Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:20 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:
dnavenom wrote:You know Goku has two sons :) right? Remind me where was he when they grew up? Let me give you some hints:
A) dead - having fun in the afterlife
B) on another planet - learning new techniques
C)working the field while secretly training
Was Gohan a better fighter, wile he was parented by Piccolo? Yes. Did his life in the city without a male parent made him a lazy bastard (I`m Gohan fan!) Yes. Goku trained Gohan for 1 year and he surpassed all Z warriors (Cell saga). Goku didn`t want to get resurrected after that, he decided to stay dead and have fun. Gohan lost his example and you know what became of him later. Is Goku a bad Father? Most likely so. Is Goku a bad husband? Yes. What is Goku`s motivation? Fighting. DB>DBZ>DBS no development! Same character forever. If you are not bored by this, I dunno what to say to you.

Goku made Gohan leader of the U7 team. We all knew Goku was the real leader. When did he leave Gohan decide what the team should do? Never. Did he try to help his son get some authority? He was the first to " go fight strong opponents" on his own.

Was Vegeta bad with future Trunks in the HBTChamber? He was. Was he ever bad with small Trunks? No. Did he kiss his wife :) ? Yes. That`s pretty important, otherwise the wife becomes like Chichi! Did he admit Goku was better in the end of Z? He did. Did he give up? He didn`t. Is he a better father and husband than Goku? Of course. Goten didn`t even know his father :) for some time.

What makes a human, human? Responsibilities, sacrifices, enduring the sometimes boring everyday life, family, goals, trying to better yourself wile doing everything else. Goku is a good fighter, but he`s bad in everything else that makes a human, human. Vegeta, Piccolo far better humans than him and way better characters.
I have no stake in this argument but you really shouldn't cherry pick like this. You bring up everything bad about Goku in Z but ignore everything from Vegeta? If we're judging Goku and Vegeta now from their past actions you can't ignore that Vegeta was a rampant murderer, gave zero shits about Bulma and Trunks, which showed when was going to let both of them die in an explosion, pissing off his Future son, assaulted Future Trunks, hit his son out of anger after he managed to land a blow on him, and never held Trunks once in his entire life until he decided to bid the world farewell.

Sorry but I'd take Goku over that.
I agree with you that Goku is not a bad father compared to Vegeta but why bring up Vegeta in the past either? The whole point is Vegeta has changed into a better person Who now loves his family.


Also Vegeta did not hit Trunks out of anger when he hit him. It was a reflex because he was surprised when Trunks hit him. It happened very quickly and he doesn’t show any signs of anger. And when Trunks cries he promises to take him to the park. Otherwise everything you said about Vegeta is absolutely true. But then again I don’t think we should hold things against Vegeta for how he was In the past when he clearly grew into a better person which is the point of his character.

Also I think that is why we get way more moments of Vegeta caring for his family now. It’s not that Vegeta cares more about his family than Goku. Of course Goku loves his family and there are tons of moments throughout Z and even Super (I love the scene of Goku & Pan on the rooftop especially) that show Goku loves his family. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t paying attention.

But when we see scenes of how Vegeta loves his family it’s also character development because we see how much he has changed. Of course I don’t need those moments to know Vegeta loves them (just like I don’t need moments for Goku, Gohan, And Kuririn ) but they make me happy all the same to see how far Vegeta has come.


Anyways The Who is a better father Goku or Vegeta is pointless. Why does one of them have to be a better father? I don’t think either are perfect but both love their families and their families love them. End of story.
Last edited by Kinokima on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Brettjr25 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:21 pm

chickensguys wrote:I don't get the hate about this episode. I thought it was in the top 25 percent of episodes for sure. We get a little more about Jiren's characters unveiled, he seems to have high expectations for this friends. Vegeta gets the limelight and actually accomplishes something. The explanation given for why the final explosion didn't kill him seemed perfectly adequate. You can square it however you like, he didn't go all out, he has gotten stronger and could control it better. The animation was quite good on the whole as well.
I guess my biggest problem is basically that they sacrificed Toppo for a Vegeta moment, Toppos powerup, the hakai ability, the momentum of the fight etc etc was all sacrificed for a Vegeta moment. Compare that to something like Vegeta vs Zarbon, where Vegeta was more skilled and whooped on him until he revealed his transformation and beat Vegeta bad. Vegeta managed to escape recover and they fight again but Vegeta talks about how. saiyans power up after recovering and they have a great fight ending with Vegeta punching right through him and blasting him to pieces.

