore I Am Strong". "I Feel Pride Therefore I Am Stronger". I've seen people accuse the Tournament of Power of feeling like bad pro wrestling before, this is the first time I've really felt it.

Not to mention the issue of 17 and Freeza still being in despite how last episode went, Vegeta still being in despite supposedly sacrificing himself (and any tension that left in the arc). I fear for the finale. Please come back Ultra Instinct, please save this show.
It wasn’t really Justice vs pride but a battle of philosophies not about who is stronger. Toppo threw away everything of who he was to survive and Vegeta said that is nonsense I don’t need to throw away who I am because that’s where I get my strength.

And if you recall this is exactly what he says to Jiren in 122. I may be Arrogant but I can never throw away who I am.

I am not saying the episode didn’t have flaws of logic here and there but I loved the concept of two opposing philosophies going at each other. Toppo thought he needed to throw away everything he believed (his Justice) to be true to survive that only survival mattered. But Vegeta proved to him that this isn’t true. Vegeta held onto his family, his promise and his pride. I guess the episode asked in this fight for survival can you remain true to yourself and your ideals and still survive. Toppo thought no but in the end he was wrong.
It's a nice principle, but the way it was executed was so mediocre. We never got to see the conflict Toppo was having about his philosophy, only the end result. And we still don't know enough about Jiren in general to explain why he'd be so belittling of Toppo. There could be a reason there, but we can only fan wank or go with the manga characterisation. As far as the show is concerned, Jiren's just a dick.

And Vegeta getting another big speech so soon after the last TWO he got against Jiren is a big reason I'm so annoyed with it, and him in this arc in general. As I said, if this had been the first time, it might have worked. It also doesn't help that he has no actual dynamic with Toppo, so a battle of philosophies fall flat. The only other time they fought, all it produced was some schoolyard banter about being the second-strongest. And he stumbled into the fight with him here basically by accident.

Since people have been bringing this up as a negative comparison, can I talk about how episode 66 did the whole idea better? Like, Trunks facing down Zamasu at the end of that was the right way to do an emotional powerup and a battle of philosophies. We saw how desperate the two of them where getting, the entire arc had built up Trunks' role as a symbol of hope and Zamasu as his personal nemesis, and then at the end he pulls it off in the climax with everybody backing him up. That's how ya do it.

See I don’t agree. I think Zamasu was a better antagonist than Toppo because he felt more like a real threat. I do agree with the criticism that any threat we felt from Toppo in 125 kind of disappeared with him being eliminated one episode later. So I do agree with the criticisms that this all feels too rushed taking away some of the emotional weight.


However Zamasu’s philosophy never made much sense to me. It was just evil the world would be better off without mortals. Zamasu was just insane in the end (don’t get me wrong him and Black are still my favorite villains)

The difference here is Toppo’s philosophy wasn’t really evil. And I can relate it to the real world about throwing away everything you are to survive. I actually wish they played up more of Toppo as a tragic character because I think him throwing away his Justice was a very sad moment.

Toppo’s philosophy was very nihilistic. That nothing has meaning except for Survival whereas for Vegeta it’s the opposite that there is meaning & things he will hold onto therefore he will survive. To me it was actually a scene that said quite a lot (a lot more than Vegeta just remembers his family and Cabba again although that was nice too). But it’s the opposing philosophy behind their view points that made the moment stand out to me. What is the point of survival if you throw away everything of who you are? Are you really surviving then? And that is why I feel Vegeta won (and maybe even why he lived) because he understood that there is more to life then just surviving.
Last edited by Kinokima on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Turambar » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:19 am

Amir wrote:
Asura wrote:I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?
What about the dialogue between Vegeta and Toppo especially after Toppo mocked Vegeta's saiyan promise? I thought that was awesome.
I think that this is an important part of the episode that people are overlooking as they criticize everything. I have seen Vegeta's character development mocked for weeks in these threads, but this episode really showed who Vegeta is, and should put those arguments to rest.

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