That versus, now I have a speech and which grants me the ability to nullify anything that makes sense, so I win. Makes the fight seem very unearned and comes off as just fanservice and shitty on one thing to make the other smell like roses.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:25 pm

I enjoy this week's episode. I'm glad that Freeza is not out for once.
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by gofishus » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:28 pm

Android 17 exceeded a lot of expectations but I kind of wished Gohan and 17 switched places...

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:35 pm

Kinokima wrote:Not sure where he gets his statistics from (he posts them every week) but whereever he does Japanese fans actually enjoyed this episode more than last week’s


https://twitter.com/kenxyro/status/960205231907893248


Also this poll of 800 votes has majority liking it by a lot

https://twitter.com/govetaxv/status/960005201703743489


This doesn’t prove the episode is good or bad but it is definitely not universally hated as this thread will have you believe.
What I Love about this Poll is that is shows as far back as I can Go that Episode 118 that I think was the Best Episode of the Arc is right now the 2nd Highest Just behind Episode 121!

Yea I take it with Grains of salt as always but at 80.3% For Episode 118, that is Nice to See. :wink:
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:37 pm

One of the problems i've had with this tournament is how disconnected the episodes feel. This is an episode where it just feels like their was no communication between writers of the episodes. The first half could have been cut out completely, since, in the previous episode Toppo had already beaten Frieza within an inch of his life, so what was the point of having him come back not even a minute later (in-Universe) only to disappear again? We also had 17 put up a futile effort at defending himself against Toppo, but this was something that happened last episode and ended up feeling completely superfluous.

The second half with its callback to DragonBall Z, while it was cool i guess, it kinda just serves to underline a few of DragonBall Super's problems

1. The show is just a shameless cashgrab, that will take every opportunity it can to invoke nostalgia in the older viewers preventing the show from having any real identity of it's own
2. Didnt we already go through this whole shtick with Vegeta? Why are we getting it again? Vegeta during the Tournament of Power has felt like he regressed back to his Cell arc self or near it, now we're having him develop his character back to his Buu arc self? Next thing you know Goku will suggest fusion, to which Vegeta expresses his disgust at being one entity with that smelly Kakarot before realizing that it's the only way to save earth and the ones he loves... I'm not a fan of this familiar retreading of character progression like Goku, Gohan and Krillin have gone through. I mean atleast GT had Vegeta be the one that suggests it.

Other than that, I guess the action was good, so it wasn't all bad. Not as good as last week but decent I suppose. I didn't like how Vegeta just completely trivialized Toppo, but ignoring that the action was satisfactory.

Also i've only just recently started watching this show consistently again and over the past few episodes i've noticed some new tracks. Is it just me or is the soundtrack a lot better now?
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by dnavenom » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:44 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:
dnavenom wrote:You know Goku has two sons :) right? Remind me where was he when they grew up? Let me give you some hints:
A) dead - having fun in the afterlife
B) on another planet - learning new techniques
C)working the field while secretly training
Was Gohan a better fighter, wile he was parented by Piccolo? Yes. Did his life in the city without a male parent made him a lazy bastard (I`m Gohan fan!) Yes. Goku trained Gohan for 1 year and he surpassed all Z warriors (Cell saga). Goku didn`t want to get resurrected after that, he decided to stay dead and have fun. Gohan lost his example and you know what became of him later. Is Goku a bad Father? Most likely so. Is Goku a bad husband? Yes. What is Goku`s motivation? Fighting. DB>DBZ>DBS no development! Same character forever. If you are not bored by this, I dunno what to say to you.

Goku made Gohan leader of the U7 team. We all knew Goku was the real leader. When did he leave Gohan decide what the team should do? Never. Did he try to help his son get some authority? He was the first to " go fight strong opponents" on his own.

Was Vegeta bad with future Trunks in the HBTChamber? He was. Was he ever bad with small Trunks? No. Did he kiss his wife :) ? Yes. That`s pretty important, otherwise the wife becomes like Chichi! Did he admit Goku was better in the end of Z? He did. Did he give up? He didn`t. Is he a better father and husband than Goku? Of course. Goten didn`t even know his father :) for some time.

What makes a human, human? Responsibilities, sacrifices, enduring the sometimes boring everyday life, family, goals, trying to better yourself wile doing everything else. Goku is a good fighter, but he`s bad in everything else that makes a human, human. Vegeta, Piccolo far better humans than him and way better characters.
I have no stake in this argument but you really shouldn't cherry pick like this. You bring up everything bad about Goku in Z but ignore everything from Vegeta? If we're judging Goku and Vegeta now from their past actions you can't ignore that Vegeta was a rampant murderer, gave zero shits about Bulma and Trunks, which showed when was going to let both of them die in an explosion, pissing off his Future son, assaulted Future Trunks, hit his son out of anger after he managed to land a blow on him, and never held Trunks once in his entire life until he decided to bid the world farewell.

Sorry but I'd take Goku over that.
You actually didn`t read everything, but let me repeat myself.
Goku in DBZ was a good guy and a model for us all, just until he left Gohan to handle Cell. Which led eventually to his sacrifice later in the Arc. After Cell`s Arc, Goku`s character started to sink. I would even argue why Goku didn`t just instant transmit before Cell died, but that`s another topic. He preferred to stay in the underworld and train, before raising his second son. Goten didn`t know his father. I don`t remember how old he was, when Goku came back for a day, to participate in the tournament! Not see his family! Goku in super kept the Buu arc line. Not caring about Chichi or Goten, nor about his Grandchild Pan. Did he even visit just to see them and not just to ask Gohan for the tournament?

Vegeta in DBZ was a really bad guy. He was arrogant, evil, self-centered and everything else you can think of. Super Vegeta could have ended imperfect Cell, but...arrogance, it`s not pride as much as arrogance. His Majin deeds were horrible, he was the main reason Buu was awakened. Until he sacrificed and admitted to himself that Goku is the better warrior, Vegeta was a joke. After his pride broke in the Buu arc he became another man. He grew up you can say. In Super Vegeta was never evil, nor arrogant in the way he was up until the Cell saga. He is just a father and as every accomplished person, looks for someone to pass his knowledge to. I don`t know why they made that person Cabba. It`s a mistake for me, but Trunks seems to be too young still.

Vegeta`s character scale goes up from DBZ>DBS. Goku`s go down or if it`s not going down, than it just stays on the same level as the end of Cell`s saga. Goku`s character does not progress in any way. I hate Naruto, but the way they did the transition to Boruto (his son I think) is probably the best way to do this. If I have to choose a favorite character that would be Cell arc`s Gohan. But since that`s not an option, the next best thing is Vegeta.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:56 pm

Artorias wrote:Seeing a lot of people liking the IDEAS presented here, but ignoring the actual execution of it all. There was nothing deep or impressive about Vegeta's speech or actions in this episode. It was all vapid nonsense. Pay attention to what's actually being presented in front of you rather than going on about some idealized version of what the show was going for, but utterly failed to actually achieve. This was a parody of an actual emotional moment.
So much this. I feel like people like the IDEAS or CONCEPTS behind the episode’s writing yet completely ignore the execution. Vegeta risking it all and possibly blowing himself up to defeat a God of Destruction, calling back to the Majin Vegeta moment? Woah, sounds “epic” man. Sounds like “Vegeta fans will be happy”. Sounds like it’s a “very important turning point” for Vegeta who makes a speech about pride. Now he’s not just fighting for himself, but for other people!

Except we saw all of that before Super even began in the Buu arc, we’ve been getting these vapid and completely meaningless speeches about pride basically every other episode at this point, and just because the rest of this idea sounds good on paper doesn’t at all mean you should be excited for it regardless of the execution. I can’t count the amount of times here in this thread I’ve seen the word “epic” thrown around. Yeah, it’s a pretty epic idea, but the execution wasn’t at all epic. It was rushed, it was a rehash of what we’ve already seen before, it felt pointless in the context of the fight (Vegeta was already winning here, whereas against Buu he had no choice and was far outmatched).

People are so blinded by the idea that Vegeta beating Toppo in such an “epic” way automatically makes the execution good, but it simply wasnt. The writing was so laughably weak and this felt more like (yet another) fan service callback for no reason, and it’s pretty laughably bad when put up against the thing it was actually calling back to, the Majin Vegeta explosion.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:58 pm

Asura wrote:
Artorias wrote:Seeing a lot of people liking the IDEAS presented here, but ignoring the actual execution of it all. There was nothing deep or impressive about Vegeta's speech or actions in this episode. It was all vapid nonsense. Pay attention to what's actually being presented in front of you rather than going on about some idealized version of what the show was going for, but utterly failed to actually achieve. This was a parody of an actual emotional moment.
So much this. I feel like people like the IDEAS or CONCEPTS behind the episode’s writing yet completely ignore the execution. Vegeta risking it all and possibly blowing himself up to defeat a God of Destruction, calling back to the Majin Vegeta moment? Woah, sounds “epic” man. Sounds like “Vegeta fans will be happy”. Sounds like it’s a “very important turning point” for Vegeta who makes a speech about pride. Now he’s not just fighting for himself, but for other people!

Except we saw all of that before Super even began in the Buu arc, we’ve been getting these vapid and completely meaningless speeches about pride basically every other episode at this point, and just because the rest of this idea sounds good on paper doesn’t at all mean you should be excited for it regardless of the execution. I can’t count the amount of times here in this thread I’ve seen the word “epic” thrown around. Yeah, it’s a pretty epic idea, but the execution wasn’t at all epic. It was rushed, it was a rehash of what we’ve already seen before, it felt pointless in the context of the fight (Vegeta was already winning here, whereas against Buu he had no choice and was far outmatched).

People are so blinded by the idea that Vegeta beating Toppo in such an “epic” way automatically makes the execution good, but it simply wasnt. The writing was so laughably weak and this felt more like (yet another) fan service callback for no reason, and it’s pretty laughably bad when put up against the thing it was actually calling back to, the Majin Vegeta explosion.
Exactly. And it makes it all pointless when Vegeta is back to full power going SS Bluer in the next episode

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Gig » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:59 pm

I don't know if someone already theorized it... but do you think it is possible that the reason (or one of the reasons) Toppo's "hakais" do not work as expected against Vegeta's attacks is because, unlike 17 and Frieza, SSB is using GOD KI instead of regular ki?

On a side note, I'm one of those thinking that being able to beat an apprentice GoD does not automatically mean you can also beat a millenary GoD.

PS: waiting weeks week to know if 17 will give some of his ki to Vegeta (although it's a bit strange that in theory androids' infinite power is different than ki, but often seems to work like it).

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:03 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote: Exactly. And it makes it all pointless when Vegeta is back to full power going SS Bluer in the next episode
You should probably delete your post in last week's episode thread and post it here instead.
Hurry! while there's still time :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:05 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote: Exactly. And it makes it all pointless when Vegeta is back to full power going SS Bluer in the next episode
You should probably delete your post in last week's episode thread and post it here instead.
Hurry! while there's still time :lol:
Whoops! Thanks for that. :lol:

Ok did anyone else laugh when Jiren roundhoused kicked Goku mid sentence after Toppo lost

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:20 pm

Asura wrote:
Artorias wrote:Seeing a lot of people liking the IDEAS presented here, but ignoring the actual execution of it all. There was nothing deep or impressive about Vegeta's speech or actions in this episode. It was all vapid nonsense. Pay attention to what's actually being presented in front of you rather than going on about some idealized version of what the show was going for, but utterly failed to actually achieve. This was a parody of an actual emotional moment.
So much this. I feel like people like the IDEAS or CONCEPTS behind the episode’s writing yet completely ignore the execution. Vegeta risking it all and possibly blowing himself up to defeat a God of Destruction, calling back to the Majin Vegeta moment? Woah, sounds “epic” man. Sounds like “Vegeta fans will be happy”. Sounds like it’s a “very important turning point” for Vegeta who makes a speech about pride. Now he’s not just fighting for himself, but for other people!

Except we saw all of that before Super even began in the Buu arc, we’ve been getting these vapid and completely meaningless speeches about pride basically every other episode at this point, and just because the rest of this idea sounds good on paper doesn’t at all mean you should be excited for it regardless of the execution. I can’t count the amount of times here in this thread I’ve seen the word “epic” thrown around. Yeah, it’s a pretty epic idea, but the execution wasn’t at all epic. It was rushed, it was a rehash of what we’ve already seen before, it felt pointless in the context of the fight (Vegeta was already winning here, whereas against Buu he had no choice and was far outmatched).

People are so blinded by the idea that Vegeta beating Toppo in such an “epic” way automatically makes the execution good, but it simply wasnt. The writing was so laughably weak and this felt more like (yet another) fan service callback for no reason, and it’s pretty laughably bad when put up against the thing it was actually calling back to, the Majin Vegeta explosion.
Yes I enjoyed that Vegeta finally got a win but this was in no way just a rehash of Final Atonement. And that’s why I liked it.


Vegeta wasn’t trying to sacrifice himself and that’s the whole point. He never once says this is the end and I am risking it all on this final attack. Piccolo is the only one who mistakes what Vegeta is doing. But if you pay attention to what Vegeta says he is not trying to give up his life. I am not saying there wasn’t a risk to what Vegeta was trying to do but I think there is evidence that he believed he would succeed and live. It wasn’t an episode about sacrifice like Final Atonement it was an episode about survival. It was Toppo’s survival vs Vegeta’s and what it actual means to survive. And Vegeta sacrificing himself would have missed the entire point.

Also Vegeta thinking of his family and Cabba wasn’t just him thinking of things he was fighting for but things he needed to win and live for. Cabba is the perfect counterpoint. Because Vegeta keeps mentioning that promise to Cabba. How could he have kept that promise to Cabba if he had any intention of dying?


Anyways if you didn’t get any meaning from the episode that’s perfectly fine. People interpret things differently after all. But I don’t like that people discount the meaning I got from the episode. Yes I liked the Vegeta finally beat a villain but I am not so shallow to only enjoy the episode for that. I enjoyed it for its themes and how Vegeta to me has actually grown even since Final Atonement since I dong think sacrificing yourself is the only noble action one can take. I don’t see anything vapid about this episode and I am not blinded because I got something out of this episode that others didn’t.

And yeah I do like Final Atonement more because in terms of significance to Vegeta’s character arc well is hard to beat that episode but I still see new growth for Vegeta here. It’s definitely not just the same thing again at all.


As for Vegeta being back to full power next episode I admit that is bad writing but I’d just like to wait and see how they handle it. Anyways logically this episode had some flaws but thematically it was a strong episode. I can’t make people like what they don’t but I don’t like the idea that people are “blinded by epicness” because they see value in something other people don’t.
Last edited by Kinokima on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:33 pm

Things I Liked:

-The action in the second half of the episode was quite good.
-Toppo's degradation into thinking of nothing but survival was cool, albeit short-lived.
-Vegeta had some pretty good character writing/moments.
-Jiren finally got another badass moment, sixteen episodes later.

Things I'm Mixed On:

-I appreciate Toppo's character, but it was so rushed that it left a lot to be desired. This was basically Frost 2.0 for me.
-I like the more tactical approach to Super, but 17 and Freeza's strategy of "use rocks" was... underwhelming.
-I can get behind a good callback, but re-using a little over three minutes of footage (some of which was from Z) gives the impression of rushed production. Rushed production is almost never a good thing.

Things I Disliked:

-While Vegeta's character writing was mostly good and Toppo's writing was good but rushed, the rest of the writing was quite bad. 17 seemed to have regressed in thinking since last episode, Freeza showed up randomly and acted like a complete idiot, and the final part of the fight boiling down to "Vegeta remembers his family and wins through the power of love" reeked of anime cliches. Everyone values writing differently, but I tend to rank it higher in my priorities, so I found this very disappointing. Also, the NEP showing Vegeta in his ultimate form again after supposedly being "out of energy" is making me wonder what purpose stamina has in Super (a recurring issue, unfortunately).
-Speaking of Freeza, he seemed wasted this episode. I feel like last week's writer and this week's writer didn't really communicate with each other. He was wrecked by Toppo and seemingly unconscious last episode yet maybe 20 in-universe seconds later he's back up and being a fool. He also somehow performed better against Toppo this week than he did last week despite being tired and not in his golden form. Again, this boils down to subpar writing.
-Is there some clause in Toriyama's manuscript that says "Vegeta must use Final Flash every episode starting at this point?" Because it's getting old. Real old.
-The first half wasn't as entertaining as the second half. Spamming mass ki blasts was one of my least favorite parts of Z, and I got tired of it pretty quickly this episode.


Overall, this episode wasn't that bad but I felt it was very underwhelming. The biggest hurdle this week was the writing, which wasn't even close to the same level of quality as last week. Perhaps that's the bigger problem: last week was so good that this week was bound to be disappointing, especially when it drops the ball in certain areas. Super seems to have a tendency to have great build-up but a lackluster resolution (Goku Black, The Zamasu Arc ending, Frost, etc.). I don't know, maybe I'm just a little jaded because I really liked last week's episode and this one left a lot to be desired. Regardless, I rank this probably in the middle of the tournament episodes, leaning closer to the bottom end.

NEP has me worried, especially with Vegeta seemingly already recovered, so we'll see how that goes.
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:41 pm

Remember how the ring was super decimated last episode to the point where everyone was fighting by jumping from floating rock to floating rock? Guess they forgot about it all on this episode, because while you do see some rocks floating in the background, everyone is magically fighting on the main stage again!

The uniqueness of the fighting arena is done away with this episode. Toppo's intimidating, god-like presence is done away with this episode. Freeza getting the living shit beaten out of him is done away with this episode (despite spending like 2 minutes of showing how the last episode ended with Freeza getting destroyed, he's now back up perfectly fine minutes later in this episode). 17's tactician mindset is done away with this episode (collapsing fucking rocks on a GoD is not a strategy).

And most importantly, all emotion was done away with in this episode. They tried to make Vegeta's "sacrifice" moment just as special and emotional as the first time it happened against Buu, and even though Vegeta wasn't intending on sacrificing himself here, there was still zero emotion behind all of it. His speech was the same shit we heard for the past 3 episodes. Like, he's literally just giving the same speech over and over again. The final explosion attack came out of nowhere and was completely unnecessary. The only reason it even existed was to do YET ANOTHER CALLBACK TO Z. We're getting one once a week now whether we like it or not. Vegeta was already winning and canceling out every single one of Toppo's attacks with just his punches. Why did he even need to do this attack? Why did we need to hear the same speech again? Is it just because whenever Vegeta makes a speech that automatically makes the moment "epic"? Everyone who thought this speech about Cabba and protecting his family did so much for Vegeta's character, do you literally ignore or forget the speeches he makes in the past whenever he makes a new speech? Because if you've been paying attention you'll notice he has said all of this shit in previous speeches before. It does nothing to build on his character, all of his words are meaningless because we've already heard them before. This episode does nothing for Vegeta as a character besides give him a win that honestly didn't even feel deserved. Vegeta vs Toppo should have been one of the premiere fights of the tournament, with the advantage heavily thrown in the GoD's favor, yet they only fight for about half an episode here, and Vegeta curbstomps him.

I honestly have so much more to say about how much of a failure this episode was and how it might be one of the most disappointing episodes of the tournament, but I don't feel like typing out a massive rant and break-down of it. It just dropped the ball in every single aspect, with every single character, in every single moment, and killed all of the tension that was found in last week's episode. Remember how most of us were thinking last week "Woah, there's some actual tension here now. Jiren is unstoppable by himself but now Toppo is a God of Destruction? How will our heroes stand a chance against that?"

The biggest takeaway here is the person who wrote this episode was also responsible for Episode 119. That alone should tell you all you need to know as to why this episode's writing was such a disorienting disaster. Sorry Hisao Ayumu, but you are a god awful writer. Please choose a different profession, or write for a show you're more comfortable with or something, I don't know. The fact that you have only written two episodes for Super and both have been possibly the worst written episodes in the entire series should tell you all you need to know as to why you should never be working on anything Dragon Ball related again.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:44 pm

Kinokima wrote:Yes I enjoyed that Vegeta finally got a win but this was in no way just a rehash of Final Atonement. And that’s why I liked it.


Vegeta wasn’t trying to sacrifice himself and that’s the whole point. He never once says this is the end and I am risking it all on this final attack. Piccolo is the only one who mistakes what Vegeta is doing. But if you pay attention to what Vegeta says he is not trying to give up his life. I am not saying there wasn’t a risk to what Vegeta was trying to do but I think there is evidence that he believed he would succeed and live. It wasn’t an episode about sacrifice like Final Atonement it was an episode about survival. It was Toppo’s survival vs Vegeta’s and what it actual means to survive. And Vegeta sacrificing himself would have missed the entire point.

Also Vegeta thinking of his family and Cabba wasn’t just him thinking of things he was fighting for but things he needed to win and live for. Cabba is the perfect counterpoint. Because Vegeta keeps mentioning that promise to Cabba. How could he have kept that promise to Cabba if he had any intention of dying?


Anyways if you didn’t get any meaning from the episode that’s perfectly fine. People interpret things differently after all. But I don’t like that people discount the meaning I got from the episode. Yes I liked the Vegeta finally beat a villain but I am not so shallow to only enjoy the episode for that. I enjoyed it for its themes and how Vegeta to me has actually grown even since Final Atonement since I dong think sacrificing yourself is the only noble action one can take. I don’t see anything vapid about this episode and I am not blinded because I got something out of this episode that others didn’t.

And yeah I do like Final Atonement more because in terms of significance to Vegeta’s character arc well is hard to beat that episode but I still see new growth for Vegeta here. It’s definitely not just the same thing again at all.


As for Vegeta being back to full power next episode I admit that is bad writing but I’d just like to wait and see how they handle it. Anyways logically this episode had some flaws but thematically it was a strong episode. I can’t make people like what they don’t but I don’t like the idea that people are “blinded by epicness” because they see value in something other people don’t.
Took the words out of my mouth, good sir/madam/squid.

I liked how the ideas actually played out, as I felt they provided an interesting contrast to expectations and played off of each other well. We see some good payoff that compounds just how far the character of Vegeta as come, as well as an excellent role reversal with Toppo, since Vegeta is usually the one to give up on certain convictions in order to reach new heights. Here, though? It plays off very well, with him doubling down on what he is and what his convictions are in order to show that giving up everything like Toppo did isn't the way to go.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:47 pm

Asura wrote:The biggest takeaway here is the person who wrote this episode was also responsible for Episode 119.
I didn't know this before I typed my review, but this makes a lot more sense as to why this episode didn't deliver for me on the writing front.
"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

-Adam from YourMovieSucksDOTorg
(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:54 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Kinokima wrote:Yes I enjoyed that Vegeta finally got a win but this was in no way just a rehash of Final Atonement. And that’s why I liked it.


Vegeta wasn’t trying to sacrifice himself and that’s the whole point. He never once says this is the end and I am risking it all on this final attack. Piccolo is the only one who mistakes what Vegeta is doing. But if you pay attention to what Vegeta says he is not trying to give up his life. I am not saying there wasn’t a risk to what Vegeta was trying to do but I think there is evidence that he believed he would succeed and live. It wasn’t an episode about sacrifice like Final Atonement it was an episode about survival. It was Toppo’s survival vs Vegeta’s and what it actual means to survive. And Vegeta sacrificing himself would have missed the entire point.

Also Vegeta thinking of his family and Cabba wasn’t just him thinking of things he was fighting for but things he needed to win and live for. Cabba is the perfect counterpoint. Because Vegeta keeps mentioning that promise to Cabba. How could he have kept that promise to Cabba if he had any intention of dying?


Anyways if you didn’t get any meaning from the episode that’s perfectly fine. People interpret things differently after all. But I don’t like that people discount the meaning I got from the episode. Yes I liked the Vegeta finally beat a villain but I am not so shallow to only enjoy the episode for that. I enjoyed it for its themes and how Vegeta to me has actually grown even since Final Atonement since I dong think sacrificing yourself is the only noble action one can take. I don’t see anything vapid about this episode and I am not blinded because I got something out of this episode that others didn’t.

And yeah I do like Final Atonement more because in terms of significance to Vegeta’s character arc well is hard to beat that episode but I still see new growth for Vegeta here. It’s definitely not just the same thing again at all.


As for Vegeta being back to full power next episode I admit that is bad writing but I’d just like to wait and see how they handle it. Anyways logically this episode had some flaws but thematically it was a strong episode. I can’t make people like what they don’t but I don’t like the idea that people are “blinded by epicness” because they see value in something other people don’t.
Took the words out of my mouth, good sir/madam/squid.

I liked how the ideas actually played out, as I felt they provided an interesting contrast to expectations and played off of each other well. We see some good payoff that compounds just how far the character of Vegeta as come, as well as an excellent role reversal with Toppo, since Vegeta is usually the one to give up on certain convictions in order to reach new heights. Here, though? It plays off very well, with him doubling down on what he is and what his convictions are in order to show that giving up everything like Toppo did isn't the way to go.
Explain to me how this moment was any different than his Final Flash against Jiren? He won this time, but otherwise the idea behind both of these attacks were exactly the same. The speech was basically exactly the same (blah blah I'm a prideful person I won't ever give up my pride) which by the way is also nothing new. Vegeta won't give up who he is to get stronger, he'll always have his pride. That's literally been his character since his inception.

It is the exact same shit you have heard, and basically seen (replace Final Flash with Final Explosion, and Jiren winning with Toppo losing) just a few episodes ago.

This does nothing for Vegeta's character that wasn't already there. If Vegeta made yet ANOTHER SPEECH two episodes from now talking about the same shit with pride and his promise to Cabba and/or his family, I'd be willing to bet there would be people here saying again how much that speech and that moment did for Vegeta's character. Literally every time the guy gives a speech people think that gives him character development and makes him a "deeper" character, despite the fact that these speeches are almost exactly the same every single time. You could probably go back to the FT arc and find a similar speech, except it would have actually had meaning because of his relationship with Future Trunks and how he contrasts with Black or Zamasu. In here, there is nothing like that, and Toppo is certainly no Black in terms of rivals for Vegeta.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:01 pm

Asura wrote:Remember how the ring was super decimated last episode to the point where everyone was fighting by jumping from floating rock to floating rock? Guess they forgot about it all on this episode, because while you do see some rocks floating in the background, everyone is magically fighting on the main stage again!

The uniqueness of the fighting arena is done away with this episode. Toppo's intimidating, god-like presence is done away with this episode. Freeza getting the living shit beaten out of him is done away with this episode (despite spending like 2 minutes of showing how the last episode ended with Freeza getting destroyed, he's now back up perfectly fine minutes later in this episode). 17's tactician mindset is done away with this episode (collapsing fucking rocks on a GoD is not a strategy).

And most importantly, all emotion was done away with in this episode. They tried to make Vegeta's "sacrifice" moment just as special and emotional as the first time it happened against Buu, and even though Vegeta wasn't intending on sacrificing himself here, there was still zero emotion behind all of it. His speech was the same shit we heard for the past 3 episodes. Like, he's literally just giving the same speech over and over again. The final explosion attack came out of nowhere and was completely unnecessary. The only reason it even existed was to do YET ANOTHER CALLBACK TO Z. We're getting one once a week now whether we like it or not. Vegeta was already winning and canceling out every single one of Toppo's attacks with just his punches. Why did he even need to do this attack? Why did we need to hear the same speech again? Is it just because whenever Vegeta makes a speech that automatically makes the moment "epic"? Everyone who thought this speech about Cabba and protecting his family did so much for Vegeta's character, do you literally ignore or forget the speeches he makes in the past whenever he makes a new speech? Because if you've been paying attention you'll notice he has said all of this shit in previous speeches before. It does nothing to build on his character, all of his words are meaningless because we've already heard them before. This episode does nothing for Vegeta as a character besides give him a win that honestly didn't even feel deserved. Vegeta vs Toppo should have been one of the premiere fights of the tournament, with the advantage heavily thrown in the GoD's favor, yet they only fight for about half an episode here, and Vegeta curbstomps him.

I honestly have so much more to say about how much of a failure this episode was and how it might be one of the most disappointing episodes of the tournament, but I don't feel like typing out a massive rant and break-down of it. It just dropped the ball in every single aspect, with every single character, in every single moment, and killed all of the tension that was found in last week's episode. Remember how most of us were thinking last week "Woah, there's some actual tension here now. Jiren is unstoppable by himself but now Toppo is a God of Destruction? How will our heroes stand a chance against that?"

The biggest takeaway here is the person who wrote this episode was also responsible for Episode 119. That alone should tell you all you need to know as to why this episode's writing was such a disorienting disaster. Sorry Hisao Ayumu, but you are a god awful writer. Please choose a different profession, or write for a show you're more comfortable with or something, I don't know. The fact that you have only written two episodes for Super and both have been possibly the worst written episodes in the entire series should tell you all you need to know as to why you should never be working on anything Dragon Ball related again.
Holy ffff----- he wrote THAT episode 119? No wonder. I agree, I appreciated some of the ideas in the episode, like Vegeta getting a major win and his selfless pride, but man as a whole was that executed so terribly.

The whole rocks bit by 17 was just... wow. Honestly wow, and I don't say that in a praising manner.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:03 pm

Asura wrote:Explain to me how this moment was any different than his Final Flash against Jiren? He won this time, but otherwise the idea behind both of these attacks were exactly the same. The speech was basically exactly the same (blah blah I'm a prideful person I won't ever give up my pride) which by the way is also nothing new. Vegeta won't give up who he is to get stronger, he'll always have his pride. That's literally been his character since his inception.

It is the exact same shit you have heard, and basically seen (replace Final Flash with Final Explosion, and Jiren winning with Toppo losing) just a few episodes ago.

This does nothing for Vegeta's character that wasn't already there. If Vegeta made yet ANOTHER SPEECH two episodes from now talking about the same shit with pride and his promise to Cabba and/or his family, I'd be willing to bet there would be people here saying again how much that speech and that moment did for Vegeta's character. Literally every time the guy gives a speech people think that gives him character development and makes him a "deeper" character, despite the fact that these speeches are almost exactly the same every single time. You could probably go back to the FT arc and find a similar speech, except it would have actually had meaning because of his relationship with Future Trunks and how he contrasts with Black or Zamasu. In here, there is nothing like that, and Toppo is certainly no Black in terms of rivals for Vegeta.
What's different is the contrast to Toppo, who basically pulled a Majin Vegeta and stepped into Vegeta's shoes way back when by giving up the ways of justice to ascend to the realm of the Hakaishin.

This is further compounded by the fact that he actually lives through his own Final Explosion, showing just how far his determination and, well, stubbornness has taken him. It helps that Jiren has some pretty harsh words to give, how pathetic Toppo was that he gave everything up and STILL lost, how well Vegeta had done without giving up his convictions.

It's not the fact that Vegeta has made further speeches. It's the fact that everytime he does, he advances further and continues to showcase the merits of him doubling down. First, he impresses Jiren. Then, he ascends to a power beyond Blue. And now, he's defeated an opponent whom has breached the realm of the Hakaishin. The fact that Vegeta can now chastise a person like Toppo for making the same mistakes that he did is icing on the cake for my.

I won't pretend that this'll convince you, nor will you likely convince me. I've come to understand that, like Vegeta, we all double down on our own convictions, so we might as well admit that that's how it's gonna be.

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